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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953510 -

Some relevant brain biology for you Iceman

Brain structure:
Hypothalamus

Functions:
  • Regulation of the endorcrine system (hormones related to the four F's: Fighting, fleeing, feeding, and fucking)
  • Temperature
  • Hunger and Thirst
  • Defense Reactions (automatic reactions to threat, i.e. hair raising on a cat)
  • Sexual behaviors


That last one is a biggy. You cut out the hypothalamus, you will witness no sexual behaviors. The same is true for hunger. You legion the hypothalamus (a very specific nucleus within it actaully) and you will get no hunger response. You can set whatever delicious food you want in front of a rat with this part legioned, and they will not eat it.

So, simply enough, this is what gives us our sex drive, and this is what gives us our hunger. Without these, nothing says "eat" or "fuck", nothing says "flee" or "fight". Without this part of the brain, everything else in the system fails.

But we're not interested in just those sensations, we're also interested in how they interact with emotions and memory. Because we don't just eat anything that is set in front of us. We eat what we know tastes good, and avoid those things that we know don't. We don't startle at every stimuli, we startle at those that we know can harm us. Knowing that the removal of the hypothalamus will remove any startle response is not going to tell us why we startle only at specific stimuli. It simply tells us where it originates.

The hypothalamus has inputs into the thalamus where it meets up with inputs from the amygdala. The amygdala seems to be related to our interpretation of stimuli as fear invoking ,or not, in accordance with memory. So if we have a memory that suggests "this is scary" the amygdala is going to send the appropriate signals. You legion this part, and fear disappears. So the interaction between the amygdala saying "this is to be feared" and the hypothalamus which says "start the endocrine system" results in our bodily sensations of fearful stimuli. Then this information is passed on to the prefrontal cortex which makes a decision. What do I do with this information? I now know 1) my body is ready to act and 2) something I know I should fear is present

In other words, legion either of those parts of the brain and a fear of death does not exist. Moreover, I can not imagine that they are activated without the presence of something to fear. What we fear can vary greatly from person to person, and often times has no relation to death at all. For example, in social phobia, the amygdala will be activated due to the associated memory of prior social interactions. This will start the fear response and all those anxiety symptoms will quickly emerge. The same process occurs for someone with a gun held to their head. It is possible that some individuals find thoughts of death to be anxiety provoking, just as a social situation can produce thoughts that do the same, but there must be something associated with it.

Perhaps a memory of extreme pain being associated with death, or something that is to be feared from the experience of death (isolation, unknown, whatever). I'm sure that expectations about what death represents is enough to spur a reaction. So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death or faced with the potential of dying. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.). Plus other thoughts can trigger the very same system. It is not a unique phenomena of human experience.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/03/10 10:45 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953551 -

Shield what? The most basic treatise of Buddhism is not-self.

You are asserting and conditioning the self by the idea of its annihilation.

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953566 -

Interesting stuff. I'll run it by V and she can explain it to me.:lol:

So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.).

I believe that a reason we don't think about death all the time is we push it into the unconscious. Death is the biggie. How could one not think about it all the time. You could die at any moment? But one has to not think about it to stay sane and get on with life. So shields, and pushing that trauma underground would ultimately be the best shield.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11953588 -

daytripper23 said:
Shield what? The most basic treatise of Buddhism is not-self.

You are asserting and conditioning the self by the idea of its annihilation.



The idea of not self is the shield. No self, no death.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: daytripper23]
    #11953608 -

Quote:
But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death or faced with the potential of dying. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it.


There are a ton of situations in life which could provoke thoughts of death. The examples you provide are a very limited range of these situations. Unless, of course you disagree with the idea of the unconscious mind and think all thoughts have to flitter across the mind consciously to have any impact on the psyche I can't see why you would disagree with the idea of death anxiety affecting us given the rest of your post.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953644 -

Icelander said:
Interesting stuff. I'll run it by V and she can explain it to me.:lol:

So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.).

I believe that a reason we don't think about death all the time is we push it into the unconscious. Death is the biggie. How could one not think about it all the time. You could die at any moment? But one has to not think about it to stay sane and get on with life. So shields, and pushing that trauma underground would ultimately be the best shield.


I don't buy the unconscious bit because I don't think there is anything inherent in death to fear. We attach meaning to death, and that is what we fear. And we can consciously know what meaning we attach to death. Otherwise the fear of death only arises when sufficient stimuli are present to spur a response.

Much in the same way that a person who is afraid of spiders may have the potential to run into a spider at any given point of time, the fear is not always present. It only becomes present when a spider is around, or when they are thinking of a spider, etc.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953662 -

Grapefruit said:
Quote:
But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death or faced with the potential of dying. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it.


There are a ton of situations in life which could provoke thoughts of death.


Care to give me an example?

Quote:
The examples you provide are a very limited range of these situations.


Yeah, I recognize that. I'm not going to list everything that people can become afraid of. It still relies upon a process of association, though. You don't come to fear driving just because it has the potential to kill you. You come to fear driving after you get into an accident which spurs the knowledge, holy shit, I could have died. Or you witness a brutal car accident, etc. 

edit: And from what we know of association, they can strengthen or weaken over time, depending on how predictive they are. So the associated fear of death when driving will either strengthen (you get in another wreck) or weaken (you drive for a year without anything happening). At that point, the association weakens, which means that your amygdala has no reason to be activated while driving. Meaning you have no fear related to death at that point in time.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953664 -

Death and impermanence are everywhere, damn near constantly. Didn't you notice?


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953669 -

The heart that you feel beating, the tree near; you see wilting. Death is the very fabric of life.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #11953682 -

Yeah, but until it is predictive of something, it don't mean shit to you nor your brain. If you want to project yourself years into the future, that's fine. You can feel fear that has no reason to be. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'll stick to keeping myself here and now, and thus, feeling it when it happens in the now.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953705 -

Kickle said:
Icelander said:
Interesting stuff. I'll run it by V and she can explain it to me.:lol:

So yes, in a sense these "shields" you talk about could be ways of avoiding the activation of this system. But IMO they would only occur in very specific situations. Ones in which a person is actively thinking about death. And as far as I can tell, death does not often cross an individuals mind without something external to provoke it (old age, extreme danger, posts about it, etc.).

I believe that a reason we don't think about death all the time is we push it into the unconscious. Death is the biggie. How could one not think about it all the time. You could die at any moment? But one has to not think about it to stay sane and get on with life. So shields, and pushing that trauma underground would ultimately be the best shield.


I don't buy the unconscious bit because I don't think there is anything inherent in death to fear. We attach meaning to death, and that is what we fear. And we can consciously know what meaning we attach to death. Otherwise the fear of death only arises when sufficient stimuli are present to spur a response.

Much in the same way that a person who is afraid of spiders may have the potential to run into a spider at any given point of time, the fear is not always present. It only becomes present when a spider is around, or when they are thinking of a spider, etc.



I think you and I have been over this. If you don't agree then you don't. :shrug: I'm not out to convince you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953721 -

But I am out to convince you :evil2:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953732 -

Then you need to try harder. I think we are more run by unconscious motivation then conscious.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953738 -

I show V your post on brain function.

Yes, he is correctly describing the functions of the hypothalamus and amygdala.  However, his "theory" that humans are rarely confronted with evidence of mortality is absurd to the extreme.  Death anxiety can certainly be intensified by overt reminders of death, but one cannot avoid the internal awareness of mortality unless one has never realized it in the first place.

It is this internal awareness which fuels death anxiety, and we carry it with us wherever we go.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953754 -

I don't disagree about there being an unconscious.
I disagree that the unconscious can influence our brain without first going through conscious awareness (in some form).


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953759 -

Quote:
Yeah, but until it is predictive of something, it don't mean shit to you nor your brain. If you want to project yourself years into the future, that's fine. You can feel fear that has no reason to be. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'll stick to keeping myself here and now, and thus, feeling it when it happens in the now.


Fair enough if you can do that, sorry on the passive agression, it happens.



I'm sitting on the banks watchin' life drift away...


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953773 -

Icelander said:
I show V your post on brain function.

Yes, he is correctly describing the functions of the hypothalamus and amygdala.  However, his "theory" that humans are rarely confronted with evidence of mortality is absurd to the extreme.  Death anxiety can certainly be intensified by overt reminders of death, but one cannot avoid the internal awareness of mortality unless one has never realized it in the first place.

It is this internal awareness which fuels death anxiety, and we carry it with us wherever we go.




Perhaps my "theory" was misunderstood.
I'm not suggesting that we don't know we're mortal at any given point and time. I'm suggesting that it does not invoke any form of anxiety until it reaches levels of predictability. When it becomes predictive, the amygdala either runs on information from the hypothalamus which suggests DO SOMETHING or draws on a related memory/association and the appropriate brain functions are activated, giving the sensation of fear/anxiety/whatever you want to call fight/flight responses.

That is what the spider bit was all about. A person never "forgets" they are afraid of spiders, but without the amygdala being activated, no fear is felt. It requires conscious thought or external stimulation before a response is issued from the brain.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/03/10 11:46 AM)

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Kickle]
    #11953808 -


That is what the spider bit was all about. A person never "forgets" they are afraid of spiders, but without the amygdala being activated, no fear is felt. It requires conscious thought or external stimulation before a response is issued from the brain.

OK but reminders abound as was pointed out.  Nature and decay, aging and dying parents and friends, news reports, etc. We pretend not to notice because it is everywhere. Anxiety may be a better term then overt fear. I felt constant anxiety as a kid. Yet I still got my homework done and no one seemed to notice.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11953828 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Buddha and Becker on the problem. [Re: Icelander]
    #11953861 -

:shrug:
Someone with social phobia might say the same thing about the world around them. There are constant reminders that they may have to interact with someone else.

Does this make it an inescapable reality?

They fear social interactions, and then by extension, see something to fear in anything that reminds them of this. Others may not find these cues so frightening. Why is this? Because these other stimuli do not hold fear within them. The individual who fears social situations brings that fear with them.

Death is all around us, but it doesn't hold any meaning unless it is effecting you in some way. For myself, it spurs anxiety when it threatens well-being to my body. That is what I bring with me, a fear of pain. For others, due to the meaning they have attributed to death (just as a shield attributes meaning) they may fear the mere thought of it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/03/10 12:02 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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