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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
My definition of the word "natural"
    #1135947 - 12/12/02 04:51 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

Ok, so I've been argueing in a previous thread that everything is natural and that the word "unnatural" shouldn't exist. Now I'm going to give a definition that I think is pretty good.

When an organism conciously changes his relationship to his environment, he's acting unnaturally. I think we can all agree that the original state of humanity is hunting/gathering, so agriculture is the original unnatural act. When a farmer builds a buffer against starvation with crop surplus, then he has cut a tie with nature. The human population no longer lives by the population of non-artificially seeded plants and animals. He has stepped out of his ecosystem. This is different from evolving towards a different niche because evolution is not done conciously. Some would say that a culture's progression from hunter/gathering to agriculture to industry and on is a kind of evolution, but it is not. The artificial supports that keep our modern world intact could collapse and send us back to our primitive state, whereas in evolution when a species changes, there is no going back. The changes are permanent.

According to my definition it would be natural to make a stone tool to further your hunting and gathering. It would also be natural to use a gun, or a torpedo!


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: My definition of the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1136184 - 12/12/02 06:06 PM (15 years, 5 days ago)

That is similar to concepts in a book called "Ishmael" which was later messed with a bit and made into a movie with Anthony Hopkins where he played some mad sceintist or somthing like that. In the book Ishmael is a talking ape that has an ongoing dialog with a man.

Just being picky sorta but I think gather/hunter is more appropriate as I believe that "primitive" mans main food was plants and not critters.....

I must admit however that you lost me as soon as you mentioned the torpedo as I have never seen one used in hunting.....though I can see where it would be really effective for large scale fishing ventures....

In your deffinition you state - When an organism conciously changes his relationship to his environment, he's acting unnaturally.

Is not making metal contrary to that deffinition thus making your statement It would also be natural to use a gun, or a torpedo! invalid?

ANY help in using this spell checker would be appreciated....


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: My definition of the word "natural" [Re: upupup]
    #1138398 - 12/13/02 12:08 PM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Well, I used the torpedo as a joke, I don't think it's too practical to hunt with but it does explain my definition a bit more. What I was trying to get across with it is that although the hunter/gatherer is using this advanced technology, he still hasn't changed his relationship to his environment. Rather than using a harpoon to go on a traditional whale hunt he uses a torpedo, but it still is the same old whale hunt. Of course, you're right that it's pretty much impossible to work metal and create advanced weaponry without that basic support pillar that is agriculture. It was a silly example, but do you see what I mean? If an ancient Haida somehow got a torpedo and used it then he hasn't really severed the tie with the flow of nature. His tribe still flourishes or starves depending on the fish population, and the fish population flourishes or starves depending on the little fish population and that population flourishes or starves depending on the shrimp population (or whatever) and so on and so on until you connect every single living organism on the planet. A human practicing agriculture isn't quite as tied in with this web, however because the agrarian people's population thrives or dies based on how hard the humans work to establish a fail safe crop system.


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Offlineandrash
The Oceanminder

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 86
Loc: Rome, Italy
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: My definition of the word "natural" [Re: Dogomush]
    #1139904 - 12/14/02 12:52 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Sorry for not being able to express all my thoughts in a proper way, since I'm Italian and it's so difficult to speak about "philosophy" even in our own language...

What we must consider is that the category "nature" is always being considerate as opposite to "man" concerning the classical philosophy.
So it means that everything that relates to man cannot be "natural" because it belongs to a different category.
It doesn't mean that man is unnatural... it's a kind of a mind trick. It's a way to looking at things giving a name, a class to which belong...
In this way anything that is created by man is unnatural...
Consider this -> trees produce oxigen: natural process
-> man produces oxigen: unnatural process
oxigen is neither natural or unnatural... it simply exists.
LSD doesn't exist in natural form... you must produce it. So it's unnatural.
Psilocybin exists in natural form in mushrooms.
LSD isn't better than Psilo... nor the opposite.
Natural isn't better than unnatural... they must live together in armony.
Man needs to live in armony with nature.
It doesn't imply that he can't manipulate it.
Only that he should know honestly the reason to do it.
And then do it for the good of mankind.

Thank you for your patience,

Love,

Andrash


--------------------
--- Who am I, where is me, when I' am away from myself? --- F. Battiato


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Anonymous

Re: My definition of the word "natural" [Re: andrash]
    #1139914 - 12/14/02 12:55 AM (15 years, 4 days ago)

Welcome to the Shroomery and welcome to SPS! :smile:

Enjoy your stay.  Nice post.

Cheers,


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