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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Chomsky on how to get out
    #2672997 - 05/13/04 12:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Noam Chomsky: Transfer real sovereignty


Occupying armies have responsibilities, not rights. Their primary responsibility is to withdraw as quickly and expeditiously as possible, in a manner determined by the occupied population.

It follows that the orders issued by Proconsul Bremer are illegitimate and should be rescinded, including those designed to place the economy effectively in the hands of western (mostly US) banks and multinational companies, and the 15% flat tax which, apart from its injustice, bars the way to desperately needed social spending and reconstruction.

Without economic sovereignty, prospects for healthy development are slight, and political independence verges on formality.

It also follows that Washington should end the machinations to ensure its long-term military presence and control of Iraqi security forces in defiance of the will of Iraqis, who call for Iraqis to control security, according to western-run polls.

These record only minuscule support for the occupying military forces and their civil counterparts (the CPA) or the US-appointed governing council.

With a decision, however reluctant, to transfer authentic sovereignty to Iraqis - not just the traditional facade for Great Power domination - there will be no justification for the huge diplomatic mission, apparently the world's largest, announced by the occupiers.

Such steps entail abandonment of plans to establish the first secure military bases in a client state at the heart of the world's major energy reserves - a powerful lever of world control, as has been understood for 60 years, a means to subordinate the region more fully to US interests and the prime motive for the invasion, according to western polls in Baghdad.

Some of those polled agreed with articulate western opinion that the goal was to establish democracy (1%) or to help Iraqis (5%).

A large majority of Americans believe that the UN, not the US, should take the lead in working with Iraqis to transfer authentic sovereignty as well as in economic reconstruction and maintaining civic order.

That is a sensible stand, if Iraqis agree, as seems likely, though the general assembly, less directly controlled by the invaders, is preferable to the security council as the responsible transitional authority.

Reconstruction should be in the hands of Iraqis, not delayed as a means of controlling them, as Washington has indicated.

Reparations - not just aid - should be provided by those responsible for devastating Iraqi civilian society by cruel sanctions and military actions, and - together with other criminal states - for supporting Saddam Hussein through his worst atrocities and beyond. That is the minimum that honesty requires.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1214967,00.html


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,879
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Xlea321]
    #2673231 - 05/13/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Chomsky rules.





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Mp3 of the month: Dennis & The Times - Flight Patterns



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,009
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Learyfan]
    #2673842 - 05/13/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Chumpsky sucks.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2673970 - 05/13/04 04:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So, we should ditch everything leaving Iraq in anarchy and throw lots of money at whoever takes control. That doesn't sound like a good exit strategy to me.

Chomksy's assumptions that US does not intend to hand over power at all show just how out of touch he is.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,009
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2674053 - 05/13/04 04:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Chomksy's assumptions that US does not intend to hand over power at all show just how out of touch he is.



Well, in his defense.... he did poll himself, three family members and a half dozen friends.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2674999 - 05/13/04 08:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, in his defense.... he did poll himself, three family members and a half dozen friends

Notice how the article is worded, "according to western polls in Baghdad" meaning the polls were conducted in baghdad, not the United States. Here is an excerpt from Gallup's website, although I cannot verify the numbers as it is a pay site.

Although 62% of Baghdad residents who participated in Gallup's landmark poll of that city said ousting Saddam Hussein was worth any personal hardships they have endured since the invasion, most are deeply skeptical of the initial rationale the coalition has given for its action.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,009
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: DeepDish]
    #2675206 - 05/13/04 08:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Main Entry: 1hu?mor
Pronunciation: 'hy?-m&r, 'y?-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English humour, from Middle French humeur, from Medieval Latin & Latin; Medieval Latin humor, from Latin humor, umor moisture; akin to Old Norse vokr damp, Latin humEre to be moist, and perhaps to Greek hygros wet
1 a : a normal functioning bodily semifluid or fluid (as the blood or lymph) b : a secretion (as a hormone) that is an excitant of activity
2 a in medieval physiology : a fluid or juice of an animal or plant; specifically : one of the four fluids entering into the constitution of the body and determining by their relative proportions a person's health and temperament b : characteristic or habitual disposition or bent : TEMPERAMENT <of cheerful humor> c : an often temporary state of mind imposed especially by circumstances <was in no humor to listen> d : a sudden, unpredictable, or unreasoning inclination : WHIM <the uncertain humors of nature>
3 a : that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous b : the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous c : something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2675294 - 05/13/04 09:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm pretty sure the article doesn't say any of those things.

If you set aside your initial desire to lambast anything and
everything chomsky says, it's a rather level headed statement
on how he believes should be (relative to some of his editorials)

Basically, transfer real power back to Iraq, including control of
their finances. And if we're really serious about democracy and
human rights...don't construct permanent military installations
that are all but guardposts for (y)our coveted oil.

All seems pretty reasonable to me.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlinewrong
Stranger
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 1,219
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: afoaf]
    #2675478 - 05/13/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

whats that? noam chomsky? hes just a stupid douche bag. he doesnt have anything important to say.


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
Male User Gallery

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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,423
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: wrong]
    #2675662 - 05/13/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Kind of like some members around here :lol:


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: wrong]
    #2675665 - 05/13/04 10:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Evolving]
    #2676167 - 05/14/04 12:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.




as long as its not military time


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Xlea321]
    #2676932 - 05/14/04 07:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well alot of predictable knee jerk reactions and replies where it is obvious the poster hasnt actually read what Chomsky has said but no intelligent arguement against the points Chomsky makes.

Alex, it would have been interesting to see if the article would have been more favourably received if you had said it was by somebody else!!


Edited by GazzBut (05/14/04 07:52 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: GazzBut]
    #2677435 - 05/14/04 12:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Probably Gazz, nothing gets them frothing at the jowls quite like Chomsky..
:laugh:

He's giving a lecture in Liverpool on 22nd May  :thumbup:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: GazzBut]
    #2677480 - 05/14/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Chomsky has some good points, but he seems to think that a flat 15% tax is bad. He used the term 'injustice' for a system that forces those who earn more to pay more, as usual he appeals to envy and he seems to imply that higher taxes and a massive government on the Iraqi's would help them out. That's right, tax the shit out of them poor bastards and watch their country rebuild - typical short-sighted economic thinking.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Evolving]
    #2677524 - 05/14/04 12:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

he seems to imply that higher taxes and a massive government on the Iraqi's would help them out.




Well I agree I he maybe reccomending a variable tax rate dependent on income,I don t really see a problem with that. As for the massive government part I think that could be extrapolation on your part.


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Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: Evolving]
    #2677684 - 05/14/04 01:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Chomsky has some good points, but he seems to think that a flat 15% tax is bad. He used the term 'injustice' for a system that forces those who earn more to pay more, as usual he appeals to envy and he seems to imply that higher taxes and a massive government on the Iraqi's would help them out. That's right, tax the shit out of them poor bastards and watch their country rebuild - typical short-sighted economic thinking.



The problem with a flat tax is it's inherently regressive, creating a greater burden on the poor. That's why I support the land value tax instead.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: GazzBut]
    #2677740 - 05/14/04 01:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

it would have been interesting to see if the article would have been more favourably received if you had said it was by somebody else!!

hrm...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,009
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: GazzBut]
    #2678310 - 05/14/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex, it would have been interesting to see if the article would have been more favourably received if you had said it was by somebody else!!



A stinky turd smells the same no matter who shits it out.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Chomsky on how to get out [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2678339 - 05/14/04 04:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But if you had to sniff one of Bush's or Kerry's, you'd go for Shrubs?

Best of a bad choice?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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