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OfflinePhred
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1500219 - 04/28/03 09:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

jimsuzo writes:

I hate to draw fire from folks that I'm usually aligned with, but I kinda think that the French should have towed the American line - no matter how fucked up it was and still is.

I disagree. You can only get so much mileage out of that "we saved them from the Nazis" argument, and the fact that six decades ago Americans and Canadians and English stormed Normandy and liberated Western Europe doesn't mean that France must march in rigid lockstop to everything the US asks for all eternity.

In a way, they even did the US a favor by telling the world in advance that they would use their veto power -- it at least let the US stop wasting its energy on the UN security council.

France had its reasons for opposing the war, albeit economic ones (the loss of oil contracts, the loss of the largest weapons-buying customer in the region), and it is naive to believe that the French hold the same view of the world that Americans do. They don't even hold the same view of the world that their neighbors in Europe do. This shouldn't be news to anyone. Those who feel strongly enough about it can easily just boycott French products and businesses -- no need to make it a national policy.

Of course, the thought of France playing any significant role in the reconstruction of Iraq is a non-starter, but that shouldn't make a difference -- there are enough other countries around to lend a hand that the job will get done without France's help.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1500220 - 04/28/03 09:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Monarchy if it wasnt for France bailing our ass out in the Revolution?




France never bailed us out during the revolution, that's rediculous. They came in at the end with any sort of numbers.

Quote:

Hell, my politics teacher tells me we still havent paid back the money we owe them from that one.




your politics teacher is a knob.

Quote:

Since France helped us out that one time, I guess we better do whatever their party line is, eh? Ridiculous....




I recommend you do some homework on Frances involvment in the revolutionary war, you may be surprised.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500289 - 04/28/03 10:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"I recommend you do some homework on Frances involvment in the revolutionary war, you may be surprised. "

Well of course they had reasons for doing it. Tell me one time that America had military involvement in any other country that didnt involve itself? And you disagree that the French involvement was a major point in Britain surrendering? Funny that every History text I've ever read disagrees with you....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1500309 - 04/28/03 10:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Well of course they had reasons for doing it. Tell me one time that America had military involvement in any other country that didnt involve itself?




i wasn't talking about reasons for involvment i was talking about the the amount of involvement. The french did not play a huge part of the revolutionary war.

Quote:

Funny that every History text I've ever read disagrees with you....




really? show me where. I never said they weren't involved, it just wasn't to the point where they were the deciding factor. I don't deny they helped us but to say we haven't paid our debt is just plain wrong if not a bit silly...we did help them in 2 world wars.

Believe me, americans do appreciate the help from the French, but to say that they were the deciding factor is just plain wrong.

This is a nice timeline:

Events leading up to the War
The French and Indian War (1754-63)
The Sugar Act (4/5/1764)
The Stamp Act (3/22/1765)
Patrick Henry's "If This Be Treason" speech (5/29/1765)
The Stamp Act Congress (10/7-25/1765)
Townshend Act (6/29/1767)
Disturbances in Boston
The Boston Massacre (3/5/1770)
The Boston Tea Party (12/16/1773)
The First Continental Congress (Philadelphia, 9/5-10/26/1774)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1775: The War Begins
The Rides of Paul Revere and William Dawes (4/18)
The Battles of Lexington and Concord (4/19)
Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys Seize Fort Ticonderoga (5/10)
The Second Continental Congress (met in Philadelphia, 5/10)
Washington named Commander in Chief (6/15)
Battle of Bunker Hill (fought on Breed's Hill) (6/17)
Montgomery captures Montreal for Americans (11/13)
Benedict Arnold's failed attack on Quebec (12/30)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1776: The Year of Independence
Paine's "Common Sense" published (1/15)
Patriot triumph at Moore's Creek, NC (2/27)
Continental fleet captures New Providence Island in the Bahamas (3/3)
The British evacuate Boston (3/17)
Richard Henry Lee proposes Independence (6/7)
British defence of Fort Moultrie, SC (6/28)
Declaration of Independence adopted (7/4)
Declaration of Independence signed (8/2)
Arrival of 30,000 British troops in New York harbor
British win the Battle of Long Island (Battle of Brooklyn) (8/27-30)
British occupy New York City (9/15)
British win the Battle of Harlem Heights (9/16)
Benedict Arnold defeated at Lake Champlain (10/11)
American retreat at the Battle of White Plains (10/28)
British capture Fort Washington, NY and Fort Lee, NJ (11/16)
Washington Crosses the Delaware and captures Trenton (12/26)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1777: The War for the North
Washington wins the Battle of Princeton (1/3)
Washington winters in Morristown, NJ (1/6-5/28)
Flag Resolution (flag possibly designed by Hopkinson, likely sewn by Betsy Ross) (6/14)
St. Clair surrenders Fort Ticonderoga to the British (7/5)
Lafayette arrives in Philadelphia (7/27)
Americans under Herkimer defeat the British under St. Leger at Fort Stanwix, in the Mohawk Valley in Oriskany, New York (8/6)
American Militia under General Stark triumph over Hessians at Bennington (8/16)
British General Howe lands at Head of Elk, Maryland (8/25)
British success at the Battle of Brandywine, PA (9/11)
Rain-out at the Battle of the Clouds, PA (9/16)
Burgoyne checked by Americans under Gates at Freeman's Farm, NY (9/19)
Paoli Massacre, PA (9/21)
British under Howe occupy Philadelphia (9/26)
Americans driven off at the Battle of Germantown (10/4)
Burgoyne loses second battle of Freeman's Farm, NY (at Bemis Heights) (10/7)
Burgoyne surrenders to American General Gates at Saratoga, NY (10/17)
Hessian attack on Fort Mercer, NJ repulsed (10/22)
British capture Fort Mifflin, PA (11/16)
Americans repulse British at Whitemarsh, PA (12/5-7)
The Winter at Valley Forge, PA (12/19/77-6/19/78)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1778: Valley Forge and the French Alliance
The French Alliance (2/6)
British General William Howe replaced by Henry Clinton (3/7)
Van Steuben arrives at Valley Forge
Battle of Barren Hill, PA (5/20)
Washington fights to a draw at Battle of Monmouth (6/28)
George Rogers Clark captured Kaskaskia, a French village near Detroit (7/4)
French and American forces besiege Newport, RI (8/8)
British occupy Savannah, GA (12/29)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1779: The War Spreads
Militia beat Tories at Kettle Creek, NC (2/14)
American George Rogers Clark captures Vincennes on the Wabash in the Western campaign (2/25)
Fairfield, CT, burned by British (7/8)
Norwalk, CT, burned by British (7/11)
American "Mad" Anthony Wayne captures Stony Point, NY (7/15-16)
"Light Horse" Harry Lee attacks Paulus Hook, NJ (8/19)
John Paul Jones, aboard the Bonhomme Richard, captures British man-of-war Serapis near English coast (9/23)
The Tappan Massacre ("No Flint" Grey kills 30 Americans by bayonet) (9/28)
American attempt to recapture Savannah, GA fails (10/9)
Coldest Winter of the war, Washington at Morristown, NJ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1780: The Campaign for the South
British capture Charleston, SC (5/12)
British crush Americans at Waxhaw Creek, SC (5/29)
Patriots rout Tories at Ramseur's Mill, NC (6/20)
French troops arrive at Newport, RI, to aid the American cause (7/11)
Patriots defeat Tories at Hanging Rock, SC (8/6)
British rout Americans at Camden, SC (8/16)
Benedict Arnold's plans to cede West Point to the British discovered (9/25)
King's Mountain, SC: battle lasted 65 minutes. American troops led by Isaac Shelby and John Sevier defeated Maj. Patrick Ferguson and one-third of General Cornwallis' army. (10/7)
Washington names Nathanael Greene commander of the Southern Army (10/14)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1781: All But Done
Mutiny of unpaid Pennsylvania soldiers (1/1)
Patriot Morgan overwhelming defeated British Col. Tarleton at Cowpens, SC (1/17)
Articles of Confederation adopted (3/2)
British win costly victory at Guilford Courthouse, NC (3/15)
Greene defeated at Hobkirk's Hill, SC (4/25)
Corwallis clashed with Greene at Guilford Courthouse, NC (5/15)
Americans recapture Augusta, GA (6/6)
British hold off Americans at Ninety Six, SC (6/18)
"Mad" Anthony Wayne repulsed at Green Springs Farm, VA (7/6)
Greene defeated at Eutaw Springs, SC (9/8)
French fleet drove British naval force from Chesapeake Bay (9/15)
Cornwallis surrounded on land and sea by Americans and French and surrenders at Yorktown, VA (10/19)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1782 and Beyond
Lord North resigned as British Prime Minister (3/20/82)
British evacuated Savannah, GA (7/11/82)
British sign Articles of Peace (11/30/82)
British leave Charleston, SC (12/14/82)
Congress ratifies preliminary peace treaty (4/19/83)
Treaty of Paris (9/3/83)
British troops leave New York (11/25/83)
Washington Resigns as Commander (12/23/83)
U.S. Constitution ratified (9/17/87)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (04/28/03 10:42 AM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500331 - 04/28/03 10:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

And we played a huge part in World War 1? Germany wasnt just about ready to surrender when we came in? We just sat in some trenches while they ran out of will to fight...

And according to army.mil...After several days of maneuvering at sea, Graves retired temporarily to New York for repairs, leaving the French fleet in control of Chesapeake Bay. This permitted Washington and Rochambeau to embark their forces in Maryland and sail via the Chesapeake and the James River to a point near Williamsburg (14-24 September). From there an allied army numbering about 15,000-8,845 Americans and 7,800 French moved forward on 28 September to begin siege operations against Yorktown.

It would seem to ME, that being Yorktown was really the end of British hopes, AND being that we wouldnt have been able to fight at Yorktown, if not for the French, that they did play a major role in said war, yes? No? I wont be able to reply for an hour or so...Silly English class, but do respond...Getting my brain working this early in the day is good...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500341 - 04/28/03 10:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Invert, I can see where you are coming from on this, although I dont think it is right. THere are people that feel France still somehow owes us something, and that is their opinion. But I think that by not buying something French like wine or cheese, is just hurting some average French Joe who has nothing to do with Frances foreign policy, just as we have no say in our own foreign policy. I just think that it is directed at the wrong person. Now Jean-Michel on his own vineyard will have to bust his ass just to make up for the Americans that stopped buying his wine because of stupid politics.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500348 - 04/28/03 10:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

50+? What, I thought it was thirty other powerful and influential countries like Tonga, Albania, and the Marshall Islands, and human rights lovers from Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500351 - 04/28/03 10:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

That looks like a pretty significant role they played in the revolution.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500356 - 04/28/03 10:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

They stabbed us in the back




How? I'm curious, do you consider standing up to Bush being 'stabbed in the back'? If that's the case, they did not stab me, an American, in the back. I am grateful for their strength in standing up to the Bush administration.

Bush est un con. Viva la France!!!

**edit - It's a different subject, but... I know many French who speak better English than Bush. That's embarrassing.


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (04/28/03 11:09 AM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: grib]
    #1500423 - 04/28/03 11:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Blind Loyalty is for Dogs and Marines. Anyone else, Individual or Country, gets whatever comes to them, and has no right to complain. While I'm not necessarily (anymore) anti-war, I dont think the rest of the world, no matter who you are, has any responsibility to say "The U.S. is for it, therefore, we follow you". If they have a serious internal debate in the country, and come down Pro-War, or Anti-War, whichever they choose, its the right decision for them, right? If they wanted to be American lackies, they'd become a territory like Puerto Rico...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1500429 - 04/28/03 11:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Here is the list of countries that I found in google that supported the War on Iraq... here

"Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, the United Kingdom and Uzbekistan."

"Mr Powell said. "There are 15 other nations who for one reason or another do not yet wish to be publicly named but will be supporting the coalition."

"There are five Arab countries too, but they insist they are opposed to attacking Iraq and instead are limiting their role to the defence of Kuwait."










--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Rono]
    #1500443 - 04/28/03 11:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm...I can pick at least 5 out of that list who have human rights records relatively equal to Iraq's. And the Arab countries? Please...Saudi Arabia is merely hoping they arent next...Iran just wants their fingers in the pie, Bahrain is making millions off the presence of a U.S. fleet base there...Most of the countries in Eastern Europe are looking for U.S. foreign aid, and this is any easy way to say they're friends with America.

All in all, these are low-risk allies...Which of the above list actually sent troops or supplies? Britain, Australia, Poland and Japan...

And while the above list is of GOVERNMENTS who are okay with our war, it would be good to note that the populations of many of the countries listed are at best, split on the subject, and at the worst, are vehemently opposed to it.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1500463 - 04/28/03 12:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Invert, I can see where you are coming from on this, although I dont think it is right. THere are people that feel France still somehow owes us something,




I would say that they owe us at least a little respect but to say that they owe us for every single thing would be a little much.

Quote:

But I think that by not buying something French like wine or cheese, is just hurting some average French Joe who has nothing to do with Frances foreign policy




Then maybe those french citizins will revolt against those that caused the whole problem in the first place (depending on who you are i suppose).

Quote:

just as we have no say in our own foreign policy.




We do have a say, it's just that those that are opposed are in the minority at the moment. I don't mind putting a little fear into our enemies lives and i would imagine that this opinion is shared by many that agree with the action in Iraq.

Quote:

I just think that it is directed at the wrong person. Now Jean-Michel on his own vineyard will have to bust his ass just to make up for the Americans that stopped buying his wine because of stupid politics.




it will affect france higher up. It may affect Joe-Frence Guy but MANY americans are pissed at French opposition and feel that they have been duped. I agree. Don't get me wrong, i don't want a war with France, but just teach them a little lesson at the local level.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1500468 - 04/28/03 12:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

50+? What, I thought it was thirty other powerful and influential countries like Tonga, Albania, and the Marshall Islands, and human rights lovers from Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan




I think it was somewhere around 39 plus 15 others. These countries have the same right to speak as the third rate countries of Russia and France.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500469 - 04/28/03 12:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, i don't want a war with France, but just teach them a little lesson at the local level.[quote/]

And, what is the lesson you would like to teach them? Elaborate please? That its not okay to follow your concience? That the U.S. is infalliable, so they better fall in lock-step?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: grib]
    #1500472 - 04/28/03 12:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

That looks like a pretty significant role they played in the revolution.




not really. It was greatly appreciated and it helped us in the long run but the results would have been the same. Don't get me wrong, i know they helped us, just not to the point many want it to be. To say that we haven't paid them back for it is rather funny.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500490 - 04/28/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"To say that we haven't paid them back for it is rather funny."

I dont think that is whats being implied. I just dont think that because we helped them out once or twice, that they should be indebted to us 50 or 80 years later. Did they not participate in Yugoslavia and Gulf War 1? In the end, if you want to demonize them for not participating in a war which they felt was not in their best interests, do so. But dont try to sorround it in a false air of legitimacy....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1500493 - 04/28/03 12:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't think that you would answer  :smirk: 


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: grib]
    #1500523 - 04/28/03 12:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

answer what?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American Propaganda [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1500547 - 04/28/03 12:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I dont think that is whats being implied. I just dont think that because we helped them out once or twice, that they should be indebted to us 50 or 80 years later.




I'm not boycotting them because they didn't want to fight (they're french). I'm boycotting them because they went out of their way in stabbing us in the back by signing onto 1441 then backing off and threatening a veto when just months earlier they made a promise. There is a history of French opposition to the us . This is their right but so is it ours to boycott them.

Quote:

But dont try to sorround it in a false air of legitimacy....




you're trying to put motives where thewre is none.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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