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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Let's define the word "natural"
    #1127246 - 12/10/02 01:28 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

The word "natural" seems to be redundant any way it's used. The dictionary defines it in all kinds of ways:

"Expected and accepted" "Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature"
So, if something is unnatural, then it's simply ironic?

"Present in or produced by nature"
Well, this is where things get really problematic, because everything is produced by or in nature. LSD is natural because it was made by a human who is, yes, natural. Even if you believe God created us then aren't we still natural because isn't God all of nature, or if he's a man in the clouds, then natural?

Let's either destroy or redefine this word, people. The way most people off-handedly use it is "not artificial" but then at the same time these people would consider a gun less natural than a pointed stick. Beware! thinking about this can put one in an endless brain loop with the only exit being.. insanity!


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1127370 - 12/10/02 02:15 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Yeah...........brain loop.  :crazy:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1127392 - 12/10/02 02:23 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I say destroy it. I always thought that word was unnatural and a nuisance.


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1127417 - 12/10/02 02:34 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I have dealt with this argument before. Look at it like this. Does it occur in nature without manipulation by man?

Let's take cocain for instance. By your reasoning it is natural because man made it. But you will NEVER find cocain growing on a bush or just laying on the ground (unless someone spills it but then who spill cocain?)

SO, if you need a lab.....it ain't natural.....

It's kinda like "orgainc" eh? what isn't organic? It's just how much you manipulate the "natural" environment.....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Edited by upupup (12/10/02 02:35 AM)


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1127577 - 12/10/02 03:25 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I have to go with the Zen Buddhist philosophy of everything being natural.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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OfflineLlamanose
The llama knows

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 1,868
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #1127584 - 12/10/02 03:26 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

"Doesn't making nature against the law seem a bit, I don't know, unnatural?" -Bill Hicks


--------------------
Alice came to a fork in the road.  "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don't know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."
~Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1127620 - 12/10/02 03:37 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Well, this is where things get really problematic, because everything is produced by or in nature. LSD is natural because it was made by a human who is, yes, natural. Even if you believe God created us then aren't we still natural because isn't God all of nature, or if he's a man in the clouds, then natural?

So true!  To me, something natural is anything that is created by God (or Nature) and not modified by human hands.  I think that Native Americans lived so much more naturally than us because they took from nature what they needed, but did not change or modify it to make it "better" in their eyes.  They simply took and used what nature had to spare for them. 

But look at modern day humans.  Look around you right now.  Everything near you is probably completely and utterly unnatural.  For some reason, we cannot leave nature in its original form.  We feel the need to take from nature more than what we need, and to change it and make it "better". Perhaps it is because Nature is God and by modifying Nature we are playing God. 
If you tell me you wouldn't like to be God for a day, you'd be lying.  But by creating our own little worlds within the one that we've been given (like politics and TV and video games and computers), we can be Gods everyday.

Anyway...

I think what I'm trying to say is that things that have not been created or modified by human hands are natural! :smile:


--------------------
Namaste.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1127666 - 12/10/02 03:53 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

uh oh, I was afraid of this!

Does it occur in nature without manipulation by man?
ay ay ay! holay-molay! This thread is going to become an endless loop!

Let's take cocain for instance. By your reasoning it is natural because man made it. But you will NEVER find cocain growing on a bush or just laying on the ground (unless someone spills it but then who spill cocain?)
But here's the problem: Trees make oxygen, mushrooms make psilocybin, cattle make methane, humans make cocaine. humans are just another animal, just like cows. Is oxygen unnatural because it's made by a life form? In my view humans are equal with all other life, so why should something we make be declared unnatural? See what I mean? Hear what I'm saying? Smell the  MADNESS of it all?

Does it occur in nature without manipulation by man?
Uh oh. Does man occur in nature?
:crazy:


Edited by Dogomush (12/10/02 03:55 AM)


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 301
Loc: GA
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1127673 - 12/10/02 03:56 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I say, once the human hands manipulate the structure of the atom. Than it is unnatrual, until then. Everything is natrual.


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1127692 - 12/10/02 04:03 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

I say, once the human hands manipulate the structure of the atom. Than it is unnatrual, until then. Everything is natrual.
Hmmm. See, I always imagined people from the future sending back emissaries in time machines. Who would have thought they'd send words?


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1127693 - 12/10/02 04:03 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

We need to get over this obsession that if something is "natural" it must be the best.

Nature has mad a ton of mistakes. There is nothing wrong with improving where mother nature left off. All of the genetic diseases that are due to "slip ups" on evolutions part (nature) are very likely going to be cured or treatable in the next thirty years.

Just because humans manipulate nature doesn't make it cursed or malevolent.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: chemkid]
    #1127700 - 12/10/02 04:06 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Just because humans manipulate nature doesn't make it cursed or malevolent.
Wait a minute.. who sent you?


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 301
Loc: GA
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1127707 - 12/10/02 04:11 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

nothing is wrong in changing the bad things earth has to give us into good things...its the good things that we destroy that pisses me off.


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: GrowingVines]
    #1127754 - 12/10/02 04:30 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

But man is only doing what is in his nature to do. Why doesn't it piss you off when an elephant destroys a bunch of trees and shrubs? Everything has it's consequences: good and bad.

Don't get me wrong.....we do have brains and it is simply illogical to dump concentrated toxins into our drinking water, so I hear you on these issues but overall man does what man does best.....find, consume, find more, improve ways on how to find more and make it last longer and support a larger population, force ourselves toward extinction or move to new area. So what is wrong with this?? :grin: 


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 4 days
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1128115 - 12/10/02 09:56 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

The only problem with your arguement is that man has to be defined as being somehow outside of nature. We are just one "natural" element involved in the process of creating cocaine.

Just as the right soil is one element that has to be present in the growing of a cocoa bush.

That plant wouldnt grow in the desert, does that make it unnatural when it grows where the conditions are right??

We are nature so when we change things it is only nature changing nature. It is an ego affectation to see ourselves as outside of nature. Thats why much of our technology seems intrusive and bad. But thats the way it is supposed to be. When we modify genes it is a process that has been going on for millenia. Nature has now found away to manipulate itself quicker and quicker. We are just the agent of this change. That is all.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: chemkid]
    #1128212 - 12/10/02 10:48 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Nice to see you posting with us again.  You were missed.

Have a Happy Holidays. :smile:

Cheers,


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: ]
    #1128504 - 12/10/02 12:53 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

AHHHHH shucks......you're so sweet. Has Swami been bad mouthing the newbies? I have come to take their beatings for them!!


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Anonymous

Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: chemkid]
    #1128746 - 12/10/02 01:52 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Persons of reason are always welcome in this forum as are people who are compassionate and kind. When a person is both they make the world a better place to be. Swami is Swami. (no correlation meant between the last sentence and any other)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: chemkid]
    #1128781 - 12/10/02 02:02 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Remember, Swami backwards is: I'm a w--s.. No wait - that can't be right!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1128895 - 12/10/02 02:41 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

So true! To me, something natural is anything that is created by God (or Nature) and not modified by human hands. I think that Native Americans lived so much more naturally than us because they took from nature what they needed, but did not change or modify it to make it "better" in their eyes. They simply took and used what nature had to spare for them.

When I read this I came to the realisation that human's give themselves WAAAAY too much credit. By your statement about "anything that is created by god or Nature and not modified by human hands" you basically imply that human hands are unnatural. Granted, this has been pointed out with previous arguments, but if you think of the connection with this phrase and the common ideology of society, to come to this conclusion one may have taken the following path --> group 1 doesn't agree with group 2's way of doing things, whatever the reason may be: they term this way of doing things wrong, and therefor against the ways of nature. This implies that they know what's "right", and this goes back to the racism/homosexuality post, which is stated there as a tad arrogant.

I think "wrong" can be defined as anything that produces more loss than gain for the benefit (sp?) of the global population. By population I mean everything. Rocks, trees, spiders, humans and the like. When trees are cut down and mountains are excavated, When there is not more taken than needed - a.k.a. clearcutting and burning as an example, where's the problem with 'nature evolving' itself to do different things? The problem is, people in power are the ones who decide what is best for the whole, and without approaching problems from every possible angle and without the consideration of personal gain, the decisions made are always going to be biased.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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