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OfflineSpecialEd
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Natural/Man Made
    #2552624 - 04/13/04 12:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I was thinking today that natural occuring phenomena are so much better than things mankind has contrived.

The ambience of a trumpet defeats the synthesizer

Someone relates an anecdote to you, and you laugh about it for days until you find out it wasn't true. The story loses it's appeal since it isn't true.

We have plastic trees

A musician can hypnotize me with a set of bongo drums, but when I overhear hip hop, I get a headache from the crappy beat.

I would rather spend a day in a forest than in an art gallery.

People grow in vitro.

People pay other people to rake their yards and cut the grass.

Tobacco is made in factories.

Just some random thoughts


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2552641 - 04/13/04 12:34 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I hate this argument...

Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2552659 - 04/13/04 12:38 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I wasn't really making an argument...or was I?

hmmmmmm.

Do you get what I'm trying to say? 

Once, in an engineering course at the University of Kansas, my Professor divulged that he did nuclear weapons work for the government.  This man in a Navy Outfit declared "BEAUTIFUL!" 

What a skeletal wreck of man he is. :shake:


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2552662 - 04/13/04 12:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

...hip hop hits right to the soul,
rza beats is outa control, outa control, now here we go...


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2552682 - 04/13/04 12:45 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I get what you're saying... but your articulation is too broad.

Van Gogh used man-made paints to create your avatar.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2552696 - 04/13/04 12:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I thought that piece of art grew off of a tree?!? Actually, I like that piece because it reminds me of experiencing lsd out at the lake at dusk.

I don't argue with your statement that all things are natural directly or indirectly, I am just stating my preference for "analog" vs "digital" if that makes sense.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2552830 - 04/13/04 01:22 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I remember going up to the mountains and seeing snow and saying aloud how beautiful it was.  Then I was informed that the snow was man-made.  It just wasn't as beautiful, any more.  :crazy:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2552832 - 04/13/04 01:23 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

nothing man has made can rival the sunrise, the rainfall, the ocean or the forests...

that said, most of your initial examples were contradictory, or just really confusing ...


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2552844 - 04/13/04 01:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nothing man has made can rival the sunrise, the rainfall, the ocean or the forests...




:thumbup: friend.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2552872 - 04/13/04 01:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ahhhh...

:tongue:  :heart:

now i feel bad for ragging on your examples...

this thread makes me think of my cabin. every granite rock is  a painting, every tree a masterpiece...

ahhh... summer


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2552920 - 04/13/04 01:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

hummans are part of nature, and anything that is a product of nature is natural. Therefore man made objects are natural because man is a part of nature.

But i understand your point. :oogle:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2553030 - 04/13/04 02:14 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The ambience of a trumpet defeats the synthesizer

Special Ed, you just lost 10 man-made points. For your assignment, I want you to travel the world over and find just one trumpet (no, not a datura flower) growing in field or forest.

Both instruments are marvels of technology from different eras. The trumpets timbres are highly limited and polyphony is one note. A modern synthesizer has a polyphony of around 16, nearly unlimited timbres, a much greater dynamic range and can be recorded with the use of an intermediary microphone. Synth: 4; trumpet: 0.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2553073 - 04/13/04 02:26 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Way to totally break down his argument in a technicality and crush his wonderful thoughts. ..... Anways, I agree SpecialEd, nothing manmade can mimic nature, because nature is spontaneuos . That being said, there are many things man made that are more useful then thenature counterpart, but let's not get confused on what is the ultimate creation of the universe.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2553089 - 04/13/04 02:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Special Ed, you just lost 10 man-made points. For your assignment, I want you to travel the world over and find just one trumpet (no, not a datura flower) growing in field or forest.




bzzzzzzzzzzzt! Moderaters, take this man away.

I understand what you mean, but my earthshattering statement breaks up nicely between the binary nomenclature of analog vs digital which is analagous to Man Made vs Natural.

If you have an audiovisual program that plays music and represents the sound waves graphically, you notice that analog instruments, like a trumpet, have gracefully smooth and continuous waves, while a synthesizer looks like the output of a polygraph machine hooked up to GeeDub.


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Edited by SpecialEd (04/13/04 02:34 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2553115 - 04/13/04 02:40 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How is a trumpet not man-made? Please explain.

Man-made analog vs. man-made digitial is not even close to natural vs. man-made. Doesn't even make sense.

*bull horn* PLEASE PUT DOWN THE DRUGS AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY!.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2553123 - 04/13/04 02:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Way to totally break down his argument in a technicality

A HUGE factual error is a technicality? So word arrangement and truth have no bearing when communicating?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2553128 - 04/13/04 02:44 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How is a trumpet not man-made? Please explain.





You are right. I will not argue that a trumpet is not man made.

Quote:

Man-made analog vs. man-made digitial is not even close to natural vs. man-made. Doesn't even make sense.





You understand what I am saying, but your skeptic mind is pushing it out.

Quote:

PLEASE PUT DOWN THE DRUGS AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY!




But, but, they're man-made analog drugs...the good kind!


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2553232 - 04/13/04 03:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Post Script:

Oh, and as for trumpets that grow in the wild...Certain sea conchs produce a horn sound when blown.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2553511 - 04/13/04 08:20 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly.




Exactly. To believe otherwise is to somehow place Humans outside of nature.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2553702 - 04/13/04 10:27 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>Anways, I agree SpecialEd, nothing manmade can mimic nature, because nature is spontaneuos
-Are you saying because of the chaos in nature there aren't rules to describe it? We can make computer models that mimic nature, for example.

>the ultimate creation of the universe.
-Just to "carrify"... what IS the ulitmate creation of the universe.

Ed, you said that Tobacco is made in factories (and is therefor bad) but tabacco is a GROWN outdoors and evolved the properties it had through nature. Medicines are produced in factories, so naturally collected herbal remedies should be more effective? My point is you can't just draw a line between two things like that, it's over generalized.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2554255 - 04/13/04 01:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

h, and as for trumpets that grow in the wild...Certain sea conchs produce a horn sound when blown.

An animal skeleton of calcium carbonate is now the same as a refined and shaped brass tube? That's it. Keep losing credibility.  :headbang:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2554414 - 04/13/04 02:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

and as for trumpets that grow in the wild...Certain sea conchs produce a horn sound when blown.

It's not until a sufficient portion of the top of the conch is cut away that it can be used as a horn. Furthermore, the range of this particular musical instrument is extremely limited (unlike a trumpet).


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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2554594 - 04/13/04 03:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you guys are just ripping into this like there's no tomorrow..

i'm trying to figure out a simple way to word special ed's so called "argument" (when in fact it was more just a thought than an argument)..

let's see:
quite simply, boiling everything down to a technical level takes the beauty and mystery out of life.

example: while i don't care what means a musician uses to create his music, i find that i enjoy it much more if i don't know.


--------------------

funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2554995 - 04/13/04 04:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
If you have an audiovisual program that plays music and represents the sound waves graphically, you notice that analog instruments, like a trumpet, have gracefully smooth and continuous waves, while a synthesizer looks like the output of a polygraph machine hooked up to GeeDub.




Actually this would have more to do with ones lungs than anything. We as humans have incredible control (well, some more than others, hehe) of our voice and the trumpet could be seen as a device that amplifys that breath and gives it a different, amplifyed sound.

It would be much more difficult to master a synthesizer with a trumpet sound than it would be to get that amazing range of dynamics and feel than using a real trumpet with your breath. 

So basically the synthesizer could be seen as a more capable tool than the trumpet. However, the person playing is just as important, and we are so much more able to express ourselves naturally with our breath. Of course, an advanced synthesizer player is going to be really tuned into how much pressure and depth they are applying on the keys and they will be just as capable of expressing themselves on the same level as a good trumpet player.

So, are you saying, SpecialEd, that you think it is more of a beautiful thing when we are more invovled, or when our tools are? Of course, we DID create those tools, and that is a beautiful thing as well... but I think you are getting at it being more of a beautiful experience when you cook your own food and express yourself when doing so rather than go out and buy it. Or something.

I'm just adding thoughts and not really selecting anything as what I really think... this one is purely a matter of perspective and preference.  :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Natural/Man Made *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2555214 - 04/13/04 04:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by jonnywax

Reason for deletion: ~



--------------------

funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2555247 - 04/13/04 05:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
h, and as for trumpets that grow in the wild...Certain sea conchs produce a horn sound when blown.

An animal skeleton of calcium carbonate is now the same as a refined and shaped brass tube? That's it. Keep losing credibility.  :headbang:




Go to the beach and listen to the ocean, close your eyes, relax and record its sound with the best recording hardware you might find.
Go to your house and play the ocean sound you've just recorded with the best HiFi.
Now, would you experience the same relaxing moment in your house ?
Try to focus on the objective of specialed argument. It has nothing to do with man made vs not man made. It has to do with the limits of technology regarding nature... or at least i see that way.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2555251 - 04/13/04 05:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I see that most htings that man does, is just really copying nature.

sure the rumpet was made by man, but what does it give?? music!!

the result is what we are trying to achieve, and most of these results happens in nature, man tries to duplicate it.

so I guess saying

"Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly"

:thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: lukeboots]
    #2555258 - 04/13/04 05:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2555278 - 04/13/04 05:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I forgot what the point of this thread is..... It doesnt matter if something is considered natural or unnatural. There are things that are natural thare are deadly. There are things that are manmade that are deadly. It doesnt matter if something is natural or not, it doesnt make a difference because in the bigger picture it really depends what you are classifying as natural or man made. some mushrooms will kill you, others you can put on pizza. Man made weapons and they can kill, but man also made guitars that unless your the mariachi, dont kill.


Theres really no point in this thread. There is nothing in this world that is completely unnatural. Everything came from nature, it is just the way its arranged that makes the difference....


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Offlinewhiterabbit13
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2555529 - 04/13/04 06:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I also think it is weird how cow milk is processed through a machine. Just adding to the list.


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OfflineDroz Happy Birthday!
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: whiterabbit13]
    #2556677 - 04/13/04 09:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You could always break down nature into it's own creations. Not only does nature have it's seperate entities. It can create wonderful entities together. The way that the trees create a wonderful habitat for the birds just as the way the man creates a walking path through the forest, and the bear creates his hideout deep in a cave. All things natural and man made when it comes to scenery and the wilderness are equally magnificent.

Another thing, the forests have wonderful entities. The trees, the bushes, the plants and the small creatures that live in it. Sometimes people get sick of mans creations because they destroy this lovely habitat.

Peace,
Droz


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Evolution of Time.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2556701 - 04/13/04 09:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So, are you saying, SpecialEd, that you think it is more of a beautiful thing when we are more invovled




Overall, my main thrust was that things that people create cannot compete with things he does not in terms of beauty and appeal.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2556720 - 04/13/04 10:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

An animal skeleton of calcium carbonate is now the same as a refined and shaped brass tube? That's it. Keep losing credibility.




You hear what I am saying, but you do not see it for what it is.


Could you state my thought in your own words so that I can see if you understand or not. If it pleases you, I can concede to the point that the trumpet vs synthesizer point is out of place.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: MAIA]
    #2557137 - 04/13/04 11:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Go to the beach and listen to the ocean

Relevance to anything that I previously discussed?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2557155 - 04/13/04 11:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Could you state my thought in your own words

No. Am still trying to follow what you are saying.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2557159 - 04/13/04 11:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ah poor specialed...
the message i got from his post was beutifull simple and true, but then he messed himself up with all those screwy examples.

I guess theres just nothing that man makes that gives me more happiness than warm sun, clear lakes, green trees, fresh air, rain etc

anyways go back to ripping apart the post line by line now...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2557183 - 04/13/04 11:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I guess theres just nothing that man makes that gives me more happiness than warm sun, clear lakes, green trees, fresh air, rain etc

I will wager heavily that you, along with 99% of the posters here, sleep indoors in a man-made house and man-made bed with heating and air conditioning instead of out underneath the beautiful stars and on the rain-soaked or snow covered natural ground.

Correct?


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2557187 - 04/13/04 11:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If you don't follow what I say, why do you participate in this thread?


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2557259 - 04/14/04 12:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

swami...
i tried with you, i really did. But theres only so long i can try to pour water into a closed bottle, only so long i can throw rubber balls at a brick wall.

I know how this sounds to you. maybe pretentious, or arrogant or just stupid but i dont care man. I mean i tried SO HARD to have a discussion with you in any semblance of a productive debate or a spirit of comraderie, but again and again you give me snide , rude comments, abject put downs, evasions of the true points whilst you rip ruthlessly in to tiny errors or paltry specifics.

ah... i so didnt want to do .. should i just delete it, leave it unsaid?

nah...


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2557394 - 04/14/04 01:10 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

" I will wager heavily that you, along with 99% of the posters here, sleep indoors in a man-made house and man-made bed with heating and air conditioning instead of out underneath the beautiful stars and on the rain-soaked or snow covered natural ground.
"

Did he say ANYTHING about sleeping outside? No, he was just refering to his love of nature. And I can agree. Just because we live in the modern world doesen't mean we can't enjoy nature... your arguments are really low sometimes man.


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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2558896 - 04/14/04 01:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

^^ agreed. just because someone thinks that nature is beautiful, doesn't mean it's -comfortably- beautiful. my house is in no way beautiful, but its a great place to sleep.


--------------------

funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2559030 - 04/14/04 01:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

your arguments are really low sometimes man.
Low? They are either valid or invalid. Decrying man-made things while taking full advantage of them is called hypocrisy.

Did he say ANYTHING about sleeping outside?
He said that he preferred nature, but that appears not to be so. If being in nature gave more pleasure to one than being indoors, why would one choose to sleep indoors unless it gave one more pleasure? This really is not that hard to follow.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2559057 - 04/14/04 01:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

But theres only so long i can try to pour water into a closed bottle, only so long i can throw rubber balls at a brick wall.
Physical stamina can be improved with proper diet and training.  :yesnod:

whilst you rip ruthlessly in to tiny errors
It was "only a tiny error" that caused the space shuttle to blow up. Basing a philosophy upon small errors puts the entire conclusion or outlook into question.  :spliff:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2559069 - 04/14/04 01:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Decrying man-made things while taking full advantage of them is called hypocrisy.




1. Nobody decried anything man made. This thread stated that "natural" things are beautiful

2. You admitted that you don't follow what I am saying

3. Why do you continue to participate if not to gain understanding?


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  /l_l\/
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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2560174 - 04/14/04 05:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

thats what i wonder...
i mean i know your not a stupid man. THats why it mystifies me that your so determined to constantly ignore the point of everything you post about...

basically you have no interest in meaningull discussion or contributing to the ideas raised. You tear down without building up. You take without giving. As far as i can tell your sole purpose on this board is to get some kind of sick ego satisfaction and possibly ease some kind of loneliness (that last one is pure speculation) but its sure as hell not to learn anything, not to teach anything...

Honestly, you should turn your act around or get a new hobby (just go ! )

anyone who thinks this is a flame hasnt seen how fuckin hard i tried to get this guy into some kind of meaningull conversation. I begged! begged for him to show me and this board some fucking respect, and just follow some basic rules of discussion etiquette. I asked him to follow his own rules and those of common friendship.

i mean this thread (and especially this thing about sleeping outdoors) is the most basic and obvious example of this ive seen so far. I say 'i love the sunrise' and he says 'then how come you dont sleep outside?' i mean im not even going to try to explain the obvious problem here because EVERYONE ELSE AREADY SEES IT!

why are you being like that swami?
i just dont get your fuckin trip anymore
parasite



Edited by PHARMAKOS (04/14/04 05:49 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2560196 - 04/14/04 05:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

basically you have no interest in meaningull discussion



Why do you say that?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2560627 - 04/14/04 07:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Its me and Swami against the world!!!
Doesnt pointing out potential flaws in a philosophy do a service to the creator of the philosophy, allowing them to rework the philosophy to make it more consistant/accurate?


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2560763 - 04/14/04 08:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

sigh
im basing this mostly on all the times we were talking about OBE's and objective/subjective realities. I would spend a long time trying so hard to put my point in simple, straightforward terms so that i could get it across. Id write like a page. then you would come back with some one line put down about one tiny thing i wrote and totally ignore all the rest.

So i go back. I try in even more straightforward steps to explain the thing you pointed out, then sumjmarize the rest again. This time i specifically ask you to adress lets say 3 small points. Again i spend a long time on this and try to be as non offensive as possible.

Then im ignored completely. Suddenly a new post shows up with a snide little put down about the point i was talking about, but still no sign of any response to any of my questions or points.

So i try again. and again. and again. a godamit

why am i even doing this? lets just say i was at first suprised by the way your were actin, then frusterated, than angry...

i dunno. early on i thought swami was great because he always provided a counterpoint to any argument, which is especially good when people get a bit to new agey or spacey. But try as i might i couldnt get you to respond to anything i was raising. THat didnt stop you from popping in with a few more little put downs and one liners...


ah enough of that. I sometimes forget that not all people get along, and with this many people in the world to talk to , why do i waste so much time on the ones that really get to me?

sorry for calling you a parasite...

but i was thinking worse things
:razz:


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OfflineEuphoricBlue
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2560787 - 04/14/04 08:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly. "


Three letters XTC. More natural that one might think. A formula wispered into the ear of the right person at the right time by the right beings...hhhmmmmmm

Chad


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OfflineHefex78
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*DELETED* [Re: EuphoricBlue]
    #2560798 - 04/14/04 08:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted. Reason for deletion: Confidential.


Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 09:34 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2561405 - 04/14/04 11:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Doesnt pointing out potential flaws in a philosophy do a service to the creator of the philosophy, allowing them to rework the philosophy to make it more consistant/accurate?

No, it merely gives the creator an excuse to rant and rave about what a bully you are, even if your point is correct. Convincing others is w-a-y more important than any consitency.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDroz Happy Birthday!
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2561619 - 04/15/04 12:44 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Back on topic....

I think when man takes a part of nature and creates things with it, it can sometimes be more beatiful then you think. Say i take some plants and build myself a gazeebo(sp?) in the back yard. Also add a nice bird cage and some gorgeous birds. Decorate here and there and the things that man can create are beatiful. Not saying that I have to grow these plants from seeds to be created from man. Even though we all came from the same universe. Man and Natural created things can be just as equally splendid.

Now here is a better question. Now that man is here, do we ever look back at how the nature of this universe created us? We are beatiful entities just like the birds in my imaginary bird cage next to my gazeebo. Humans do spend lots of time creating things that harm nature more then they do good, but so do other animals, plants and trees. We have this tree in my area that is from Australia, it basically plants itself and builds a huge population that can overwhelm a whole forest. The paper tree in non scientific terms is what it is called by myself and many others. See now there are plenty of "natural" things that can ordain much harm as they do good. An overpopulation of trees now can lead to extinction of certain other plant life just as it can lead to heavy forest fires which can damage an environment more then anything.

But of course man could take more precations with what he does like protecting those oil tankers so they don't leak anymore oil. That is one main thing that i'd like to point out about us humans that we could do better.

So far i've pointed out a couple things on both sides of the spectrum.

What do you think about my argument?

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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OfflineHahzist
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Droz]
    #2561891 - 04/15/04 02:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Droz, I read this whole thread, and thats the best post right there. There really is nothing to argue with about that. :thumbup:

As for the whole a trumpet is natural and a synthesizer is not debate. Even though I believe its a pointless arguement, it does make sense. As fireworks god pointed out, the trumpet is used with human breath and creates natural notes from the person. Whether your talking about a trumpet or a sea conch, or a wooden flute, its the same deal. Some people find this type of music more soothing, natural, spiritual, whatever :sun:. Dont try to argue that Swami, because there is no argument. You can talk about people being hypocrites by not living outside all you want, but your not making any sort of real counterpoint to the true point that was being made. And now with your most recent replies you are doing nothing more than trying to make people look bad and not arguing any points at all. :crazy:

In light of Swami. You are a very logical, and smart guy. In many instances, you have a good case, and sometimes a better one. It just seems like this time your trying too hard to not back down.

In a nutshell, Droz made a good point, Swami doesnt have an argument, but getting personal and saying Swami does this for a sick pleasure and has no life is a ridiculous assumption. He could just be messin around, or maybe he just doesnt like to back down in an argument.  :wink:


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Hahzist]
    #2561927 - 04/15/04 02:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

sorry this is the result of a lot of frusteration from the "achieving OBE's through the dreamstate" thread that came up a while back...

not really to do with this thread at all
ack


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InvisiblePapaverS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2562333 - 04/15/04 05:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you cannot go against nature
because when you do
go against nature
it's part of nature too...


"No New Tale to Tell," Love and Rockets (c. 1988)

Don't mind me. I'm just doing a little research for a paper I'm writing on contemporary message board management issues... :smirk:


--------------------


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2564172 - 04/15/04 04:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Go to the beach and listen to the ocean

Relevance to anything that I previously discussed?




What do you want to discuss then ?
Relevance is subjective....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: psikooz]
    #2565040 - 04/15/04 07:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hummans are part of nature, and anything that is a product of nature is natural. Therefore man made objects are natural because man is a part of nature.





Your extension that man made objects are natural because man is a part of nature does not really agree with your initial statement.  Man may be a product of "nature", thus making him "natural", according to you.  But that does not logically support your continuation that man made objects are natural. 

By your definition "anything that is a product of nature is natural", so therefore for a man-made object to be "natural", man would have to be "nature".

But what the fuck is nature?  There are many definitions.

Let's look at some definitions of the word "natural":

Quote:

  nat?u?ral    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (nchr-l, nchrl)
adj.
1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

4. a. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
  b. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
  c. Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
6. Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
7. Faithfully representing nature or life.
8. Expected and accepted: ?In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love? (Duff Cooper).
9. Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.
10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.





So, there's 10 definitions courtesy of The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company

Ok....now, let's look at an example.  Genetically modified tomatoes with salmon genes in them.  This is done so the tomatoes can grow in colder climates.  According to the thinking of many here, this is natural because it was done by man and anything man does is natural.

But let's run it through the definition guantlet, shall we?

1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.

This seems to imply something which occurs in the ecosystem without man's intervention so it looks like the salmon tomatoes are a no-go on this one.  But i'll give this one to you since this definiton is vague.

2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment

Vague...we'll skip it.

3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature

Ok, here we go.  We'll assume "ordinary course of nature" to mean the way in which a tomato or a salmon would normally produce offspring.  Please explain to me how, by this definition, a tomato with salmon genes is natural?

4. c. Biology. Not produced or changed artificially

Hmmm.....

5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions

A tomato with salmon genes -- spontaneous?  free from affectations?

6. Not altered, treated, or disguised

Another obvious one

7. Faithfully representing nature or life

Since there's no way a salmon and a tomato could ever hook up in life, I'd say this one's a no-go.

8. Expected and accepted

A tomato with salmon DNA? I never expected that!  It doesn't sit too well with me either.

9. Established by moral certainty or conviction

Hmmmm...a tricky one.  The morality of crossbreeding salmon and tomatoes..........

10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.

I wonder if they had salmon-tomatoes in cave men times? :tongue:


OK....i know this is getting to be a bit tangential and nit-picky or something.  My point is that we have more of a philosophical responsibility to define terms like "natural" when there are potential consequences that weigh our decision.  Of course the word natural is ambiguous "by nature" :eek: but maybe we should think about what the word implies a bit more before we just write it off and say, oh well, everything must be natural because it's here. 

Is something natural because it exists, or is there more to it than that?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2565821 - 04/15/04 10:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"My point is that we have more of a philosophical responsibility to define terms like "natural" when there are potential consequences that weigh our decision."

I agree, anything genetically altered to fit some other purpose then its original purpose is not natural. Even if these things exist in nature, it does not make them natural....... The problem here is that would imply there is a 'true nature' about the universe, a set way for the transformation and happening of everything. To make such a statement would seem to some: wrong. They would say ' Is it not my god given right to take control of this reality present to me and change it for the benefit of humanity?' The answer is yes, but we have to consider the flip side: human nature, inherrently evil(imo) and what that would mean to the science of genetical tinkering. People would use it for the wrong reasons, new and terrible genetically altered diease bombs would threaten a new wave in warfare, new animal species would be created to fit human needs, and all the while, the natural rythem of the Earth is being disrupted. So it is my thinking that things of this matter should be banned for the sake of all humanity. Is this saying it is wrong, therefore implying moral standards? No, it is saying there are universal natural laws that should not be broken, and this is one of them.. Will this stop it from happening in the future? Only time will tell, but I think once this technology becomes available there will be a citizen uproar to debate it, but ultimatly it will prevail for the 'benifit for humanity' and slowly, or perhaps from the start it will be corrupted like every other political power house who uses greed to run things.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2567580 - 04/16/04 01:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I agree. We have a responsibility to the ecosystem to preserve the genetic legacy of billions of years of evolution on Earth.

This notion that anything man does is natural because man is produced from nature (at least for now...) is a copout.

If everything is natural, what's the point of even having the word "natural" in the lexicon? We already have several words that denote 'everything'. Let's either preserve the traditional notions that are carried by the word "natural" or throw the word out altogether.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2568699 - 04/16/04 07:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
I hate this argument...

Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly.





if I recall, my first ever post on this board was quite a long rant about that exact subject. I lurk here occasionally, still, but it's shit like this that keeps me from having any real interest anymore. I never see any progress here. I *really* don't like repeating shit 50x over. bleh. :thumbdown:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2569227 - 04/16/04 09:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

We are deep into "rerun" season now.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #2569930 - 04/17/04 02:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Who the fuck are you?
And where the hell do you get off quoting me?!!






okay.... I'll allow it. *continues listening to Mr. Bungle*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2570057 - 04/17/04 02:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

  :shake:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2570159 - 04/17/04 03:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
I was thinking today that natural occuring phenomena are so much better than things mankind has contrived.




Better in what sense? Would you disagree if I said that many medicines invented by human beings are superior to the chemicals that are currently known to exist in nature?

It seems to me that your point was an aesthetic one. I agree that human creations are generally not as aesthetically pleasing as natural ones, but "better" has more than one sense.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2570227 - 04/17/04 04:28 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Would you disagree if I said that many medicines invented by human beings are superior to the chemicals that are currently known to exist in nature?




Yeah, but dont get me started on medical practices...I'll go into a rant about rogaine and breast implants and why those are bad too.

Quote:

It seems to me that your point was an aesthetic one. I agree that human creations are generally not as aesthetically pleasing as natural ones, but "better" has more than one sense.





I'd rather be a sparrow than a snail.
Yes I would.
If I could,
I surely would.

I'd rather be a hammer than a nail.
Yes I would.
If I could,
I surely would.

CHORUS
Away, I'd rather sail away
Like a swan that's here and gone
A man grows older every day
It gives the world
Its saddest sound,
Its saddest sound.

I'd rather be a forest than a street.
Yes I would.
If I could,
I surely would.

I'd rather feel the earth beneath my feet,
Yes I would.
If I could,
I surely would.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
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  /l_l\/
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