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OfflineLion
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I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin
    #6501917 - 01/27/07 12:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You are a robot. This is the first thing you must accept on the road to liberation. Whether or not you are a tabula rasa, a blank slate, when you are born, or there is some spark of uniqueness which allows your mind to react differently to the world than someone else would in your exact situation, the undeniable fact remains: you are a robot.

You are biologically programmed through the act of human reproduction, you are emotionally and linguistically programmed by your parents and all those with whom you interact, and you are programmed to live within certain systems (rational, calendric, numeric, religious, scholastic, etc.) by your parent-culture.

So, you're a freakin' robot. Get over yourself already. The way you act and react is pre-determined by the reality you are born into.

Yet, you seek. What are most of us here on The Shroomery seeking? We are seeking to alter the chemical base on which our consciousness rests in order to understand our consciousness in and of itself. When you reach a certain point in this chemical experimentation, you discover that you, like everyone else, is a robot absorbing a billion inputs and outputting signals based on the sum of your programming: we are all connected in that we receive signals, synthesize them, and produce new signals. The 9/11 hijackers received paranoid/hateful signals, and produced them, causing their own demise and the demise of thousands of others: they were paranoid robots.

What you have to do to break the chain of paranoia is WAKE UP. By waking up, I mean you have to realize that you are the product of the fears and hopes of others: once you begin to see clearly what those fears and hopes are, you are able to alter your reality in order to wake the other robots up, and in doing so you realize that being Enlightened means giving and receiving compassionate signals with your fellow robots and learning how to rid yourself of paranois signals.

So, a human is someone who feels compassion and paranoia but is not awake enough to understand his own intent as part of a larger whole - he thus acts according to the ratio of compassionate to paranoid inputs which he has received in his life: obviously this varies in every single individual.

A robot is a thing which cannot compute compassion or paranoia, but which has an unbending computational (input-synthesis-output) intent with regards to its reality.

What is a holy [wo]man, then? A holy man, a realized being, is someone who is able to compute levels of compassion and paranoia in his fellow hum-bots, and act with unbending intent to tip their scales towards compassion.

You can't run away. Your karma is not your own, it is the karma of your family, your peers, the old woman serving you your hotdog at the ballpark - and as you gain a larger perspective, your karma is the karma of the World: you cannot transcend this earthly plane through meditation or psychedelics: you can either Be Here Now, acting on compassionate impulse, or you can be an input-output drone and wander around confused and frustrated (and, of course, occassionally compassionate) until you die and cease to exist.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Edited by Lion (01/27/07 12:40 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6501972 - 01/27/07 12:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

from the yin and yang of seeing and doing
a base robotron response ignores the meta seeing and doing
& a
buddha robotron response attends opportunity to make things better,
sees through the base robo-nature & hooks up with what is happenning.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6501973 - 01/27/07 12:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Must?


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Gomp]
    #6502048 - 01/27/07 01:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
Must?


There is no such thing as must. I said 'what you have to do' - that means you Have It to Do if You choose To! I make the presumption that your inner Buddha-tron Model 07.1 would prefer to wake up from its slumber, but hey, I don't know you, and also, what the hell is preference in a [W]Hol[l]y Computer?!


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502059 - 01/27/07 01:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

in a dream last night I was talking with my wife, and I really knew it was a dream but I did not want to disabuse her of the fact while we were both enjoying it so much but I did eventually share and she already knew!


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502063 - 01/27/07 01:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

believing oneself to be a robot, one becomes a robot.
believing oneself to be the divine source of all, one sees they always have been the divine source of all.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: thatiAM]
    #6502112 - 01/27/07 01:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"you cannot transcend this earthly plane through meditation or psychedelics:"

what makes you so sure? these are tools of awakening yes?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: thatiAM]
    #6502119 - 01/27/07 01:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

thatiAM said:
believing oneself to be a robot, one becomes a robot.
believing oneself to be the divine source of all, one sees they always have been the divine source of all.


So are you under the impression that you are the divine source of all? If you are indeed the divine source of all, I've got a bone or two to pick with you, though if you teach me how to surf Bansai Pipeline I'll call it even all the way.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: leery11]
    #6502140 - 01/27/07 02:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
"you cannot transcend this earthly plane through meditation or psychedelics:"

what makes you so sure? these are tools of awakening yes?


They are tools of awakening, but awakening to what? How many people do you know who have meditated their way or psychedelicked their way to Formlessness? Unless you know someone who has suffocated himself doing advanced breathing exercises or overdosing on ketamine, I am guessing the likely answer is NONE.

The only thing to awaken to is the finite nature of your body and mind and the ability of the human mind to be simultaneously compassionate and self-serving. Psychedelics and meditation can help you awaken to what you already have, so they are good tools, but they will not help you attain Formlessness/En-Light-enment any more than rubbing one out or riding a bicycle blinfolded into oncoming traffic.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502207 - 01/27/07 02:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The only thing to awaken to is the finite nature of your body and mind and the ability of the human mind to be simultaneously compassionate and self-serving. Psychedelics and meditation can help you awaken to what you already have, so they are good tools, but they will not help you attain Formlessness/En-Light-enment any more than rubbing one out or riding a bicycle blinfolded into oncoming traffic.




There is no bodhi tree,
Nor stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?


Between compassion and selfishness, compassion seems to be the best and most appropriate/natural way of expressing the mind. However, as Hui-Neng so eloquently phrases it above, there is no mind. As far as awakening to what you already have...what's there to have and who's there to have it?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6502222 - 01/27/07 02:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
from the yin and yang of seeing and doing
a base robotron response ignores the meta seeing and doing
& a
buddha robotron response attends opportunity to make things better,
sees through the base robo-nature & hooks up with what is happenning.





Nice!:)


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: dblaney]
    #6502275 - 01/27/07 03:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
There is no bodhi tree,
Nor stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?


Between compassion and selfishness, compassion seems to be the best and most appropriate/natural way of expressing the mind. However, as Hui-Neng so eloquently phrases it above, there is no mind. As far as awakening to what you already have...what's there to have and who's there to have it?


I just do not understand this perspective. I have never seen anything as Void. I am fully aware that I am not 'unique' in the sense that I was not born into this world with a spark which allows me to see differently - yet I see the world uniquely because the subjective reality I was born into was unique, and thus my desires are unique.

Knowing as I do that at some point I will cease to exist, why should I not seek pleasure? At worst I will not obtain sensual and emotional pleasure. At best I will. Either way I will die, and I have no conceptual idea of what it means to be dead. Nor do I have a conceptual idea of what it means to be liberated. I only know that it feels good to have sex, to surf, to play basketball, to eat a delicious meal, to have a conversation with an individual who sees the unfoldment of objective reality from a different subjective vantage point than me, to laugh, to make people smile, et cetera. That these are fleeting, that they stem from an unknowable initial input, is beside the point; they still give me pleasure so long as I seek to do these things with no expectation of a particular outcome.

The idea of liberation from the birth-death cycle is an illusion: as long as there is birth and death there will be the experience of pain, suffering, and all the other bad shit in this world - since I have no experiential basis for understanding the concept of 'liberation', while I have a very firm understanding of the term 'pleasure', why should I give up my desire for the latter? As long as I have no expectations about the outcome (and expectations are a very silly thing to have) I don't see why I shouldn't seek sensual and emotional pleasure.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


Edited by Lion (01/27/07 03:34 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502415 - 01/27/07 04:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I've had a shroom experience that felt like I was a robot.

Everything was meaningless as a robot would see it as matter of function only.

The feeling that made me feel robotic, was seeing the world in pure logic form. Its construct seemed so insignificant.

I responded to this insignificance as an insignificant being, droned to do what I was told, but it was cold despairing fact due to lack of stimuli.

I think eventually machines will want to live.


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: capliberty]
    #6502453 - 01/27/07 04:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
I've had a shroom experience that felt like I was a robot.

Everything was meaningless as a robot would see it as matter of function only.

The feeling that made me feel robotic, was seeing the world in pure logic form. Its construct seemed so insignificant.

I responded to this insignificance as an insignificant being, droned to do what I was told, but it was cold despairing fact due to lack of stimuli.

I think eventually machines will want to live.


'you' are a machine, and 'You' want to live.

I think eventually YOU will exist joyously at the center of this paradox.

But I could just be seeing in 'you' what I see in 'me', and what I want to see in 'Me'.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502524 - 01/27/07 05:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

As long as I have no expectations about the outcome (and expectations are a very silly thing to have) I don't see why I shouldn't seek sensual and emotional pleasure.




Well herein is the problem. If you do ANYTHING with the hope of pleasure, with the idea of pleasure, seeking for pleasure, then you are expecting that whatever it may be that you do will yield you pleasure.

Why do you have sex? Because you expect it will yield pleasure. Why do you surf and play basketball? Because you expect they will or may potentially give you pleasure.

So I see your statement as betraying a sort of dissonance: on the one hand you think you shouldn't expect pleasure in anything. You shouldn't do anything with any expectation for the outcome. Yet from your description, all the things that you do are done because you seek a certain outcome. You seek pleasure.

Quote:

Knowing as I do that at some point I will cease to exist, why should I not seek pleasure?




Dig deeper my friend. Who is this "I" that was created? Where did it come from? Who is it that will cease to exist? Who is this "I" who wants to seek pleasure?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: dblaney]
    #6502548 - 01/27/07 05:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

As long as I have no expectations about the outcome (and expectations are a very silly thing to have) I don't see why I shouldn't seek sensual and emotional pleasure.




Well herein is the problem. If you do ANYTHING with the hope of pleasure, with the idea of pleasure, seeking for pleasure, then you are expecting that whatever it may be that you do will yield you pleasure.

Why do you have sex? Because you expect it will yield pleasure. Why do you surf and play basketball? Because you expect they will or may potentially give you pleasure.

So I see your statement as betraying a sort of dissonance: on the one hand you think you shouldn't expect pleasure in anything. You shouldn't do anything with any expectation for the outcome. Yet from your description, all the things that you do are done because you seek a certain outcome. You seek pleasure.

Quote:

Knowing as I do that at some point I will cease to exist, why should I not seek pleasure?




Dig deeper my friend. Who is this "I" that was created? Where did it come from? Who is it that will cease to exist? Who is this "I" who wants to seek pleasure?


I want to understand what liberation means to you. You have come to the conclusion that you don't exist, that there can be no cause and no effect, and no third option, ergo we must be void.

What, then, will happen if I decide to blow up a building full of little children?

But I'm not nothing, and I don't want to do that! The fact that I have no uniqueness other than my subjective experience does not mean that I'm literally nothing! So what should I do???? To what end do "I" cultivate compassion and awareness if I do not exist, if there is no coming or going? It seems to me that if "I" am void yet "I" am experiencing myself, then cultivating anything is self-serving. If that is the case, then why not serve myself a bowl of chocolate ice-cream and a plane ticket to the Caribbean?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502630 - 01/27/07 06:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I want to understand what liberation means to you.




To me, liberation is what we are. Fundamentally, everything is liberated/awakened/enlightened. However, because of my confusion, delusion, and misunderstandings, I don't realize this. I 'understand' this to be so on a superficial level, but not down to my bones. It's like the difference between stating the name of food, and actually eating, processing, and assimilating the food.

Quote:

What, then, will happen if I decide to blow up a building full of little children?




Then the building will be destroyed, little children will be dead, and many people will be very upset.

Quote:

The fact that I have no uniqueness other than my subjective experience does not mean that I'm literally nothing! So what should I do???? To what end do "I" cultivate compassion and awareness if I do not exist, if there is no coming or going?




Perspective is key here. From the perspective of Absolute Truth (which is not other than relative or conventional truth), there is no you, no me, no chocolate ice cream, no coming, no going, no compassion, no awareness, no something, and no nothing. From the perspective of relative or conventional, everyday truth (which is not other than Absolute Truth), there is you, there is me, there is chocolate ice cream, there is coming there is going, there is joy, and there is pain.

Absolute Truth and relative truth are not different. A wonderful analogy is with the ocean. The water, in this case, is Absolute Truth, and the waves are the relative truth. Outside of the water, there can be no waves, and outside of the waves, there is no water. Waves are simply the function of the water.

HOWEVER, when waves do not realize that they are in fact part of one body of water, then there is an infinite schism between that wave and every other wave on the ocean.

While really there is nothing separating the wave from the water, the idea that the wave is separate in some way IS what is separating the wave from experiencing its oneness with the water.

Yet so long as the wave maintains its notion of being separate from the water, it strives to do anything and everything to maintain and serve this idea of a 'self', of a 'separated individuality'. It seeks after pleasure and avoids pain.

Yet when it realizes its oneness, there is no more pain and no more pleasure, as such, because pleasure and pain are relative. Something is only painful in relation to something that is not. Something is only pleasant in relation to something that is not. When the wave realizes its intrinsic oneness with the water, that it has always been the water, and that there is nothing outside of the water, then liberation is realized. And with it, true joy that is not dependent on the conditions of the ever changing sea.

Quote:

It seems to me that if "I" am void yet "I" am experiencing myself, then cultivating anything is self-serving.




I'm not sure what you mean by "'I' am experiencing myself". In fact, this is another form of separation: the view that there is an experiencer that is separate from the object of experience. Subject and object are just notions imposed on experience. Same with the notions of a subjective and objective world. Perhaps you could say that we ARE the objective world, experiencing ourselves.

Cultivation is not, IMO, what one should strive to do. Cultivating compassion and awareness is like trying to make paint white paint on a wall that is already white. When a wave understands that it is not separate from the ocean, yet observes that so many of the other waves on the ocean still think they are separate, compassion seems to arise naturally, of itself, without any effort on the part of the wave. Likewise, awareness is already here. There is no need to cultivate it. But it is helpful to train it to function properly, so that it doesn't chase after ideas and sensations. Letting it run all over the place has never proved to be conducive to realizing that we are the ocean.

Quote:

why not serve myself a bowl of chocolate ice-cream and a plane ticket to the Caribbean?




So long as it is the ocean that eats the ice cream and goes to the Caribbean, it is alright. But if it is the wave that eats the ice cream and goes to the Caribbean, then there is confusion. The wave still thinks of itself as separate.

Since the ocean does not harbor such ideas as 'self' and 'other', there would be no reason for it to seek pleasure in the form of ice cream or tropical vacations. However, if the circumstances were such that doing either of those would be compassionate and beneficial, then I'm sure the ocean would do either of those in a flash.

It's tricky though, because so long as you think that you're acting selflessly, you are in fact acting selfishly. Only when you don't act at all is there true selfless, compassionate action. That's why the sutras say that sages act without acting and speak without speaking.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502637 - 01/27/07 06:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bug said:
Quote:

thatiAM said:
believing oneself to be a robot, one becomes a robot.
believing oneself to be the divine source of all, one sees they always have been the divine source of all.


So are you under the impression that you are the divine source of all?  If you are indeed the divine source of all, I've got a bone or two to pick with you, though if you teach me how to surf Bansai Pipeline I'll call it even all the way.




Yes, just like you.  Pick your bones then :smile:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502650 - 01/27/07 06:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Liberation is not Nilhism(denial of relative truth, karma, etc). The question is not whether you exist or not, the question is how is your existence. Is it an independent, individual existence? Or is it dependent upon causes and conditions, i.e empty of inherent self-existence? If you investigate well, you can see that the ego-grasping mind is in fact the cause of all our anxiety and agitation. Only in knowing how things really are can free us from the chains of ignorance. (see cave of allegory)

Liberation means that you have full deep knowledge and understanding of the nature of existence of body speech and mind. Fully understanding the nature of mind, being in that direct understanding, means that you are liberated from ignorance, and no longer have to suffer the darkness of unknowing.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (01/27/07 06:47 PM)


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Invisiblebadreligion2good
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: thatiAM]
    #6502656 - 01/27/07 06:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Very strange, as I typed my original post a completely different post came up and erased EVERYTHING I TYPED!

Here are your greatest faults though:

You think you are a Buddha, but thinking is different from KNOWING AND EXPERIENCING. You won't experience your Buddha nature till you practice meditation, through meditation you will come experience the truth behind the process of birth, life, death, and rebirth as well.

You think your Karma isn't your own, but it is. Denying that is denying responsibility for all your actions. You are responsible for what you do, and there will be outcomes, its all too easy to blame things on others.

Indulging in sensual pleasures will bring you suffering. If you are mindful, you will realize this. How do you become mindful? By meditating.

These are just a few points I want to make, there are more to be made, but I don't have the desire to explain them.

I think its funny that you post on this message board proclaiming you are a Buddha, yet disagreeing with many of the Buddha's core teachings! Its outrageous. And, on top of that, you think you are right! You think that there is correct and incorrect. Thats a delusion! You think you are correct, and the Buddha is incorrect, but neither of you are, because thats just a thought.

You want to be a Buddha, meditate, till then, your Buddha nature is but a seed that will never grow, because it is not in the proper conditions. The proper conditions are described in the noble 8-fold path. There are the instructions to germinate the seed of Buddha nature.

You are not a Buddha till you experience it. You are simply thinking you are.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6502685 - 01/27/07 06:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bug said:
Quote:

leery11 said:
"you cannot transcend this earthly plane through meditation or psychedelics:"

what makes you so sure? these are tools of awakening yes?


They are tools of awakening, but awakening to what? How many people do you know who have meditated their way or psychedelicked their way to Formlessness? Unless you know someone who has suffocated himself doing advanced breathing exercises or overdosing on ketamine, I am guessing the likely answer is NONE.

The only thing to awaken to is the finite nature of your body and mind and the ability of the human mind to be simultaneously compassionate and self-serving. Psychedelics and meditation can help you awaken to what you already have, so they are good tools, but they will not help you attain Formlessness/En-Light-enment any more than rubbing one out or riding a bicycle blinfolded into oncoming traffic.




Meditation is part of the path of awakening. Cultivating mindfulness, awareness, one-pointedness is like creating the causes for the seed of enlightened potential to manifest i.e (awakening). In more direct schools of thought, it is said that meditation itself IS the expression of awakening.

In short, there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, and also, try not to denigrate what you do not understand.

Namaste :japsmile


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (01/27/07 08:25 PM)


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6502688 - 01/27/07 06:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

BTW, nice post badreligion :thumbup:


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Sinbad]
    #6502723 - 01/27/07 07:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The reason I don't like discussing Buddhism on this forum is because of posters like the one who started this thread.

So many people want to come up with excuses not to meditate. They read some peace of popular literature that says we all have Buddha-nature, so they think they are Buddhas by default. This is not what Buddhism teaches, as I have understood it. So they say, I don't need to meditate since I am already aware of my Buddha-nature! But they aren't really aware. They were just told that they had Buddha nature, so they think they do. How can they know for sure till they experience it though? They can't KNOW, they can only THINK.

I have found this message board is not a good place to discuss the Dharma and that it is wiser to visit a Buddhist forum for more insightful posts regarding Buddha, meditation, and the Dharma.

One last thing! I'm no robot! I may function like a robot sometimes, but I'm no robot. Being a robot is a choice, its a lack of mindfulness. Robots aren't mindful of their actions, they just act out their programming. I am aware of my actions, and can take note of them and realize why it is I am doing them. I'm not functioning on social programming, unless its appropriate at the moment. Very unlike a robot. It doesn't surprise me that you think you're a robot though.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


Edited by badreligion2good (01/27/07 07:22 PM)


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6502754 - 01/27/07 07:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ive always been of the opinion that the best place to plant seeds is in mud, not on stone.

Specific forums are where people have already discovered their paths, and want to know more. Places like the shroomery are where people are more open minded, and have spiritual inclination, so its much better for discussing general things. If im making a post about meditation or general mind related topics, then it can generate some interest in inner paths, or at least place causes where none existed.

S&P is a bit like a crossroads sometimes. People here are mostly intelligent open minded folk who are searching and contemplating the meaning of there existence. So its a very good place to plant seeds of all kinds.

P.S i don't think you a robot, you're a real boy! :lol:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (01/27/07 08:27 PM)


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Sinbad]
    #6503189 - 01/27/07 10:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I should say that I don't mean for anything I say to be taken literally - take it as a metaphor leading to an allegory: by examining the way in which I interact with reality through linguistic metaphor, I am trying to create a refractory image of myself so that I may better understand my own place in reality's unfoldment. You may read my words and find no meaning in them, or find something with which you take issue - coming back to my words in a month, you may find a whole new meaning, or a whole new level of contempt for the metaphor which I have tried to unfold in this thread. Such is the nature of the Mind, the Transparent Mirror.

All I want anyone to take out of this is a little faith in the capacity for compassion to emerge out of unfoldments whose roots seem to be in 'self'ish desire.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6503378 - 01/27/07 11:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badreligion2good said:
One last thing! I'm no robot! I may function like a robot sometimes, but I'm no robot. Being a robot is a choice, its a lack of mindfulness. Robots aren't mindful of their actions, they just act out their programming. I am aware of my actions, and can take note of them and realize why it is I am doing them. I'm not functioning on social programming, unless its appropriate at the moment. Very unlike a robot. It doesn't surprise me that you think you're a robot though.




This idea is entirely contingent on the idea that you have conscious free will. The idea behind bug claiming that everyone is a robot stems from an understanding that you are nothing without the experiences that make you something. Your path is inextricably tied to the experiences that make you choose that path. You cannot deviate from what you will decide. The decisions you make are based on the experiences that you have in order to make decisions. Although you may think that you could have acted differently in a situation when you look back this is in fact impossible. You are "programmed" by your experiences to act a certain way to certain stimuli. It is an inescapable fact that you are you and you cannot be anyone else. Your thoughts are controlled by the way you think which is a result of you combined experiences and nothing else. You may think that you think freely but that is only because your experiences make you think that you can think freely. Your brain is a machine and a computer and although "you" may be more than your brain, your brain is what controls your thinking and therefore your actions and the thoughts that inspire them.

That being said I don't believe that anyone will cease to exist. You exist now and everything else exist, if everything is made from the same basic energy then the best you can do is to rejoin everything, which you are already a part of.


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6503401 - 01/28/07 12:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I seem to be one of the robots that is hooked onto paranoia. Not that I want the paranoia! I hate it! But I really thought this was an interesting read... it changed my views on a lot of things, I kind of pondered it and realised... I make what I am

But.. and interesting thought. what if a robot is pre-programmed to not wake up? ooooooh

and question 2.... what makes paranoia a negative reaction in most, is it a negative reaction in all robots? boggling thoughts!@


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: MrBuzin]
    #6503506 - 01/28/07 12:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Syk0s3s said:
I seem to be one of the robots that is hooked onto paranoia. Not that I want the paranoia! I hate it! But I really thought this was an interesting read... it changed my views on a lot of things, I kind of pondered it and realised... I make what I am

But.. and interesting thought. what if a robot is pre-programmed to not wake up? ooooooh

and question 2.... what makes paranoia a negative reaction in most, is it a negative reaction in all robots? boggling thoughts!@





Plenty of robots are programmed to not wake up. How many people do you know that are closed minded and afraid of everything that challenges them. This is the paranoia that is being referred to, the idea that something that challenges what you think is evil. How many Christians do you know that instead of focusing on the positive aspects of Christianity like compassion and forgiveness, they focus on sin and hell. They condemn all other forms of spirituality that don't coincide preciously with what they know is true. Hell is an idea that stems from paranoia. Some of the them are so set in their program that no amount of experience to the contrary would change that. There are many other examples other than some Christians, I don't mean to single them out, but they are a good example.

As for why paranoia is bad. Fear is caused by ignorance and ignorance is the root of all evil. Fear is the cause of every war and every genocide. Fear has been used by governments and religious leaders to control populations into committing the worst atrocities in history. Fear clouds judgment and destroys empathy and compassion. Empathy is a result of knowledge and understanding and that is the only way to battle fear and ignorance.

I believe that it was Aristotle who said "Ignorance is the root of all evil" but I could be wrong... I don't want to take credit for something I've read somewhere else.

Perhaps this is not the paranoia you were thinking of, if you remain open minded and crave knowledge and other's points of view you can avoid the paranoia that destroys life.


Edited by JstHereFrTheCake (01/28/07 12:40 AM)


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: MrBuzin]
    #6504371 - 01/28/07 10:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Syk0s3s said:
I seem to be one of the robots that is hooked onto paranoia. Not that I want the paranoia! I hate it! But I really thought this was an interesting read... it changed my views on a lot of things, I kind of pondered it and realised... I make what I am

But.. and interesting thought. what if a robot is pre-programmed to not wake up? ooooooh

and question 2.... what makes paranoia a negative reaction in most, is it a negative reaction in all robots? boggling thoughts!@


It is true that many humans do not awaken to their higher nature on the earthly plane.

You are seeking. That's a great first step.

Paranoia arises from a fear of self-knowledge - id est, when you are afraid that there is something at your core, or at the core of your reality, which is rotten and should be suppressed and hidden. I can tell you that there is not, but you probably won't believe me until you see it for yourself.

Try picking up copies of The Bhagavad Gita and Ram Dass's Be Here Now: in tandem they are a powerful asset in constructing a personal metaphor for the Joyous Self.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisiblebadreligion2good
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6504461 - 01/28/07 11:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Or read the Sutras, and practice meditation to manifest your Buddha nature, rather than just think that you are a Buddha because Ram Daas said so. To think and to experience are different. For our Buddha nature to manifest itself it requires effort. As I said, our Buddha nature is but a seed that needs the right conditions to grow. If we don't tend to the seed, our Buddha-nature will never manifest itself.

I believe if you spoke to Ram Daas, or sent him your message, he too would find many faults in your thoughts. Like saying that our karma isn't our own, that meditation is not a path to liberation. Your view seems more nihilistic then Buddhist. You're saying you should pursue desires as you want because you're going to die anyways, and when you die you will cease to exist so why not indulge? Your "self" may cease, but your karma will not.

No, it is possible to get passed our programming, through meditation and mindfulness. Maybe you're a robot but I'm not. We can erase our conditioning with right effort. Just because you experience life as a robot does not mean that I do. If we couldn't by pass our programming, how could anyone discover their Buddha-nature? You're acting as though we can't overcome the reality which others have thought up for us. This doesn't seem true to me.

You are not a Buddha, you are not enlightened. Buddha means enlightened one. So you are not a Buddha. You are a robot. As you said. But you are a robot with the seed of Buddha nature itching to manifest itself. You can become a Buddha, with right effort.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6504540 - 01/28/07 12:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badreligion2good said:
Or read the Sutras, and practice meditation to manifest your Buddha nature, rather than just think that you are a Buddha because Ram Daas said so. To think and to experience are different. For our Buddha nature to manifest itself it requires effort. As I said, our Buddha nature is but a seed that needs the right conditions to grow. If we don't tend to the seed, our Buddha-nature will never manifest itself.

I believe if you spoke to Ram Daas, or sent him your message, he too would find many faults in your thoughts. Like saying that our karma isn't our own, that meditation is not a path to liberation. Your view seems more nihilistic then Buddhist. You're saying you should pursue desires as you want because you're going to die anyways, and when you die you will cease to exist so why not indulge? Your "self" may cease, but your karma will not.

No, it is possible to get passed our programming, through meditation and mindfulness. Maybe you're a robot but I'm not. We can erase our conditioning with right effort. Just because you experience life as a robot does not mean that I do. If we couldn't by pass our programming, how could anyone discover their Buddha-nature? You're acting as though we can't overcome the reality which others have thought up for us. This doesn't seem true to me.

You are not a Buddha, you are not enlightened. Buddha means enlightened one. So you are not a Buddha. You are a robot. As you said. But you are a robot with the seed of Buddha nature itching to manifest itself. You can become a Buddha, with right effort.


I think you're getting what you want out of my words.

I am metaphoring that there is no higher plane of reality in the life of an 'I' than that which 'you' see unfolding: therefore, the use of meditation and psychedelics can only yield an enhanced, joyous experience of the unfoldment of one's own subjective experience - which may or may not include the compassionate enhancement of the subjective experience of those with whom one comes into contact with. Therefore they should not be seen as means of liberation, but as means of actualization: they should be used to en-Joy your multiplanar interactions with reality (including your instinctual pleasure-seeking interactions), with the knowledge that when 'you' die 'you' will cease to experience.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6504583 - 01/28/07 12:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think you over thinking and over complicating things. You're getting caught up in your thoughts.

I don't know for certain that you are just repeating Ram Daas's words, but I have a feeling that a lot of what you are saying is from Ram Daas's mind and not your own.

Your post does not come across as a metaphor, you state many things very matter of factly. Like you said that I must accept that I'm a robot. Your subjective experience of reality doesn't hold true for all of us. You say we're all robots, but that is YOUR EXPERIENCE, not mine.

I don't see how I am "getting what I want out of your words." You said very clearly that your Karma isn't your own, that meditation is not a path to liberation. That wasn't inferred, but stated. You're stuck in conceptualizing, pondering, this will get you nowhere. It will go around in circles.

Oh, yeah. And the purpose of meditation is to be here now. To bring us into the present moment, now. In order to truly BE HERE NOW, we must practice meditation. Especially if we are robots. Meditation is how we "BE HERE NOW"

I'm done with this thread. If your desire is to get caught up in abstract thoughts rather than experiencing reality as it truly is through meditation, then so be it.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


Edited by badreligion2good (01/28/07 01:02 PM)


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6504723 - 01/28/07 02:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badreligion2good said:Your post does not come across as a metaphor, you state many things very matter of factly. Like you said that I must accept that I'm a robot. Your subjective experience of reality doesn't hold true for all of us. You say we're all robots, but that is YOUR EXPERIENCE, not mine.


I am saying you are a robot only in that you are the result of input. This seems pretty straight forward. What else would 'you' be if you were not the product of input?

Quote:

Oh, yeah. And the purpose of meditation is to be here now. To bring us into the present moment, now. In order to truly BE HERE NOW, we must practice meditation. Especially if we are robots. Meditation is how we "BE HERE NOW"


Are you meditating right now? If so, how?

Quote:

I'm done with this thread. If your desire is to get caught up in abstract thoughts rather than experiencing reality as it truly is through meditation, then so be it.


All thoughts are abstractions. This is the essence of what I'm saying: by having this conversation over the Internet we are not arguing, we are metaphoring our subjective experiences to one another. That my metaphor has no validity to you does not make it invalid - it means you do not understand my metaphor. Which isn't a bad thing! If we all understood each other's metaphors, there would be no reason to language.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6504766 - 01/28/07 02:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I may have been practicing sitting meditation when you wrote that post, but I am not practicing sitting meditation now as I write this post. But I am meditating in a way. Since I just finished a sitting meditation I am much more focused on the present moment and what I am typing right now, so perhaps I am meditating.

It is possible to take the meditative practice with you on your day to day life. You can be in a meditative state when doing anything by simply being mindful and not letting the mind wander into the past or future. By using whatever activity it is your performing as an anchor to keep you in the present moment. You can be meditative when doing anything, its not simply a sitting exercise.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6504935 - 01/28/07 03:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badreligion2good said:
I may have been practicing sitting meditation when you wrote that post, but I am not practicing sitting meditation now as I write this post. But I am meditating in a way. Since I just finished a sitting meditation I am much more focused on the present moment and what I am typing right now, so perhaps I am meditating.

It is possible to take the meditative practice with you on your day to day life. You can be in a meditative state when doing anything by simply being mindful and not letting the mind wander into the past or future. By using whatever activity it is your performing as an anchor to keep you in the present moment. You can be meditative when doing anything, its not simply a sitting exercise.


I absolutely agree about being mindful at all times.  By posting here on the Shroomery I am practicing a form of meditation where the object is the interaction of my writing with the writing of others.

Letting the mind wander into the past and the future is impossible.  Your mind is always in the present, it is your words which are running around screaming about things that don't exist. :wink:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6504947 - 01/28/07 03:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No, your mind isn't always in the present. When you are thinking about what you're going to do later, your mind isn't existing in the present but imagining the future. When you are dwelling on happy or sad memories, your mind isn't in the present, but in the past. Just a couple of examples.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6505010 - 01/28/07 03:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

badreligion2good said:
No, your mind isn't always in the present. When you are thinking about what you're going to do later, your mind isn't existing in the present but imagining the future. When you are dwelling on happy or sad memories, your mind isn't in the present, but in the past. Just a couple of examples.


Those are words and emotions you're referring to, not mind. Words and emotions are subjective and abstract, ergo can dwell on the 'past' and 'future' - mind is objective.

Unfortunately I don't think words can transfer experience of the objective mind to you, but as luck would have it you have your own metaphors to work with in discovering it, and you may well be further along the path than I.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6505074 - 01/28/07 04:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As long as your mind wanders, you are not always living in the present moment. Thinking about the past or future is the mind wandering. I'm sure you have many idle thoughts that just appear seemingly out of nowhere, as all untrained minds do. When these idle thoughts occur and you get caught up in them you are no longer living in the present. Again, you are over complicating things.

Whether you like it or not, your mind does not exist always exist in the present, though your physical mind-body does, if you are mindful you'll see this. Try meditating for an hour or more, just counting the breaths, watch how your mind throws a bunch of random thoughts out, you'll notice how chaotic the untrained mind is. You won't be able to do it without your mind throwing out some random stuff. Watch your mind wander, then you'll see how far from living in the present you usually are. In fact, I bet you'll find you are unable to sit for an hour straight doing nothing but counting your breaths, because you will get entangled in a thought and allow it to distract you completely from the counting of the breath. Notice how when you're doing things which are natural, habitual, how your mind wanders from the task which your body is performing. The purpose of meditation is to stop the distracted mind and to get it to exist in the present.

It seems to me you simply do not want to practice sitting meditation, because it hurts your back and it takes decades to sit full lotus. The benefits greatly outweigh the perceived costs though. Sitting meditation is how we cultivate mindfulness.

You just don't get it though, I'm really done now.


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All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


Edited by badreligion2good (01/28/07 04:03 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #6505113 - 01/28/07 04:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was just reading over this whole thread, and i would like to make just a little footnote about Buddhism in general.

Buddhism is not against pleasurable experiences. The principle attitude toward pleasure in Buddhism, is that one can enjoy pleasurable experiences, no problem. But we must know that getting totally distracted, caught up and chasing after the fleeting and impermanent pleasurable experiences, can and will only lead to suffering as its result, time and time again.

Instead of relaxing, enjoying and being aware of the impermanent nature of all life's experiences, like a moth to the flame, we chase endlessly after the objects of our passions. This is the storm of reactivity we need to gently calm so we can understand more clearly, the minds true nature.


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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Sinbad]
    #6505137 - 01/28/07 04:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I never said Buddhism was against pleasurable experiences, deep meditation is a very pleasurable experience! So is happiness, love, compassion, and peace. I have sex, I eat tasty foods, I enjoy pleasure.

I think the thing that really got me going was that he likened meditation to rubbing one out. How ignorant is that?

"Psychedelics and meditation can help you awaken to what you already have, so they are good tools, but they will not help you attain Formlessness/En-Light-enment any more than rubbing one out or riding a bicycle blinfolded into oncoming traffic."

Again, just because you have the potential to discover your Buddha nature doesn't mean you will. Meditation is how you cultivate your Buddha nature. Just because we all have it doesn't mean we all realize it, or more importantly, experience it. How did the enlightened one achieve enlightenment, what was he doing? He wasn't mindlessly rubbing one out. He was meditating all night, through the morning.

Meditation is how countless people have awakened. No one has awakened simply by thinking and telling people that they are robots.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


Edited by badreligion2good (01/28/07 04:23 PM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: badreligion2good]
    #6505164 - 01/28/07 04:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I never thought you were saying that. But others could have misconstrued your words. Easily done on message boards. :wink:

And i agree with what you say. As a wise master once said:

"No meditation, No realization"


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Invisiblebadreligion2good
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Sinbad]
    #6505167 - 01/28/07 04:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Sinbad, you one bad ass sinner yo! I understand why you made the footnote, I can see now where people may have misunderstood. Thanks for adding that to the thread. It is important that people realize the Buddhism isn't anti-pleasure.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: dblaney]
    #6505173 - 01/28/07 04:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

I want to understand what liberation means to you.




To me, liberation is what we are. Fundamentally, everything is liberated/awakened/enlightened. However, because of my confusion, delusion, and misunderstandings, I don't realize this. I 'understand' this to be so on a superficial level, but not down to my bones. It's like the difference between stating the name of food, and actually eating, processing, and assimilating the food.

Quote:

What, then, will happen if I decide to blow up a building full of little children?




Then the building will be destroyed, little children will be dead, and many people will be very upset.

Quote:

The fact that I have no uniqueness other than my subjective experience does not mean that I'm literally nothing! So what should I do???? To what end do "I" cultivate compassion and awareness if I do not exist, if there is no coming or going?




Perspective is key here. From the perspective of Absolute Truth (which is not other than relative or conventional truth), there is no you, no me, no chocolate ice cream, no coming, no going, no compassion, no awareness, no something, and no nothing. From the perspective of relative or conventional, everyday truth (which is not other than Absolute Truth), there is you, there is me, there is chocolate ice cream, there is coming there is going, there is joy, and there is pain.

Absolute Truth and relative truth are not different. A wonderful analogy is with the ocean. The water, in this case, is Absolute Truth, and the waves are the relative truth. Outside of the water, there can be no waves, and outside of the waves, there is no water. Waves are simply the function of the water.

HOWEVER, when waves do not realize that they are in fact part of one body of water, then there is an infinite schism between that wave and every other wave on the ocean.

While really there is nothing separating the wave from the water, the idea that the wave is separate in some way IS what is separating the wave from experiencing its oneness with the water.

Yet so long as the wave maintains its notion of being separate from the water, it strives to do anything and everything to maintain and serve this idea of a 'self', of a 'separated individuality'. It seeks after pleasure and avoids pain.

Yet when it realizes its oneness, there is no more pain and no more pleasure, as such, because pleasure and pain are relative. Something is only painful in relation to something that is not. Something is only pleasant in relation to something that is not. When the wave realizes its intrinsic oneness with the water, that it has always been the water, and that there is nothing outside of the water, then liberation is realized. And with it, true joy that is not dependent on the conditions of the ever changing sea.

Quote:

It seems to me that if "I" am void yet "I" am experiencing myself, then cultivating anything is self-serving.




I'm not sure what you mean by "'I' am experiencing myself". In fact, this is another form of separation: the view that there is an experiencer that is separate from the object of experience. Subject and object are just notions imposed on experience. Same with the notions of a subjective and objective world. Perhaps you could say that we ARE the objective world, experiencing ourselves.

Cultivation is not, IMO, what one should strive to do. Cultivating compassion and awareness is like trying to make paint white paint on a wall that is already white. When a wave understands that it is not separate from the ocean, yet observes that so many of the other waves on the ocean still think they are separate, compassion seems to arise naturally, of itself, without any effort on the part of the wave. Likewise, awareness is already here. There is no need to cultivate it. But it is helpful to train it to function properly, so that it doesn't chase after ideas and sensations. Letting it run all over the place has never proved to be conducive to realizing that we are the ocean.

Quote:

why not serve myself a bowl of chocolate ice-cream and a plane ticket to the Caribbean?




So long as it is the ocean that eats the ice cream and goes to the Caribbean, it is alright. But if it is the wave that eats the ice cream and goes to the Caribbean, then there is confusion. The wave still thinks of itself as separate.

Since the ocean does not harbor such ideas as 'self' and 'other', there would be no reason for it to seek pleasure in the form of ice cream or tropical vacations. However, if the circumstances were such that doing either of those would be compassionate and beneficial, then I'm sure the ocean would do either of those in a flash.

It's tricky though, because so long as you think that you're acting selflessly, you are in fact acting selfishly. Only when you don't act at all is there true selfless, compassionate action. That's why the sutras say that sages act without acting and speak without speaking.




--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: dblaney]
    #6509050 - 01/29/07 07:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You see, the essential problem is that bug may have been reading or inquiring into Krishnamutri's stuff, in which he states that we are all robots, that meditation doesn't work, and blah blah blah etc.


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Sinbad]
    #6509584 - 01/29/07 09:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
You see, the essential problem is that bug may have been reading or inquiring into Krishnamutri's stuff, in which he states that we are all robots, that meditation doesn't work, and blah blah blah etc. 


no, I haven't been, I've just been using poor metaphors.  self-realization is tough because I look back at what I wrote the day before and wonder what the hell 'I' was thinking when 'I' wrote it

:grin:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleModestMouse
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #19744861 - 03/25/14 01:18 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

bumping for the beauty.

Amazing read.


--------------------
Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #19744891 - 03/25/14 01:25 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Wrong. Mass killer can feel compassion and remorse. Heroic attempts to make life more meaningful or durable are interesting control ideas.


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OfflineLion
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: ModestMouse]
    #19744921 - 03/25/14 01:37 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ModestMouse said:
bumping for the beauty.

Amazing read.


I appreciate that you enjoyed reading this. :lol: It really feels like a lifetime ago that I made this thread.  I remember where I was when I wrote it, but I can barely remember the mindset I was in.  I had just had a life-shattering trip that I struggled to integrate for months, years even, and I felt like I had come upon the real path of liberation (either that, or I was in some kind of purgatory).  In retrospect, reading all of the things I wrote during that specific period, I see attempts to explain what I had gone through to myself and to others, and to cut through the confusion that had overwhelmed my daily life.  I'm not necessarily any less delusional now, but at the time I was a special kind of delusional, thinking of myself as some spiritually powerful being with a special destiny, and at other times becoming completely paranoid and solipsistic.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion]
    #19744982 - 03/25/14 01:52 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Reality is uncompromising and fatal to our desires. Becker would say people who realize our ultimate futile existence and demise as blah blah some true heroes.

LoN
g live our illusions.


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OfflineTropism
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Lion] * 1
    #19746547 - 03/25/14 08:31 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
You are a robot.




Human's made robots, robots are birthed of human thought process, they're more like us than we are like them.
Kind of like a little girl crocheting a doll of herself, that's how we made them.
Anyway, what you said was groovy, I just think in your analogy we're still people not robots.
We don't have to be robots for all that depressing gunk to be true.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: I, Robot, am the Buddha in a teenager's skin [Re: Tropism] * 2
    #19746819 - 03/25/14 09:15 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Tropism is quite right.  I think it's a mistake to compare humans to "robots" when such devices were invented by humans in the first place.  One hears so much of the notion that humans (in body and mind) are "mere machines," when in fact every machine ever made by man is a basic extension of human consciousness, and thus shouldn't be trivialized in such a way.


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