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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1504960 - 04/29/03 04:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

How so?! weapons kill people, pesticides sprayed in quantity kill people...

Its a chemical being used as a weapon, so ludicris....mabye, but completely ludicris?!


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1504976 - 04/29/03 04:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Agent Orange was *NOT* dropped on Vietnam with the intention if killing/maiming/harming in any way its citizens. That is a FACT.

If you want to call it a "Chemical Weapon used against Mother Nature", I'll agree with you.

Sarin, which Saddam Hussein used against thousands of Kurds in northern Iraq, was used WITH the intention of killing/maiming/causing harm.



If you cannot see the difference between the two, I dont know how to help you....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1504986 - 04/29/03 04:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why does everyone keep saying that Saddam used gas on his own people when it has never been proven, and in fact the evidence suggests it was Iran...

The Iranians were known to have used Sarin gas frequently, while Iraq was known for Mustard gas. Saying that Saddam gassed his own people over and over agian does not make it true.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1504993 - 04/29/03 04:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It does in America, Rono, unfortunately.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Strumpling]
    #1505019 - 04/29/03 04:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Item: On 29/March/1987 the Revolutionary Command Council authorizesHassan Ali al Majid, to do "Whatever is necessary to deal with the Kurdish Problem.

Item: 15/April/1987 Chemical attacks directed against 30 villages in Northern Iraq. <sidenote> Do you really think Iraq just let that many Iranian fighter's across the border?

Item: To convince Saddam that his tactics worked, Ali ordered films made of these attacks and their aftermaths.

Item: Since the Iraqi government is so record-crazy, copies of these videos were kept, and during the Kurdish uprising, fell into the hands of the Kurds, who turned them over to international authorities.

Item: If you would like to see the gruesome effects, the entire 18 tons of files and videos can be found at the University of Colorado...

Now, unless your going to claim that these were all faked, which I'm sure you will, I think its been proven.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1505025 - 04/29/03 04:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Really?...then please explain that when Iraq was close with the U.S., an investigation by the Americans showed that it was the Iranians that gassed the kurds..not Saddam..which leaves the question when was your government lying to you?...then or now?

Heres a link for you here and here and here and here


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (04/29/03 04:56 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1505042 - 04/29/03 04:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well..Considering what I just said had nothing to do with the United States until the tapes were given to us, after going through many other countries/organizations first.

And, I would very much like to see said report. Very very much. Post a link/source?



--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1505056 - 04/29/03 04:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Just click on the links that I provided, my man...or do your own research and let me know what you turn up.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (04/29/03 05:00 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1505338 - 04/29/03 06:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Agent Orange was a chemical. Not a chemical weapon"

holy shit......agent orange wasnt a weapon??????????

are you out of your mind???? if you drop agent orange on a bunch of soldiers, what is going to happen to them?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1505557 - 04/29/03 07:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Thousands are sick/deformed/dying from the pesticides they spray on the field across the street from my house. Same fucking thing....




Wow!!! Really?!?! Thousands are sick, deformed and dying because of pesticides they spray across the street from your house? That is, without a doubt, illegal. If people are dying because of what they are using then that is murder.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1505821 - 04/29/03 08:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And, I refuse to succumb and argue about Vietnam...Ciao....




you brought it up, not me..sheesh. If you bring something up i'll respond to it. If you don't want it discussed don't bring it up...get it?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1505890 - 04/29/03 09:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Few things...First, Sorry Rono, didnt see the links when I posted, I must not 've been paying attention. I look forward to checking those out.

Two, on the issue of Vietnam. I didnt mean that to sound pissy. I'll be more than happy to debate the merits and pitfalls of Vietnam if you'd like, but I suggest we get a more appropriate folder. And on a side note, I dont believe I brought it up.

Three, Its a relatively commonly accepted fact that pesticides sprayed on crops are not good for you. While I was being stupid saying 1000's of people, I stand by the fact that if your going to equate Agent Orange with a chemical weapon, your silly. Look at your standard lists of chemical weapons....
Sarin
VX
Mustard Gas
Chlorine Gas
Roundup Weed Killer.

Now, lets play a little game and pick the oddball out? Can you do it? I sure can...I'm sure the effects of Roundup sprayed over an entire country would produce similar effects, and I dont see it banned by any chemical weapons treaties...Or should I report the Garden Center down the road to the U.N.?!?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1507147 - 04/30/03 10:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"In the first report they wrote: "In September 1988 - a month after the war had ended"


"Having looked at all the evidence that was available to us"

Those are 2 key quotes from the report that you cited Rono. Unfortunately, the Kurdish uprising did not occur until 1990, and it was several more years until all the information obtained was disseminated to the world community. Maybe with "all the evidence that was available to us" they could have made the wrong decision.

In 1800, "All the evidence that was available to us" declared the Black Man inferior. Facts change...Nice try though....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1507150 - 04/30/03 10:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So are you saying that you still think it was Saddam that gassed the kurds?... I'm not exactly sure how what you've pointed out refutes anything.
P.S....the Kurdish uprising happened in 1988...not 1990...But believe what you want. Don't let facts stand in your way.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (04/30/03 10:44 AM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1507241 - 04/30/03 11:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"P.S....the Kurdish uprising happened in 1988...not 1990...But believe what you want. Don't let facts stand in your way. "

Okay. Lets get the FACTS straight, since you claim to be fond of them...

Item: This is from KNN. The Kurdish News Network? I would assume they know their history, much better than you or I.

The Kurdish uprising of 1991 took place after the Coalition Forces' recapture of Kuwait. Encouraged by US calls for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, and by the rising of the Shi'i Arabs in south Iraq, a popular revolt spread rapidly across Kurdistan during March.

Heres a quote from Baylor Universities website as well...

A third, larger wave of Iraqi Kurds fled Iraq to Turkey and Iran immediately after the failed Kurdish uprising during the Gulf War, in early 1991

And, since the third time's the charm, heres one from The Washington Times...

The Brayti newspaper, run by the Kurdistan Democratic Party, said the grave was near Kanhash in the Kowair province, 24 miles south of Erbil. Kurdish forces captured the town for a few weeks during the 1991 uprising and again after the collapse of the Iraqi regime this month.

Now, Finding all these sources to point out your mistakes is getting a tad tedious. Could we do a bit of research before we post, please?

Now, to respond to your point...

"So are you saying that you still think it was Saddam that gassed the kurds?... I'm not exactly sure how what you've pointed out refutes anything. "

ALL the evidence, EVERY single little piece, points to the clear fact that Saddam gassed his own people. Eyewitness reports, Videotape, Iraqi Government documents. ALL of it. The only refuting evidence that I see is a outdated report from the U.S. Army War College with old, irrelevent information....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1507280 - 04/30/03 11:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry champ...but the Kurdish uprising where 5000 were gassed by "somebody" was in 1988...you are referring to something else. Do a search on google...use "1988 Kurdish Uprising" If I'm wrong then I will be more than happy to admit it.

Anybody else care to verify this, so that there is no mistake?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (04/30/03 11:40 AM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1507296 - 04/30/03 11:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Right, Right. Heres where we're losing each other.

SOMEONE gassed Kurds in 1988. Agreed.

But, the uprising that I was referring to, the 1991 uprising, was when the Kurds conquered some Iraqi territory, and seized the documents/videotaps/evidence of the attack in 1988.

My main point is this: The report you cited was done in 1988. The evidence was seized in 1991. Obviously, the 1991 evidence was not incorporated into the report. Therefore, the report is obsolete.

Does this make sense? Or are we still missing each other?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1507329 - 04/30/03 11:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think this is a topic that is worthy of it's own thread...I'll start one and we can hash it out there..


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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