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Offlinecb9fl
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Natural vs. Unnatural
    #4011214 - 04/04/05 02:34 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

How can anything man does be considered unnatural? Man came from the earth and utilizes materials provided him by the earth. He is forced to work within the confines of the physics of this world.

Suppose a man creates a genetically modified plant. Is that plant not the product of man? Man is a product of this planet and thus a "natural" being. If man is a natural being how can any of his creations be unnatural?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4011229 - 04/04/05 02:41 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Usually when someone is talking about something being "natural" there talking about something that is found in nature.


Take crystal meth.

It is an "unnatural" chemical. It can not be found in nature. Man has to "make" it.

Or the atomic bomb.

Not a natural occurrence......man made


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4011247 - 04/04/05 02:47 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Most refer to shrooms being 'natural' and say, acid being 'man-made' in a sense that it does not come directly from the earth, it goes through a lab before it gets to your hand.

Think about it, boomers are the most natural drugs, come directly off the ground, you pick them, dont even need to smoke them, but just put them directly in your mouth. When you grow yourself, you're simply recreating their enviroment.

LSD on the other hand, is synthesized, ie, combined from several products to create new, to produce by chemical synthesis.

The term unnatural itself means that the product has been used in something new, or modified, whereas natural refers something that came by itself, without any alteration.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4011299 - 04/04/05 03:05 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

mckenna said in the archaic revival that even highways are natural...of course, he was interested in restoring a harmony of humans/earth.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: Vvellum]
    #4011346 - 04/04/05 03:21 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I always thought the same about the term ORGANIC as if what else could it really be if it is of this earth? while LSD isnt directly found in nature, it would still be composed of all organic material.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4011353 - 04/04/05 03:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

its all just energy/emptyspace anyways...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4011454 - 04/04/05 03:55 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Anything which conforms to our laws of physics is natural. Anything else is supernatural.


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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4011536 - 04/04/05 04:20 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
He is forced to work within the confines of the physics of this world.




Correction.... 
"He forces himself   to work within the confines of the physics of the world he has grown conditioned to believe...."


:sun:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: niteowl]
    #4011722 - 04/04/05 07:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

> It is an "unnatural" chemical. It can not be found in nature. Man has to "make" it.

But through the transitive property, anything man-made is natural. Nature made man, man made atomic bombs, therefore nature made atomic bombs. (If a=b, and b=c, then a=c).


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: Seuss]
    #4011727 - 04/04/05 07:03 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yeas, nothin is artificial becuase everything is dervied from natural sources.


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4011798 - 04/04/05 08:14 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
Man is a product of this planet and thus a "natural" being. If man is a natural being how can any of his creations be unnatural?




by definition. man-made = unnatural. its nothing more than semantics really.

at the end of the day, if you eat a 'natural' drug or a 'unnatural' drug, you're still eating a chemical of some form. ultimately those individual chemicals are no more natural or unatural than eachother, regardless of their source. they're all made up of the same atoms.

take mescaline for example. you get mescaline in cacti, and you get synthed mescaline. the synthed mescaline would be considered unnatural but chemically its no different to the 'natural' mescaline.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: alsey]
    #4011876 - 04/04/05 09:24 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

just see whats gonna happen as we do 'all this again', just this time on the Internet, coping this world in Virtual Reality..

One need not jump of the fence, and one are not pushed down, the fence will be gone.. :P

"..even natural, is unnaturally natural.."
-Unknown :P


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: niteowl]
    #4011976 - 04/04/05 10:25 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Usually when someone is talking about something being "natural" there talking about something that is found in nature.

Take crystal meth.

It is an "unnatural" chemical. It can not be found in nature. Man has to "make" it.




Yes but the point of the thread is that just because we humans "make" something doesn't mean it is "unnatural", because we humans are ourselves natural.

Is a beaver dam unnatural? What about a termite mound? Is psilocybin "unnatural"? It doesn't exist "in nature" unless made by certain fungi. These things do not exist without the organisms which produce them...but we do not consider them to be "unnatural" in any way.

Five billion years ago Life itself was not "natural" by this line of reasoning, because it did not exist on the Earth. It's all a matter of timing: some things which "did not exist" at one point in time are perfectly "natural" at a later point in time.

What I think cb9fl was getting at is that because we ourselves are a "natural" product of this universe, anything we "create" is also a natural product of this universe.

To be "unnatural" would be to exist outside the confines of this universe.


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Edited by trendal (04/04/05 12:35 PM)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: trendal]
    #4011979 - 04/04/05 10:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

*points to nose*  :thumbup:


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: trendal]
    #4012176 - 04/04/05 12:01 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

That was exactly my point. A man builds a house. Now is that natural or unnatural? An ant build an anthill. Is that natural or unnatural? If they aren't the same what makes them different?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4012249 - 04/04/05 12:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

natural

- we just have more advanced mental filters and dexterity to put raw materials through.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: niteowl]
    #4236251 - 05/30/05 12:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

d-methamphetamine IS found naturally.

you know not what you are saying!


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4236274 - 05/30/05 12:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Unnatural is a natural thing..


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Offlinedante
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: Gomp]
    #4236345 - 05/30/05 01:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with Gump. In the end, to be unnatural is natural in itself.

It really depends on who you ask, we all have different perspectives and defintions of natural.

I personally see all things as naturally, man-made or not. However, I personally enjoy the natural scenic earth, compared to the natural man-made earth, i.e buildings and such.

Anyone else dislike it when people say they would never take LSD but would take mushrooms because one is synthetic, the other "natural"?


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The clouds above us join & separate,
The breeze in the courtyard leaves & returns.
Like is like that, so why not relax?
Who can stop us from celebrating?

-Lu Yu


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Natural vs. Unnatural [Re: cb9fl]
    #4236380 - 05/30/05 01:13 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It is indeed an arbitrary distinction. Man is like the ant, working to build structures to help his survival and working to create elements that will help him in the future, but man is a completely natural animal, and it follows that all his creations are also completely natural.

Anything that exists within the universe is natural in my opinion. How can something existing in a natural universe be "unnatural" other than purely as an arbitrary distinction of semantics?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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