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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Swami]
    #1129468 - 12/10/02 05:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

W.S. = Wang Sucker?

(Just joking, Swam).  :grin:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: GazzBut]
    #1129560 - 12/10/02 06:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is not just to you Gazz but to anybody who is supports the idea that because man is part of nature that what we do is just a part of nature too (sounds like a love and rockets song).

That argument is mere sophism. If by breathing you can make cocain then do it ( a refernce to the poster who equated respiration with gross manipulation of the environment). A story to expound-

A young man goes off to University from his small town. He comes back years later and says to his Rabbi "Rabbi, I don't know what to think anymore. I am so confused. In University I learned so much and now can argue any point equally as well. I don't know what is what?" The old Rabbi thought for a moment, then punched the young man squarly on his nose breaking it. The young man screamed in pain "Rabbi, you just broke my nose!!!" the old Rabbi said "What nose?"......


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1129597 - 12/10/02 06:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If by breathing you can make cocain then do it

I was about to say something about this too.  :wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Posts: 889
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Murex]
    #1129632 - 12/10/02 06:28 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

not really good advice though I must say...cocain = bad....or at least not good...


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1129671 - 12/10/02 06:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you. But if we are just nature changing nature.....hasn't nature gone a tad bit suicidal?


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1129688 - 12/10/02 06:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

if we are just nature changing nature.....hasn't nature gone a tad bit suicidal?
I believe algae was the first being to produce oxygen. All other life on the earth coming in contact with this oxygen died because it was a toxic gas at the time, so its happened before.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1129700 - 12/10/02 07:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

This is not just to you Gazz but to anybody who is supports the idea that because man is part of nature that what we do is just a part of nature too (sounds like a love and rockets song).
That argument is mere sophism. If by breathing you can make cocain then do it ( a refernce to the poster who equated respiration with gross manipulation of the environment). A story to expound-


How is respiration not equal to gross manipulation of the environment? What's the difference? Is a chimpanzee using a stick to gather termites any different from a human using a nuclear bomb? Why?


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
Psychonaut

Registered: 09/17/02
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: chemkid]
    #1129983 - 12/10/02 08:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

yea, i agree, but do keep in mind that humans have a tendency to fuck shit up bad, and cause irreversible damage.


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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OfflineSnuffelzFurever
Psychonaut

Registered: 09/17/02
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1129996 - 12/10/02 08:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

isnt coke natural? or mebbe coke is synthetic chemical of something natural... not sure. just wondering :-)

anywho, everything is derived from something natural... does that make it natural tho... question i been asking mahself forever now, heh


--------------------
"I think it's time we stop
Children, What's the sound,
Everybody look what's going down"


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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1130250 - 12/10/02 10:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Good questions...this is tough stuff but it's important I think because the position that a person comes to affects how they interact with their environment. I am not sure I can logically put this all into words as the rabbi in my above post was trying to convey to the young man.

There are cultures where it is beleived they understood the difference between consuming more than what you needed and understanding their role in the cycle of things. There is evedience (check out the book called "voices of the first day") that aboriginal tasmanians at one point REJECTED fire technology and would only use fire that occured naturally or if they allowed their fires to go out which I would guess they did not without some kind of major accident, they would borrow it from a neighboring clan.

I guess the difference is in a level of how much the environment gets manipulated. To me the measuring stick is "can I produce this thing if I were in the middle of the forest?" Breathing I can do in the forest without using anything but my lungs. Using a stick to gather termites requires no lab or displaced energy (using more energy than I can as a human body, produce in one day) as it would to make the bomb.

I hope that made some sort of sense....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: SnuffelzFurever]
    #1130275 - 12/10/02 10:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's the subject of this whole thread eh?....

To me coke is not natural because you can't just go out and find it. My mother chewed coca leaves as a little girl and said it was like having a can of pop that had a bit of caffiene in it...


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1130451 - 12/10/02 11:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

upupup your definition just doesn't work man.

I guess the difference is in a level of how much the environment gets manipulated.
I think that releasing a poisonous gas which ends up killing all life is a manipulation of the environment greater than anything mankind has done, and that was done by algae. Is a comet that stirs up dust which blocks out the sun and destroys millions of species unnatural? I don't think so. keep trying.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1131115 - 12/11/02 06:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

And to all thiose who think we are not part of nature - not just you upup

Are we supposed to stop evolving? stop making mistakes? stop progress? Obviously not, that would be bucking the trend of the whole of time.

How can we be outside of nature? take some shrooms and think about this hard. Remember we arent special, remember we are just DNA replicating itself over and over again. Some of the things we do may look real bad close up but in the bigger picture theres nothing wrong! Did you know that Oxegyn was a threat to the planet before gaia evolved herself to use it effectively?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (12/11/02 06:22 AM)


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: GazzBut]
    #1131363 - 12/11/02 11:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Great stuff to think on, I wish I could do a vulcan mind meld with you guys...

to me it just seems simple and that may be my problem with understanding the perspective that whatever man does is just a part of nature. I maybe trying to simplify it too much. Hell, I am a huge hypocrite anyway for if I were to put into practice what I am saying then would I even be communicating with all this technology?


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Anonymous

Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: nubious]
    #1132307 - 12/11/02 12:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think everything is natural, some things are just considered more natural. Things that take less interference, ingredients, processes, etc to create are considered the more natural. For instance, you can make tea easier than you can make coke, therefore tea would and is considered more natural. The things we consider most natural like mountains, land, rivers,etc.. were all created by luck, chance, coincidence, whatever word you want to use so there was greatly small interference involved.


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OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: ]
    #1132327 - 12/11/02 12:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with you in that things are considered more "natural" when they involve less interference. It's kind of like we have the choice to swim against the current or with the current; either way it's "natural" but going with the flow is more natural because there is less struggle and a minimum amount of energy is wasted.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Adamist]
    #1132359 - 12/11/02 12:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

well put....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1132386 - 12/11/02 01:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



Dogomush, hat is a good friggin' point!!

I like it! I have never heard that argument before. I see what you mean about this Thread leading to insanity!!


--------------------
---Still Searching---


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Anonymous

Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Adamist]
    #1132565 - 12/11/02 02:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Thats a good explanation of the theory..thanks adamist


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Offlineupupup
guardian

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Re: Let's define the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1133479 - 12/11/02 08:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

OK how bout this. Because I don't see how even primitive man came up with metal, unless it was naturally occuring as it has been found from meteorites and such, I say technology that took people to that level did not evolve on this planet....

There, that explains why further manipulation of things that exsist in nature is not natural. It is because the technology to manipulate the environment came from off planet....

BUT if you really wanted to then you could just ask if the universe is not a part of nature thus anything, even off planet resources would still be a part of nature....there really is no end to this.....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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