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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature...
    #2265248 - 01/23/04 11:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is true to a certain extent.  :shake:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265256 - 01/23/04 11:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No I'll say it is entirely wrong.

Science is only the tool...it does not corrupt nature any more than a hammer does.

Humans are, as always, the problem. (in how we use science)


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: trendal]
    #2265293 - 01/23/04 11:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

trendal: I believe if some woman is not supposed to have a baby, there is a reason for it.

And the same thing goes for the opposite side. If a woman is supposed to have a baby, but the baby gets murdered by abortion, there was a reason for that baby living.

Put it like this:

The country is being threatened by terrorists, and nothing is stopping them. The current president eventually makes a bad decision and our country gets overtaken.

Sometime in the past, a woman was going to have a baby, but didn't want it and had an abortion. Little did anyone know, but that baby would've outran the current president in an election, and would've made a smart decision that would stop the war.

This post isn't supposed to be based around abortion, I just used it as an example of one of the ways I feel science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature.


Edited by HidingInPlainSight (01/23/04 11:33 AM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265326 - 01/23/04 11:40 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Again, science has not corrupted anything. Humans have. "Science" does not cause the abortion! It may create the possibility...but it remains only a possibility until a human chooses to use it.

Something else we have to look at is your definition of "reason".

Quote:

I believe if some woman is not supposed to have a baby, there is a reason for it.




Yes, there IS a reason: she has something wrong with her reproductive system. That does not mean we should not try to FIX what is wrong!

Say you come down with a disease which is usually fatal but which science has discovered a cure for. Is there a "reason" for you being sick, beyond the simple fact that you have been infected with a virus? Is it "wrong" in some way to use the cure we have discovered to FIX the problem? Do you deserve to die?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: trendal]
    #2265333 - 01/23/04 11:43 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You are right with what you say about humans choosing to use science to corrupt nature.

Science has the ability to help, but hurt also.

I'm one of those guys who belives in the eveything happens for a reason philosophy.


Edited by HidingInPlainSight (01/23/04 11:45 AM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265340 - 01/23/04 11:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm one of those guys who belives in the eveything happens for a reason philosophy.

As am I :smile:

Again: what is your definition of the "reason"?

Mine is fairly simple: cause preceeds effect, and every effect has a cause. :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265355 - 01/23/04 11:59 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i have to agree with trendal on this one
science is only a tool
humans are the problem

plus...if everything happens for a reason, then that woman was meant to have an abortion

if that baby was meant to become president, then it would.


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265364 - 01/23/04 12:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> No I'll say it is entirely wrong.

I will second that.

> Science is only the tool...

Exactly. You might as well claim that mathmatics corrupts nature. The problem is that there is a lot of voodoo-science out there... people spouting off bullshit as science... and they confuse the laymen (and often the professional) as to what science really is.

Read the 1974 CalTech commencement speach by Richard Fynman (nobel prize winner)... he explains things much better than I...

http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html

A small snippet or two:

Quote:


During the Middle Ages there were all kinds of crazy ideas, such as that a piece of of rhinoceros horn would increase potency. Then a method was discovered for separating the ideas--which was to try one to see if it worked, and if it didn't work, to eliminate it. This method became organized, of course, into science. And it developed very well, so that we are now in the scientific age. It is such a scientific age, in fact, that we have difficulty in understanding how witch doctors could ever have existed, when nothing that they proposed ever really worked--or very little of it did.

But even today I meet lots of people who sooner or later get me into a conversation about UFO's, or astrology, or some form of mysticism, expanded consciousness, new types of awareness, ESP, and so forth. And I've concluded that it's not a scientific world.





and

Quote:


Another example is the ESP experiments of Mr. Rhine, and other people. As various people have made criticisms--and they themselves have made criticisms of their own experiements--they improve the techniques so that the effects are smaller, and smaller, and smaller until they gradually disappear. All the para-psychologists are looking for some experiment that can be repeated--that you can do again and get the same effect--statistically, even. They run a million rats--no, it's people this time--they do a lot of things are get a certain statistical effect. Next time they try it they don't get it any more. And now you find a man saying that is is an irrelevant demand to expect a repeatable experiment. This is science?

This man also speaks about a new institution, in a talk in which he was resigning as Director of the Institute of Parapsychology. And, in telling people what to do next, he says that one of things they have to do is be sure the only train students who have shown their ability to get PSI results to an acceptable extent--not to waste their time on those ambitious and interested students who get only chance results. It is very dangerous to have such a policy in teaching--to teach students only how to get certain results, rather than how to do an experiment with scientific integrity





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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265376 - 01/23/04 12:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

not science itself..but rather the use of science as "advertising" for social and political agendas..and the impossibility of getting funding for scientific research for any other purpose...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265488 - 01/23/04 01:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Humans and our tools are just as much a part of nature as anything else, and I think it's pretty arrogang to believe that we are somehow above or separate from nature.

Why is it that it was "meant to be" for a woman to be unable to have a child, but it wasn't "meant to be" if we can find a way around the problem?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2265494 - 01/23/04 01:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"I'm one of those guys who belives in the eveything happens for a reason philosophy."

Except if humans were involved?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: Phluck]
    #2266091 - 01/23/04 04:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Humans and our tools are just as much a part of nature as anything else, and I think it's pretty arrogang to believe that we are somehow above or separate from nature.

Take a look at a computer and compare it with any naturally occurring object. You can tell there are fundamental differences. A line between the natural and the artificial can be drawn. Technology does exactly that, separates us from nature.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: raytrace]
    #2266116 - 01/23/04 04:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Is a beaver's dam natural? How about a bee hive? At what point does an animal's construction become unnatural?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: Evolving]
    #2266297 - 01/23/04 05:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, the line is fuzzy. One can come up with several different arguments from different points of view. For example, one may discriminate between physiological manipulations of nature and genetic manipulations. But I don?t think this is sufficient, there are grey areas in most distinctions like this.

However, just cause there seems to be no rule of thumb, at least not an obvious one, that does not mean I can equate the man made with the natural. A digital sound is a different thing than an analogue sound. We can know every little detail about a digital sound. On the other hand, a natural sound is infinite in depth. You can never know what lies beyond our current audio susceptibility.

If I have to make up one rough-and-ready rule, that would be that unnatural is an artefact which we can understand completely. This is the closest to a definition that I can make up right now, probably more of a starting point for examining the borders of natural.

Another thing that comes to mind (which is more relevant to your examples with the beavers and bees) is to consider whether something is the result of a conscious action in contrast to an automatic response.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: raytrace]
    #2266376 - 01/23/04 06:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Just to make myself clear, cause I am posting this under the science corrupts nature thread. I neither think that unnatural objects are bad or anything close to that, nor am I defending the technology is evil sort of thing. I love digital sounds. There are however certain technologies I am not fond of.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2266930 - 01/23/04 10:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is an exerpt from Huxley's book "Island."


(Page 217 of 295, or .74)

"[H]ow early do you start your science teaching?"

"We start it at the same time we start multiplication and division. First lessons
in ecology."

"Ecology? Isn't that a bit complicated?"

"That's precisely the reason why we begin with it. Never give children a chance of imagining that anything exists in isolation. Make it plain from the very first that all living is relationship. Show them relationships in the woods, in the fields, in the ponds and streams, in the village and the country around it. Rub it in."

"And let me add," said the Principal, "that we always teach the science of relationship in conjunction with the ethics of relationship. Balance, give and take, no excesses---it's the rule of nature and, translated out of fact into morality, it ought to be the rule among people. [...]"

IF science was regarded this way it would be a beautiful thing.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2268331 - 01/24/04 03:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ledzepln86 said:
I believe if some woman is not supposed to have a baby, there is a reason for it.

And the same thing goes for the opposite side. If a woman is supposed to have a baby, but the baby gets murdered by abortion, there was a reason for that baby living.




Your reasoning doesn't even make sense. You say the same thing goes for the opposite side but your next example isn't even opposite, you switch it at the end. If it was opposite, it would be "If a woman is suspossed to have a baby, but gets an abortion, there was a reason for the baby being aborted."

You can't say that everything happens for a reason and THEN say that these things that happen over here weren't meant to happen. Doesn't compute.

Obviously, if the baby was meant to live, then he would have lived. What you are saying is the same exact thing as "If a lion has two baby cubs, and a hyena murdered one, there was a reason for that lion cub to live", and nature has been corrupted, perverted, and exploited.

Well, that doesn't make sense to me. Seems VERY natural to me. The only difference I see is that we are more evolved, which happened naturally, and what we do is more complex and we have more options.

What happens HAPPENS and obviously was meant to happen, otherwise it wouldn't have happened. Seems simple enough. No law of nature is being desecrated here. You might not feel that abortion is right, but that doesn't mean that "God's will" or "nature" is being raped.

If we as humans were never meant to get to a point where we can fuck with the threads of reality, we obviously would have never developed the ability to conceptualize and to make tools. Oh, here's a stick, just a piece of a tree. But I can use it to dig a hole. No, Mr. Caveman, you can't do that! It's not natural! Get back in that tree and eat those leaves!  :rolleyes:

:grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Science corrupts/perverts/exploits nature... [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #2268711 - 01/24/04 06:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Although I agree to an extent that we need to take a good critical look at science I really don't like your example. Who are you to tell a woman she shouldn't abort because her baby is meant to live? What if the woman was meant to get impregnated for the sake of learning something, but then was meant to abort it?

There are already far too many humans on the planet as it is, its ridiculous to bring unwanted ones to term. If I got pregnant at this point in my life I'd abort, a few months ago I really didn't know what I'd do then I had a pregnancy scare and found my answer. Thankfully it was a false alarm. I really don't think abortion is an issue that men have any right to have a judgement on. If you had to face carrying one inside your body when you really weren't prepared for it I bet you'd have a different philosophy. It's easy enough for men to run away when they're faced with a child but a woman is pretty much stuck with it, unless she puts it up for adoption. There are already tons of kids up for adoption and a lot of them never find parents.

Also women have been aborting unwanted foetuses since the beginning of time. There are a wide variety of herbs that will cause miscarriage if you take enough over a long enough period of time. Pennyroyal tea for one, Papaya... there are a lot more I can't remember them all. They're called abortifacients or emmenagogues (they bring on a period.) Science has just come up with more intrusive and uncomfortable (but more guaranteed) ways of doing it.


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