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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,787
Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25035770 - 03/03/18 01:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Pastoral nature is our fave, rolling hills, fruiting trees, a heard of sheep with lambs, baaa, baaaa...
This is the niche we have adapted with, along with fish and gardening - farming,
selections from nature that are both beautiful and healthy.
Some parts of nature are nasty, and some parts of humanity as well.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: man v. nature [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25035870 - 03/03/18 01:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I might buy that, but one must realize that pastoralism and farming constitute a direct assault on the natural environment. Think of all the animals and plants that must be systematically destroyed in order for farming to be possible. The positive side which you discuss is offset by a negative and destructive side which is often ignored, glossed over or misunderstood. In any case, by any reasonable measure, it seems that, on the whole, man's experiment is running into a lot of crises, and it's far from clear whether man can remedy them on his own.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #25036081 - 03/03/18 03:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

man v. nature

technology v. biology

i call it

technology vs. freedom

we are surrounded by ubiquitous, inscrutable, advanced technologies that cause massive disruption to our psyche, environment and bodies. 

man is yet to invent anything that nature hasn't already invented.  i stand by and will defend this statement.

the characteristic difference between man and everything living on earth is that man has artificially created objects.  what heights could man have reached had he devoted the millennia of his developments to the natural rather than the artificial world?

the power of technology continues to grow exponentially, and its ability to assert control on the planet is rapidly increasing.  the gains technology provides do not improve the human condition.  further pains of technology are not predictable or manageable.  if the crisis is obvious it is far too late.

nature takes care of itself.  it is the exact opposite of technology.  in the absence of advanced technology man would live close to nature.
what have we sacrificed?

"progress" is a self-congratulatory myth.  it's difficult for most to loose faith in "progress"

an awareness of the true perniciousness of the technocratic path is needed to move people back to the primary source - nature.

Quote:

Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an axe in the hand of a pathological criminal.  -- Albert Einstein




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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25036829 - 03/03/18 09:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
What do you think of the idea that the human race is like a seed pod in the sense that we take up a lot of energy to produce but we spread the genetic heritage of the organism to new worlds ie. we might be the ones that seed new planets with life. Would our environmental destruction be morally justified if we were to create new worlds?





But where does it stop? If all we do is grow for the sake of growth, we'll just go on to destroy other worlds too. But it occurs to me that, as one poster pointed out above, A.I. will be a major factor. It seems to me that man is not destined for the stars, but our cybernetic descendants would be perfectly suited to it. They could send out millions of robotic probes, whereas humans require a ridiculous degree of life support just for something so trivial as a single mission to Mars.


I am reminded of this bit by George Carlin:

Quote:

Ah, yeah. We're gonna go to Mars. And then of course we're gonna colonize deep space. With our microwave hot dogs and plastic vomit, fake dog shit and cinnamon dental floss, lemon-scented toilet paper and sneakers with lights in the heels. And all these other impressive things we've done down here. But let me ask you this: what are we gonna tell the intergalactic council of ministers the first time one of our teenage mothers throws their newborn baby into a dumpster? How are we gonna explain that to the space people? How are we gonna let them know that our ambassador was only late for the meeting because his breakfast was cold and he had to spend half an hour punching his wife around the kitchen? And what are they gonna think when they find out, its just a local custom, that over 80 million women in the Third world have had their clitorises forcibly removed in order to reduce their sexual pleasure so they won't cheat on their husbands? Can't you just sense how eager the rest of the universe is for us to show up?







I don’t mean to come off as pretentious, but I don’t think you or Carlin have fully grasped the ambiguity of life ie. you can have crackhead mothers dumping their babies and super intelligent AI at the same time, and each can be useful for spreading genetic information into the future in their own way. If AI go further into space then us I think that would be great, but I don’t think we would be far behind.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: man v. nature [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #25037093 - 03/04/18 12:12 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think what Mr. Carlin (and I) were trying to say is that perhaps man may not improve the cosmos by colonizing it, for a variety of reasons. I know this causes cognitive dissonance in people like you, but the fact of the matter is that it could possibly be the case.

And why, pray tell, do you imagine humans will follow A.I. entities into the cosmos? Not to get off topic, but do you see a future for biological man if an A.I. revolution -- a singularity -- takes place? I think that, no matter what happens, man's days (at least as biological beings) are numbered, personally.


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 8,062
Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25037648 - 03/04/18 09:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

People make a lot of assumptions about how AI will be but the potential for it seems limitless to me. It seems such predictions say more about an individual's imagination than likely realities.

Quote:

people like you




smh, whatever happened to speaking to the argument? This is why I don't spend much time in the political forum.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: man v. nature [Re: Rahz]
    #25037708 - 03/04/18 10:32 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

No personalism. I just mean people who believe that unlimited growth = progress.


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25037840 - 03/04/18 11:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I just mean people who believe that unlimited growth = progress.




Improvement, progress, these are subjective things which mean whatever you like them to mean. What makes you think the rest of the universe is any "better"? Humanity is a mixed bag. I don't claim to know, but best guess is that the universe is the same. We are it and it is us. It is you that is perceiving a dichotomy between your own nature and the rest of the universe. Cognitive dissonance?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: man v. nature [Re: Rahz]
    #25037993 - 03/04/18 12:55 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

That doesn't make any sense to me. I never said anything about the universe being "better." What does that even mean? I also never said man was separate from nature. I drew a parallel between the self-regulated ecosystems and man's institutions for the sake of convenience. I perceive no real dichotomy between my own nature and that of the universe, and never said so.

Maybe bother about understanding my positions before you attack them?


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 8,062
Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25038126 - 03/04/18 01:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Doesn't make sense to me either, but

Quote:

perhaps man may not improve the cosmos by colonizing it




Maybe your definition of better is different from mine, but from the quote you quoted they seem the same. Blingbling didn't exactly say unlimited growth = progress (although subjectively it could be). He seemed to be suggesting that humans and other lifeforms colonize when they can because they can, like seeds. It stops when some other aspect of nature prevents it. There's no intelligence in nature being a self regulating system to whatever degree it is, it's just a product of competition and limited resources. Humans being more intelligent than the average bear (among other qualities) is what has allowed us to colonize the earth and become the primary candidate for the first brained species to create colonies beyond Earth. You seem to be conflating intelligence and wisdom which just makes things confusing, and again whatever homeostasis the Earth has experienced is primarily circumstantial, not wise.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: man v. nature [Re: Rahz]
    #25038161 - 03/04/18 02:16 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I disagree. Nature strikes me as abundantly intelligent, so I am really at cross-purposes with everything you've written, but to get into the nitty-gritty of the nature of evolution would take us rather far afield. That said, I value your perspective, and appreciate your post.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25038170 - 03/04/18 02:22 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

What I mean by "intelligent" is that Nature and evolution are not random processes, but unfold in an orderly and subtly structured way. I feel there is a dimension of order along with the chaos.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Registered: 06/01/13
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Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25038177 - 03/04/18 02:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think you would need to be invincible to conquer nature fully.. and be able to fly..

This is like Niietzshes concept of the overman


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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,222
Re: man v. nature [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25038397 - 03/04/18 04:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

yes and maybe lend (on) how we succeeded if we suceeded

success is possible in many ways

taking care of weedds

putting positive things in the garden

meditating

going high

I am giving good pushes

I have also screwed up

I think there is infinite potential

I think the state can approac infinitely good (or infinitely positive).


--------------------
which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew

Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


Edited by Ferdinando (03/05/18 05:56 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 30,787
Re: man v. nature [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25038682 - 03/04/18 06:41 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
yes and maybe lend (on) how we succeeded if we suceeded

success is possible in many ways

taking care of weedds

putting positive things in the garden

meditating

going high

redgreenvines is a man of big success and he is sharing here

and I am giving good pushes

I have also screwed up

I think there is infinite potential

I think the state can approac infinitely good (or infinitely positive).



hey
please do not quote me that way, and use my name in context of success, I am no millionaire or anything.
please do not use my name to make your post meaningful.
we are each here on our own merit.
please.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: man v. nature [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25039678 - 03/05/18 05:44 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sorry, I didn't think about that

we all did our best

man has more merit than dogs


--------------------
which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew

Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: man v. nature [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25039684 - 03/05/18 06:15 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think there is no limit to the merit we can have
or how much merit we can have

the more merit one has the better one has it (I think)

have a good day


--------------------
which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew

Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


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InvisibleFerdinando
Male

Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,222
Re: man v. nature [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25039982 - 03/05/18 11:02 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I think I have it OK now, redgreenvines


--------------------
which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew

Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
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Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25041384 - 03/05/18 09:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
No personalism. I just mean people who believe that unlimited growth = progress.




I never made that argument, your projecting.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: man v. nature [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25041418 - 03/05/18 09:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think what Mr. Carlin (and I) were trying to say is that perhaps man may not improve the cosmos by colonizing it, for a variety of reasons. I know this causes cognitive dissonance in people like you, but the fact of the matter is that it could possibly be the case.

And why, pray tell, do you imagine humans will follow A.I. entities into the cosmos? Not to get off topic, but do you see a future for biological man if an A.I. revolution -- a singularity -- takes place? I think that, no matter what happens, man's days (at least as biological beings) are numbered, personally.




Ok, so you don’t want us to destroy the environment, but creating new ones in space is not on either? I would think that if one loves life that they would like there to be more of it no? Personally, i would like us to keep environmental degradation to a minimum and if we can, spread life to the stars. Unfortunately there are some trade offs that have to be made to achieve these two goals, trade offs that are likely best assessed on a case by case basis.

Regarding AI and humans in space, the only truthful thing I can say is that I don’t know what will happen. We don’t know how far AI will go. Anyway the future of the human race is extinction, whether that be through environmental degradation or maybe we will evolve into a new species that kills all remaining sapiens.So we agree on that at least.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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