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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2558896 - 04/14/04 01:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

^^ agreed. just because someone thinks that nature is beautiful, doesn't mean it's -comfortably- beautiful. my house is in no way beautiful, but its a great place to sleep.


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funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2559030 - 04/14/04 01:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

your arguments are really low sometimes man.
Low? They are either valid or invalid. Decrying man-made things while taking full advantage of them is called hypocrisy.

Did he say ANYTHING about sleeping outside?
He said that he preferred nature, but that appears not to be so. If being in nature gave more pleasure to one than being indoors, why would one choose to sleep indoors unless it gave one more pleasure? This really is not that hard to follow.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2559057 - 04/14/04 01:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

But theres only so long i can try to pour water into a closed bottle, only so long i can throw rubber balls at a brick wall.
Physical stamina can be improved with proper diet and training.  :yesnod:

whilst you rip ruthlessly in to tiny errors
It was "only a tiny error" that caused the space shuttle to blow up. Basing a philosophy upon small errors puts the entire conclusion or outlook into question.  :spliff:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2559069 - 04/14/04 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Decrying man-made things while taking full advantage of them is called hypocrisy.




1. Nobody decried anything man made. This thread stated that "natural" things are beautiful

2. You admitted that you don't follow what I am saying

3. Why do you continue to participate if not to gain understanding?


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2560174 - 04/14/04 05:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thats what i wonder...
i mean i know your not a stupid man. THats why it mystifies me that your so determined to constantly ignore the point of everything you post about...

basically you have no interest in meaningull discussion or contributing to the ideas raised. You tear down without building up. You take without giving. As far as i can tell your sole purpose on this board is to get some kind of sick ego satisfaction and possibly ease some kind of loneliness (that last one is pure speculation) but its sure as hell not to learn anything, not to teach anything...

Honestly, you should turn your act around or get a new hobby (just go ! )

anyone who thinks this is a flame hasnt seen how fuckin hard i tried to get this guy into some kind of meaningull conversation. I begged! begged for him to show me and this board some fucking respect, and just follow some basic rules of discussion etiquette. I asked him to follow his own rules and those of common friendship.

i mean this thread (and especially this thing about sleeping outdoors) is the most basic and obvious example of this ive seen so far. I say 'i love the sunrise' and he says 'then how come you dont sleep outside?' i mean im not even going to try to explain the obvious problem here because EVERYONE ELSE AREADY SEES IT!

why are you being like that swami?
i just dont get your fuckin trip anymore
parasite



Edited by PHARMAKOS (04/14/04 05:49 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2560196 - 04/14/04 05:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

basically you have no interest in meaningull discussion



Why do you say that?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2560627 - 04/14/04 07:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Its me and Swami against the world!!!
Doesnt pointing out potential flaws in a philosophy do a service to the creator of the philosophy, allowing them to rework the philosophy to make it more consistant/accurate?


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2560763 - 04/14/04 08:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

sigh
im basing this mostly on all the times we were talking about OBE's and objective/subjective realities. I would spend a long time trying so hard to put my point in simple, straightforward terms so that i could get it across. Id write like a page. then you would come back with some one line put down about one tiny thing i wrote and totally ignore all the rest.

So i go back. I try in even more straightforward steps to explain the thing you pointed out, then sumjmarize the rest again. This time i specifically ask you to adress lets say 3 small points. Again i spend a long time on this and try to be as non offensive as possible.

Then im ignored completely. Suddenly a new post shows up with a snide little put down about the point i was talking about, but still no sign of any response to any of my questions or points.

So i try again. and again. and again. a godamit

why am i even doing this? lets just say i was at first suprised by the way your were actin, then frusterated, than angry...

i dunno. early on i thought swami was great because he always provided a counterpoint to any argument, which is especially good when people get a bit to new agey or spacey. But try as i might i couldnt get you to respond to anything i was raising. THat didnt stop you from popping in with a few more little put downs and one liners...


ah enough of that. I sometimes forget that not all people get along, and with this many people in the world to talk to , why do i waste so much time on the ones that really get to me?

sorry for calling you a parasite...

but i was thinking worse things
:razz:


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OfflineEuphoricBlue
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Registered: 12/03/02
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2560787 - 04/14/04 08:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly. "


Three letters XTC. More natural that one might think. A formula wispered into the ear of the right person at the right time by the right beings...hhhmmmmmm

Chad


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OfflineHefex78
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*DELETED* [Re: EuphoricBlue]
    #2560798 - 04/14/04 08:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted. Reason for deletion: Confidential.


Edited by Wa7sum (10/03/07 09:34 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2561405 - 04/14/04 11:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Doesnt pointing out potential flaws in a philosophy do a service to the creator of the philosophy, allowing them to rework the philosophy to make it more consistant/accurate?

No, it merely gives the creator an excuse to rant and rave about what a bully you are, even if your point is correct. Convincing others is w-a-y more important than any consitency.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2561619 - 04/15/04 12:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Back on topic....

I think when man takes a part of nature and creates things with it, it can sometimes be more beatiful then you think. Say i take some plants and build myself a gazeebo(sp?) in the back yard. Also add a nice bird cage and some gorgeous birds. Decorate here and there and the things that man can create are beatiful. Not saying that I have to grow these plants from seeds to be created from man. Even though we all came from the same universe. Man and Natural created things can be just as equally splendid.

Now here is a better question. Now that man is here, do we ever look back at how the nature of this universe created us? We are beatiful entities just like the birds in my imaginary bird cage next to my gazeebo. Humans do spend lots of time creating things that harm nature more then they do good, but so do other animals, plants and trees. We have this tree in my area that is from Australia, it basically plants itself and builds a huge population that can overwhelm a whole forest. The paper tree in non scientific terms is what it is called by myself and many others. See now there are plenty of "natural" things that can ordain much harm as they do good. An overpopulation of trees now can lead to extinction of certain other plant life just as it can lead to heavy forest fires which can damage an environment more then anything.

But of course man could take more precations with what he does like protecting those oil tankers so they don't leak anymore oil. That is one main thing that i'd like to point out about us humans that we could do better.

So far i've pointed out a couple things on both sides of the spectrum.

What do you think about my argument?

Peace,
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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OfflineHahzist
Surfing theWaves of Chaos

Registered: 02/15/04
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Droz]
    #2561891 - 04/15/04 02:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Droz, I read this whole thread, and thats the best post right there. There really is nothing to argue with about that. :thumbup:

As for the whole a trumpet is natural and a synthesizer is not debate. Even though I believe its a pointless arguement, it does make sense. As fireworks god pointed out, the trumpet is used with human breath and creates natural notes from the person. Whether your talking about a trumpet or a sea conch, or a wooden flute, its the same deal. Some people find this type of music more soothing, natural, spiritual, whatever :sun:. Dont try to argue that Swami, because there is no argument. You can talk about people being hypocrites by not living outside all you want, but your not making any sort of real counterpoint to the true point that was being made. And now with your most recent replies you are doing nothing more than trying to make people look bad and not arguing any points at all. :crazy:

In light of Swami. You are a very logical, and smart guy. In many instances, you have a good case, and sometimes a better one. It just seems like this time your trying too hard to not back down.

In a nutshell, Droz made a good point, Swami doesnt have an argument, but getting personal and saying Swami does this for a sick pleasure and has no life is a ridiculous assumption. He could just be messin around, or maybe he just doesnt like to back down in an argument.  :wink:


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Hahzist]
    #2561927 - 04/15/04 02:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

sorry this is the result of a lot of frusteration from the "achieving OBE's through the dreamstate" thread that came up a while back...

not really to do with this thread at all
ack


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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2562333 - 04/15/04 05:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you cannot go against nature
because when you do
go against nature
it's part of nature too...


"No New Tale to Tell," Love and Rockets (c. 1988)

Don't mind me. I'm just doing a little research for a paper I'm writing on contemporary message board management issues... :smirk:


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Swami]
    #2564172 - 04/15/04 04:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Go to the beach and listen to the ocean

Relevance to anything that I previously discussed?




What do you want to discuss then ?
Relevance is subjective....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: psikooz]
    #2565040 - 04/15/04 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hummans are part of nature, and anything that is a product of nature is natural. Therefore man made objects are natural because man is a part of nature.





Your extension that man made objects are natural because man is a part of nature does not really agree with your initial statement.  Man may be a product of "nature", thus making him "natural", according to you.  But that does not logically support your continuation that man made objects are natural. 

By your definition "anything that is a product of nature is natural", so therefore for a man-made object to be "natural", man would have to be "nature".

But what the fuck is nature?  There are many definitions.

Let's look at some definitions of the word "natural":

Quote:

  nat?u?ral    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (nchr-l, nchrl)
adj.
1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.
2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment.
3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

4. a. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
  b. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
  c. Biology. Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.
5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions. See Synonyms at naive.
6. Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
7. Faithfully representing nature or life.
8. Expected and accepted: ?In Willie's mind marriage remained the natural and logical sequence to love? (Duff Cooper).
9. Established by moral certainty or conviction: natural rights.
10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.





So, there's 10 definitions courtesy of The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company

Ok....now, let's look at an example.  Genetically modified tomatoes with salmon genes in them.  This is done so the tomatoes can grow in colder climates.  According to the thinking of many here, this is natural because it was done by man and anything man does is natural.

But let's run it through the definition guantlet, shall we?

1. Present in or produced by nature: a natural pearl.

This seems to imply something which occurs in the ecosystem without man's intervention so it looks like the salmon tomatoes are a no-go on this one.  But i'll give this one to you since this definiton is vague.

2. Of, relating to, or concerning nature: a natural environment

Vague...we'll skip it.

3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature

Ok, here we go.  We'll assume "ordinary course of nature" to mean the way in which a tomato or a salmon would normally produce offspring.  Please explain to me how, by this definition, a tomato with salmon genes is natural?

4. c. Biology. Not produced or changed artificially

Hmmm.....

5. Characterized by spontaneity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or inhibitions

A tomato with salmon genes -- spontaneous?  free from affectations?

6. Not altered, treated, or disguised

Another obvious one

7. Faithfully representing nature or life

Since there's no way a salmon and a tomato could ever hook up in life, I'd say this one's a no-go.

8. Expected and accepted

A tomato with salmon DNA? I never expected that!  It doesn't sit too well with me either.

9. Established by moral certainty or conviction

Hmmmm...a tricky one.  The morality of crossbreeding salmon and tomatoes..........

10. Being in a state regarded as primitive, uncivilized, or unregenerate.

I wonder if they had salmon-tomatoes in cave men times? :tongue:


OK....i know this is getting to be a bit tangential and nit-picky or something.  My point is that we have more of a philosophical responsibility to define terms like "natural" when there are potential consequences that weigh our decision.  Of course the word natural is ambiguous "by nature" :eek: but maybe we should think about what the word implies a bit more before we just write it off and say, oh well, everything must be natural because it's here. 

Is something natural because it exists, or is there more to it than that?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2565821 - 04/15/04 10:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"My point is that we have more of a philosophical responsibility to define terms like "natural" when there are potential consequences that weigh our decision."

I agree, anything genetically altered to fit some other purpose then its original purpose is not natural. Even if these things exist in nature, it does not make them natural....... The problem here is that would imply there is a 'true nature' about the universe, a set way for the transformation and happening of everything. To make such a statement would seem to some: wrong. They would say ' Is it not my god given right to take control of this reality present to me and change it for the benefit of humanity?' The answer is yes, but we have to consider the flip side: human nature, inherrently evil(imo) and what that would mean to the science of genetical tinkering. People would use it for the wrong reasons, new and terrible genetically altered diease bombs would threaten a new wave in warfare, new animal species would be created to fit human needs, and all the while, the natural rythem of the Earth is being disrupted. So it is my thinking that things of this matter should be banned for the sake of all humanity. Is this saying it is wrong, therefore implying moral standards? No, it is saying there are universal natural laws that should not be broken, and this is one of them.. Will this stop it from happening in the future? Only time will tell, but I think once this technology becomes available there will be a citizen uproar to debate it, but ultimatly it will prevail for the 'benifit for humanity' and slowly, or perhaps from the start it will be corrupted like every other political power house who uses greed to run things.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2567580 - 04/16/04 01:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. We have a responsibility to the ecosystem to preserve the genetic legacy of billions of years of evolution on Earth.

This notion that anything man does is natural because man is produced from nature (at least for now...) is a copout.

If everything is natural, what's the point of even having the word "natural" in the lexicon? We already have several words that denote 'everything'. Let's either preserve the traditional notions that are carried by the word "natural" or throw the word out altogether.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Natural/Man Made [Re: Sclorch]
    #2568699 - 04/16/04 07:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
I hate this argument...

Everything is "natural"... directly or indirectly.





if I recall, my first ever post on this board was quite a long rant about that exact subject. I lurk here occasionally, still, but it's shit like this that keeps me from having any real interest anymore. I never see any progress here. I *really* don't like repeating shit 50x over. bleh. :thumbdown:


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