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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Natural vs. synthetic drugs
    #581798 - 03/18/02 12:22 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Do you see any difference between them?

Some say they only care to do substances that exist naturally on the Earth because they are safer and because they are put here for us for our use. Synthetic drugs are just man's attempt to meddle in areas where mother nature has already done a perfectly good job.

Others say a psychedelic is a psychedelic, they both stimulate the same brain receptors, so they both take you to the same place. Just because they exist naturally or not doesn't matter because its still a chemical whether its synthesized inside a mushroom or in a laboratory.

I personally prefer natural drugs but I'll generally do whatever is available.


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OfflineEightball
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #581812 - 03/18/02 12:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

No.
i believe it is simple coincidence that we can find certain chemical chains in various plants and animals on earth. They are used as defence mechanisms towards other animals so they do have an affinity to bind to neural receptors. We happen to have receptors that these can lock into also but they have a *less* toxic effect on us. By no means are natural drugs any safer than synthetics.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #581991 - 03/18/02 06:16 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"they only care to do substances that exist naturally on the Earth because they are safer"

thats just incorrect
i could see why someone would like "natural" drugs better, because you are sure that they are in fact what you think they are
not because they are safer though
there are plenty of synthetic compounds that are virtually nontoxic, and many "natural" drugs that are highly dangerous


imo, we are animals.
we are nature.
what we create is just as much a part of the natural universe as anything else

compounds are dangerous because of their effects/side effects
not because they are "natural" or synthetic


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582007 - 03/18/02 07:12 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Biochemistry is one of the frontiers of the future, maybe one of the most exciting ones in my humble opinion.

Some guys got a brainwave some time ago. They said: Hey: Psilocin is a dialkyltryptamine, there's a tryptamine skeleton in Lysergide (LSD)... Let's make the simplest dialkyltryptamine there is & see what it does...
So they basically slapped an ethyl on an indole, ammoniated the f#cker and put two methyls on that one for good measure. And voila: You've got this great new synthetic called N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, hey: let's go Ape & call it DMT!

It proved to be a wonderful new synthetic Psychedelic... And then: "Hey man: I just found that there DMT of yours in the Caapi vine..." "Far out man: It's even in Phalaris grasses..."
"DUDE !!! DMT IS ALL OVER THE PLANTWORLD !!!"
So the synthetic proved to be one of the most widespread all-Natural Alkaloids on the Good Earth. In fact: there's a couple of hits in your brain RIGHT NOW !!!
Most of the Pharms that exist today wouldn't be here if we hadn't gotten clues from Nature...

Now 4-Bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine is a synthetic Mescaline analogue that Shulgin cooked up. Who can tell it doesn't exist in Nature? Perhaps Alexander Shulgin's chemistry that yielded this 2CB thingie saved us a 30.000 lightyear trip to yank a root out of Alien Soil that contains all-Natural 2CB. So what's synthetic today may well be a Natural thing somewhere in a Rainforest or on an Alien World.
Who knows?
One thing's for certain tho: Chemistry has saved multitudes of millions of lives & if that LSD thing hadn't been there, perhaps there wouldn't BE a Shroomery...

Personally: if I get to choose between shrooms & synthetic Psilocybin pills, I'll choose the latter. Sure I'd rather recommend Valerian Root Tea than Thalidomide for an anxious insomniac pregnant lady (I'm a Herbalist too) but I'd rather go to Edgewood Arsenal to get a shot of a known safe dose of Agent BZ than to yank some flowers offan Angel's Trumpet & drink the tea thereof.
Sometimes Natural's better, sometimes it's best to go Synthetic...



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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: Eightball]
    #582067 - 03/18/02 09:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

By "safer" I mean time tested. You feel a sense of security when you eat mushrooms because you know people have been doing the same thing for thousands of years with no ill effect. Not so with some weird chemical someone just synthesized in his basement last year.

But on the other hand plants don't have a vested interest in making the most benign chemicals possible. They desire to ward off predators, and to do this they can make toxic compounds.

I dunno, I asked this question because I haven't made up my mind myself. Thanks for the opinions.


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582073 - 03/18/02 09:16 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Someone asked this in the Other Drugs forum not long ago...this is what I wrote:

If by "natural" you mean plant-based drugs, then ofcourse they have advantages over synthetics...they grow back, for one thing.

Many psychoactive plants have a long history of aboriginal use, and therefore a long record of safety or lack thereof. Thanks to them, we know that some of the tropane alkaloids (for example) can be dangerous, or that psilocybin-bearing mushrooms are relatively safe. No need to fuck about being a guinea pig (unless you decide to experiment with some of the lesser-studied botanicals)...others have done it for you.

Cultivating your own goodies makes you independent of sub-moronic drug dealers, and what starts out as a search for a cheap, sustainable high often ends up as a new hobby. Sure, the same could be said for chemistry, but it's stupid to think that many people ever advance to the level that they can synth their favourite chem. On the other hand, anyone can be a gardener.

Plants usually don't contain a great deal of the desirable substances, making over-indulgence less of an issue. Far easier to get munted on pharmaceutical morphine than on opium, even tho' the active drug itself is identical in this case.

So it's not that natural drugs are superior by virtue of being "natural"...just that being found in nature makes them more accessable, harder for the authorities to control, cheaper and almost certainly safer. I can understand why people choose to use them exclusively.

Besides, considering that valium, methamphetamine and PMA have all been found in nature, the whole argument becomes more and more redundant. I'll be waiting patiently till someone finally finds that elusive E tree...;)

End of rant.

==================================================

>Some say they only care to do substances that exist naturally on the Earth because they are safer and because they are put here for us for our use.

Fine, but they aren't automatically safer at all. It's just that because they usually have a history of traditional use, we have some idea of how safe they are/aren't. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they're "natural" tho', and I'd prefer to take a measured dose of pharmaceutical scopolamine than chew on a Brugmansia flower.

I also really hate this attitude that we're automatically entitled to use whatever we find in nature. If I fancy getting off my tits one day, is it OK for me to go harvest some peyote or Acacia phlebophylla? Nothing in nature is "put here for us for our use". I've seen this attitude in one form or another from both "hippies" and the people who make a living cutting down native trees. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Humans are a species among many. It's sad that so many people need reminding.

>I personally prefer natural drugs but I'll generally do whatever is available.

So do I (sort of -- I don't make any distinction between natural and synthetic mescaline, for instance, and would certainly prefer either over whatever research chem it's cool to commit suicide with these days), but you don't say why you prefer natural drugs?



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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582076 - 03/18/02 09:18 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Oops...just read you're other post. Forget I said anything.


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Offlineiangato
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582119 - 03/18/02 10:43 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

for me, all natural is the only route. i don't trust humans. i trust my creator though. all these synthetic drugs are not 100% safe either. there are drugs that were on the market that have now been taken off due to the fact that they are killing people or fuckin with them. i like my food all natural and my drugs all natural. there are all sorts of chemicals in our foods and products that we, humans, have tried to make nature perfect in the eyes of humans. genetically engineering foods and such is very wrong in my honest opinion. look to the skies for the answers. adios. peace.


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a blurry dot dances among the shadows
bends the light
and fizzles into my pink and glowing mind

-ian gato


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: iangato]
    #582133 - 03/18/02 11:01 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

genetically engineering foods and such is very wrong in my honest opinion

It may be an honest opinion, but not a very honest stance. Almost all of the foods that we eat today have been genetically engineered. Not as in a lab, but as in human interference. "Natural " apples tend to be small and bitter, but through hundreds of years of selective breeding and optimized agricultural techniques, are plump, sweet and quite cheap.

The same can be said for corn, wheat, dairy, poultry, etc.

Cooking and refrigeration are far from natural. Would love to see what you bring home form the grocery store. I would bet a large sum that your idealized stance is totally inconsistenct with your reality.

Do you smoke mj? Smoking is an incredibly unnatural form of ingestion.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: Swami]
    #582158 - 03/18/02 11:21 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

>Almost all of the foods that we eat today have been genetically engineered. Not as in a lab, but as in human interference. "Natural " apples tend to be small and bitter, but through hundreds of years of selective breeding and optimized agricultural techniques, are plump, sweet and quite cheap.

The same can be said for corn, wheat, dairy, poultry, etc


Not to mention the humble spud, which would be quite poisonous (think black nightshade) were it not for our interference...

The trick is to be able to domesticate and modify useful plants while conserving the wild populations, something we've never been particularly good at and which GM may make downright impossible...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: Swami]
    #582292 - 03/18/02 01:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Big difference in breeding with variations of the same species and genetic engineering which is taking a gene from a coldwater fish and injecting it into a tomato so it grows in the cold. Fuck knows what effect that will have when it gets into your body.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: Xlea321]
    #582490 - 03/18/02 05:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you there, but the point remains that human interference, whether, through cloning, cross breeding, fertilizing, domesticating or genetic engineering, is still meddling with the way that things were "created". And in the past, we have made some significant improvements with our meddling.

So are people disagreeing with the methodology or the principle?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineCynicalMagician
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582745 - 03/18/02 10:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I can't help but think it's ironic when I talk to a friend of mine who says "I wont do acid, it's too synthetic and fake" and then goes and bites into a cheeseburger. Tsk tsk. I think 'it's too synthetic' is a poor reason to not do synthetic drugs, unless you're actually maintaining a whole healthy lifestyle. Which isn't to force people to do synthetics, but it's still a stupid line of reasoning.


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"Order some golf shoes," I whispered. "Otherwise, we'll never get out of this place alive. You notice these lizards don't have any trouble moving around in this muck - that's because they have ~claws~ on their feet."


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: CynicalMagician]
    #582767 - 03/18/02 11:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

But there is something to be said about the effects of a natural drug like shrooms versus a synthetic one like acid. Maybe its just because I know where they come from, but acid does feel synthetic. Shrooms have earthy visuals and color tones whereas acid feels electric and just generally not-from-nature. But it could just be a coincidence that one is from nature and the other isn't (after all, LSA is from nature and its effects are similar to LSD).


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582929 - 03/19/02 02:28 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So how do you think psilocybin made in the lab would feel?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibletak
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: Xlea321]
    #582946 - 03/19/02 02:53 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think drugs are drugs. Everything comes from somewhere on earth, wich is nature, and now that we have hte technology to extract, and synthesize them or whatever its cool. BUT WAIT SAYS I =[ Mixing chemicals is natural, but I dont wanna take a bottle of advil to get high, those are chemicals, so is clorox bleach. There are alot of chemical mixes to make shit, drugs one of them, and maybe if they didnt come that way, mixing them together isnt the way? Some drugs can be overwhelming, or bad for you, etc etc. And maybe not put here to do so... Butthen again natural compounds that come this way are just chemicals or whatever that happen to grow inside stuff. Maybe natural xxx is better thansynth yyy, byt synth aaa is waaaaayyy better than natural bbb. It depends. I think natural gives off a better mindstate too, i associate natural with earth, shamanic, and a little more credit where its deserved. And chemicals with 'getting fucked up' so mindsets can be diffrent too :]


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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Offlinerum
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Re: Natural vs. synthetic drugs [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #582965 - 03/19/02 03:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

every drug is a drug;
every drug works differently for each person, there are similar trends; but regardless of its creation (natural, synthetic, etc) it still exists to be used (or not) depending on you, the person.

i mean, it falls under the similar arguement that drug-aided/induced/expanded etc is not "real" or geniune because it is not solely "human" derived; it is exists, and regardless or not, it is creation/progression/beauty and thus is niether good nor bad but simply existing.

so why are you condeming any "synthetic" drug, it exists: use it if you want to, use it if you dont.

As for difference, there is most likely a difference as almost every single drug user mentions some difference: but then, like Oswald tested, human preconcievment alters the trip...

Oswald (thats not his name, but Kesey's LSD producer, one of the main guys, i forgot his name but i am sort of right) used the same batch of lsd on different color blotter paper-red, blue, etc and got reports back that red induced energetic/fiery/violent where yellow might be more mellow. So you have to avoid that interference,

but then if you trace back down into shamanisn and tribal ritual use, they understand there are dieties or entities or whatever lurking behind the persistent dimensia of our understanding... there is something in there, are they also in synthetic drugs?

I dunno, im just sort of rambling, I guess you'd need heavy conditioned tests to figure out where the differences crystalize and boundries bewteen the two become distinguishable (espicially for entities and that sort of thing), which you could do.... (if you had money + group of pyschonauts...)
----

added some more:

1) Genetic engineering is such a radical shift in manipulation of nature for espically one reason: the theory goes one gene produces one protien. Or something similar, except, DNA encoded into one gene is (in higher eukaryotes--non bacteria basically, so plants, animals etc) copied and then made into a protein. But between the production of the protein, the DNA-code goes through processing where parts of it are spliced out and then the remaining DNA code is spliced together and fired off to make proteins. There is so much "extra" stuff in DNA. Do you see the problem? One gene of DNA can give rise to an almost infinate amount of proteins, not simply the proteins that are produced from the Genetically implanted gene. This is very hazardous and has, for the most part, been ignored by the sci community/poltical body (but they are all sell outs anyways....)

2. you should probably start a new forum to get this back on track and label it "What differtiates between a synthetic trip and a natural one?" or something like that and have people list the noticable differences....


Edited by rum (03/19/02 03:37 AM)


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