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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11928937 -

so everything not death is minutae?
?
one thing is biggenned and other stuff is smallend.

this is gestural mentation, theater, as opposed to philosophy,
maybe even politics.

what are we finding?
are we learning anything new?

anyway, I think the claim is wrong, buddha allowed death a position on the wheel of life, he focussed on suffering not death, your big idea is only 1/12th as big as you thought.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11929011 -

You continue to ignore where suffering comes from, the root cause. You had your chance to provide examples for examination and you copped out. Quit whining now.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11929026 -

Quote:
Well it seems almost impossible at the moment, talk to any robotics engineer that deals with self awareness & they'll tell you its difficult, almost impossible territory for science to deal with. Science uses consciousness, but it doesnt understand what it is, i don't think it ever will, as its not a measurable tangible 'thing


Partly this is how I came to believe that perception actually precedes matter. I don't think its ever possible, i don't think computers can ever achieve self awareness. It's impossible to imagine how computers can ever give rise to the intangible experience that is our minds. How do physical things combine to form an intagible experience? They cant and dont so I believe in something called the soul. what son ?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929109 -

Icelander said:
Well lets go into this (in simple terms please). What would cause you anxiety if you were immortal? No death decay disfigurement, all the time in the world to put any problem off. No survival issues. Now how much would make you anxious?


Give a couple examples if you have them.


Anxiety may be the driving force, but why must it be described in such a way?
Tension seems more fitting to me. Like magnets repelling each other. You can observe the repelling without becoming anxious about it.

In other words, placing the forces at play outside of yourself, not inside. Life and death are bigger than you.


And as for examples of what could cause this same repelling if immortal...
the Buddha talks about many
desires for example: you could desire a woman and never get her. If you do not let go of that desire, you will suffer for it. For eternity if your desire is strong enough and you've got the time :shrug:

Now you may say, why would I strive for a woman if I never had to fear dying? No need for kids, no need for sexual interactions. Sure, that's plausible.

But, I'd have to ask a question in response. Are you suggesting that if we could not die, our existence is automatically blissful? That simply knowing we can be around forever would kill any drive for entertainment? We wouldn't want to enjoy our immortality, we'd be content just not dying? Heh...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (01/30/10 12:00 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929199 -

I think of we were immortal  our desire for entertainment would be based in other needs. There would be no knowledge of death and no anxiety about it and one would move to other concerns.

But at base I'm saying for us it's death anxiety. (tension? as if that word somehow makes a difference to the unconscious) Doesn't mean we also don't seek entertainment for pleasure and to relieve boredom etc.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929255 -

Kickle said:
Now you may say, why would I strive for a woman if I never had to fear dying? No need for kids, no need for sexual interactions. Sure, that's plausible.

But, I'd have to ask a question in response. Are you suggesting that if we could not die, our existence is automatically blissful? That simply knowing we can be around forever would kill any drive for entertainment? We wouldn't want to enjoy our immortality, we'd be content just not dying? Heh...


The things that I find to bring some of the most pleasure usually if not always revolve around the idea of death and our organisms struggle for survival. Food, sleep, sex, these things are some of the most enjoyable pleasures within this animal and it makes sense to me that an organism would put the most pleasure and value on those things that which are needed to survive.

It doesn't seem to me that immortality would be blissful but rather without the motivation of survival it wouldn't make sense for our organism to find these acts as pleasurable or satisfying as they were, now that they are entirely unnecessary.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929262 -

Your unconscious isn't the one making posts. That's why the phrasing becomes important (IMO).

There are many who believe we are immortal and are already working on these other concerns. Do you suggest that they are doing so out of death anxiety? If so, isn't that advantageous because they have moved into the same realm as the immortal in terms of pushes and pulls? Or is that an arbitrary judgment of what it is best to concern one's self with?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Tropism]
    #11929290 -

Tropism said:
The things that I find to bring some of the most pleasure usually if not always revolve around the idea of death and our organisms struggle for survival. Food, sleep, sex, these things are some of the most enjoyable pleasures within this animal and it makes sense to me that an organism would put the most pleasure and value on those things that which are needed to survive.

It doesn't seem to me that immortality would be blissful but rather without the motivation of survival it wouldn't make sense for our organism to find these acts as pleasurable or satisfying as they were, now that they are entirely unnecessary.


It always comes back to meaning for me. We use our mortality to provide meaning for our physical functions. If we take that away, where do we look for meaning? To me that would be a significant source of tension as well.

But mortal or immortal, we're attempting to place meaning onto something that may not have any inherent meaning.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929373 -

I'm not discussing meaning, I'm talking of our base animal desires and why they are in place and as gratifying as they are. Chemical reactions, not meaning.

If we were immortal why would the human organism make sex as pleasurable and desirable as it is without anything to gain and without any survival value?

I'm not asking if it would still be meaningful, but would it still be physically desireable, or pleasurable. The majority of our time is spent on things that continue our survival and the survival of our species, and these things are appropriately emotionally rewarding. The things that seem most rewarding in this experience have to do with survival, which has to do with death. So how can one suggest that death doesn't loom within our motivations?

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11929442 -

Kickle said:
Your unconscious isn't the one making posts. That's why the phrasing becomes important (IMO).

There are many who believe we are immortal and are already working on these other concerns. Do you suggest that they are doing so out of death anxiety? If so, isn't that advantageous because they have moved into the same realm as the immortal in terms of pushes and pulls? Or is that an arbitrary judgment of what it is best to concern one's self with?



Absolutely I believe they are doing it out of death anxiety. Shields are shields and we all need them. Whatever works for you. You have to ask the question then is it really working for me in a way that gives me some real satisfaction in life? For instance a Christian may adopt a belief in the afterlife to quell their anxiety about non existence, but this shield requires that they abandon may of the things they would really like to be doing in life.

And for myself I would say my unconscious effects all of my conscious actions. Including how and what I post here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929521 -

Icelander said:
You continue to ignore where suffering comes from, the root cause. You had your chance to provide examples for examination and you copped out. Quit whining now.:nono:


I don't ignore the source of suffering,
as much as I am aware of each root cause,
which are each connected to craving,
and that is a very general tropism,
it easily entangles as attachment,
and that usually resolves as suffering, if the release is not timely.

That process in itself is a huge area that people often misunderstand or assume to be limited only to specific cravings.

Any one of the possible cravings might be involved with death, or as many as one in twelve (statistically) might be, but not all cravings are related to death, except indirectly through the wheel of life, which relates all 12 points to each other via rim and spokes.

how is this approach to clearing up this issue taken as whining, copping out, or ignoring of the facts?

plain and simple - the way you are now mis-attributing your death obsession idea to Buddha is in the category of wrong thought & wrong speech & wrong action (i.e. by intent to dominate a conversation and attribute merit by assignment of a reference to a historical figure) this links to your personal fixation and craving, and this leads you additional suffering for you.

we do not need to make this bigger than it is.
only one thing is happier when embiggenned, ask Veritas.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Tropism]
    #11929546 -

Quote:
I'm not discussing meaning, I'm talking of our base animal desires and why they are in place and as gratifying as they are. Chemical reactions, not meaning.

If we were immortal why would the human organism make sex as pleasurable and desirable as it is without anything to gain and without any survival value?



chemical reactions
vs
pleasure, desire, gratification


To me, you're blending meaning into physiology. And its very obvious to me that things aren't as black and white as evolution would have us believe. Depending on the meaning we attribute to sex, it can become more torture than pleasure. This self attributed meaning overrides everything that our physical world would tell us it should be. Chemicals can be influenced by thought, and thought can be influenced by chemicals. It is not a one-way street.

therefore when you say:
"I'm not asking if it would still be meaningful, but would it still be physically desireable, or pleasurable"

I cannot hear a difference. If it is meaningful, it has the potential to be physically desirable. And if it is physically desirable, it has the potential to be meaningful. I cannot separate out these two concepts.


Quote:
The majority of our time is spent on things that continue our survival and the survival of our species, and these things are appropriately emotionally rewarding.


There is sooooo much variation in this regard. Everyone eats, yes, and it keeps us alive, yes. Does that mean that every time we eat, we do so because we're afraid of death? Really? No one can eat because they want to have energy to pursue x,y, or z? The meaning is inflexible? I don't buy it. That's why I say we're placing meaning onto something that may not hold any inherent meaning. Yes, we have a will to survive. No, I don't have a clue why. I'm more than a little reluctant to say that it is due to a fear of death. That's speculation IMO, and comes from the interaction between observing and then giving meaning. We observe something and assume it has meaning. But, what if it doesn't? People eat for a LOT of reasons. And even when we don't account for the myriad of alternative reasons, when we peel it back to the earliest days of our eating, why would we be assured that eating resulted from a fear of death? Why is hunger not a sufficient reason? Chemicals in the body being released that are metaphorically saying, "hey, this is what I need to fulfill my function". That there is no meaning behind hunger, but rather that it is a function of living tissue. To say that the chemicals are sending signals because they are afraid of death, well, OK, but how the hell do you know that? Seems like a pretty good leap and attribution of meaning to me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (01/30/10 01:47 PM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11929625 -

Any one of the possible cravings might be involved with death, or as many as one in twelve (statistically) might be, but not all cravings are related to death, except indirectly through the wheel of life, which relates all 12 points to each other via rim and spokes.

Not indirectly but directly connected. All cravings have there roots in the anxiety of "not having" or loss of which the ultimate loss is of the self.

The idea of right thinking and all that shit are imo religious magical recipes for negation of suffering in the same way that following the Ten Commandments are. But in reality are distractions or shields from the fact of death and an attempt to negate it's effects. Which ultimately is impossible. Imo that's why there was only one "buddha" and millions of buddhists.

Again I would like to see an example of some craving or attachment that is not connected to death anxiety.

btw I got on to this whole idea from Veritas who believes everything is related to death anxiety so that appeal to authority is fail.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929652 -

so I wanna bang chicks becaue im afraid of dying? hmmmmm...


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11929708 -

Icelander said:
btw I got on to this whole idea from Veritas who believes everything is related to death anxiety so that appeal to authority is fail.


I don't appeal to Veritas to authorize, but only to embiggen that part of your self which must be neglected for you so to be fixated on death.

this is a known physiological side effect of lack of sex -
a person gets so distracted they think they're gonna die
they embiggen the idea of death!
it's just sex addiction!

you know that,
and if you don't your winkie does.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: soldatheero]
    #11930074 -

soldatheero said:
so I wanna bang chicks becaue im afraid of dying? hmmmmm...


Yup. At least it certainly could be. think on it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11930085 -

this is a known physiological side effect of lack of sex -
a person gets so distracted they think they're gonna die
they embiggen the idea of death!
it's just sex addiction!

Well I'd like to see the links to this specific idea of yours.  Not saying it couldn't be true but lets have the link.

Veritas must have the same addiction cause she seems a little focused on this idea too.:wink: I'll let her know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11930563 -

Well between you two i think that yes, while attachement is a larger part of this whole death thing it's a bigger part that 1/12 but yes attachement is a great blanket term. Death anxiety is after, all only an attachement to the self, wouldn't you agree?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11930615 -

I'm not in agreement with his position. It's not comfortable to face the the possibility that one is really all about fear and self importance and that all our concerns come down to this.

But I'm not sure what  you mean by "only" an attachment to the self. Everything for us is about ourselves. This has been discussed to death here.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11931378 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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