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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves.
    #11005226 -

Exercise, good diet, loving social environment -- these things (which I will collectively group under the label of "being healthy") prevent depression. Conversely, the lack of these things encourages depression. Therefore, depression is more likely if you're unhealthy. Unhealthy individuals are a drain on the larger society. Depression often leads to suicide. Suicide removes individuals from society.

So: depression may in fact be good for the larger gene pool -- a thoroughly healthy adaptation of our species.

Thoughts?


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11005249 -

If unhealthy lifestyles lead to depression then why are there so many fat people around?


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If it's good for fungus, it's good for us...

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11005272 -

yes it definitely serves that purpose however it also serves as a motivator to be socially active and increase the individuals chance of reproduction.

Then there are those that are socially active healthy etc yet are depressed for different existential reasons.

This being a philosophy/logic forum I'm quite sure some of you understand what I mean.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #11005280 -

Newfound_wonder said:
If unhealthy lifestyles lead to depression then why are there so many fat people around?


evolutionary adaptations are (to my knowledge) never perfect.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: para_bellum]
    #11005306 -

We've come to an age in our species where natural selection doesn't play as large of a role in our evolution IMO.  There are alot of great minds I could point to who suffered from some form of depression or psychosis and what they contribute to society is just as valuable as what a "healthy" person with healthy lifestyle choices contributes.  Functionally though if genetics increased the chance of suicide in certain individuals then yes it is a form of natural selection, objectively.  Natural selection isn't some entity that does what it wants, it's simply a word.


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: para_bellum]
    #11005323 -

I take issue with your claim that depression serves as a motivator to stay healthy, because if you've ever been depressed then I'm sure you'll agree that depression can be almost perfectly defined as the LACK of any motivation. Therefore, not a motivator.

And I know what you're saying about existentially-based depression, but I'm not so sure that it can occur in people who are 100% socially/physically/psychologically healthy. If you're feeling good and turn your mind to existential philosophy, I think it's far, far more likely (and perhaps even a guarantee) that, far from getting depressed about it, you'll simply find it a fun and fascinating line of inquiry. I base this on sort of a "gut instinct" that depression does not occur in people who don't have problems in one of the aforementioned 3 categories (social, physical, psychological).


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Smitington] * 1
    #11005338 -

Smitington said:
We've come to an age in our species where natural selection doesn't play as large of a role in our evolution IMO.


Impossible. This would imply that our species is no longer changing, which is patently false -- as can be concluded simply by looking around. It's just that our selective pressures are now operating on a much larger scale, and they differ wildly from the easy-to-conceive selection pressures that we already understand. (For example: longer neck = eat higher leaves = natural advantage = giraffes. The human environment is now far more complex than that.)


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

Edited by laserpig (09/05/09 05:23 PM)

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11005394 -

laserpig said:
Impossible. This would imply that our species is no longer changing, which is patently false -- as can be concluded simply by looking around. It's just that our selective pressures are now operating on a much larger scale, and they differ wildly from the easy-to-conceive selection pressures that we already understand. (For example: longer neck = eat higher leaves = natural advantage = giraffes. The human environment is now far more complex than that.)


ok you are right, I guess that is what I meant to say, that alot of simple things that govern evolution for animals and early humans no longer apply to us, and your idea about depression and suicide is a good example of modern day human natural selection, though I wouldn't say that depression is souly based on the healthy life style choices you mentioned. 

Suicide has a number of functions in our society, for instance like said it prevents an individual from passing on their genetics, but it also makes us look at why this person commited suicide, and we learn to prevent future suicide attempts based on what we have learned, so in a way suicide can help us elimite the things in our society which lead to suicide because not all causes of suicide are purely rooted in individual faults.


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Smitington]
    #11005445 -

Meh, im not so sure you should attribute depression as direct or notable feature of something as fundamental as evolution/naturalselection... seems to be stretching those concepts into something pretty flaky. Seems like depression is an after effect mostly, begotten from luxury - just another random aspect of the "hyper conscious" monkey that is man (and even more so modern man).

You could label it as such, but I find it unnecessary, look more into the causes of depression and I think we'll find that it is far more than what could be called a melancholly animal. Nature doesnt foster depression when ones plight is rough, only when the gettings good - and things are already quite detached from these interpretations of the ideal of an animal being in this very human realm. But it would be interesting to see studies of other primates and what happens with their perceived "depressed" members - but what is a proper definiton of depression anyway!? Are we mixing it up too much with a more nihillistic self flaying behavior, even to suicide? Or a mental state resulting from an individual existing in the fray compared to its kind - or a state of mind resulting from some basic needs not being met... don't humans take it much further than any other animal which lacks the "fucked up" ego which can talk to itself.

:shrug:

laserpig said:
So: depression may in fact be good for the larger gene pool -- a thoroughly healthy adaptation of our species.


Yeah... maybe, but lets be honest, the human mess is already far out, and besides some of the depressed ones (depending... see how hard it is to define!) are maybe more healthy in a certain honest sense... just depends on what we are saying. Lets not forget the cheeky retards that might not be depressed aren't even that great anyway. Many are trying to get their shitty genes passed on because its just what you do, throwing in our ideals of what is good for the species here is kinda funny because its already so fucked up, no? Shits just moving along I guess. But I can I agree with some of your overall notion....


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Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (09/05/09 06:15 PM)

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: andrewss]
    #11005506 -

andrewss said:
Meh, im not so sure you should attribute depression as direct or notable feature of something as fundamental as evolution/naturalselection... seems to be stretching those concepts into something pretty flaky. Seems like depression is an after effect mostly, begotten from luxury - just another random aspect of the "hyper conscious" monkey that is man (and even more so modern man).

You could label it as such, but I find it unnecessary, look more into the causes of depression and I think we'll find that it is far more than what could be called a melancholly animal. Nature doesnt foster depression when ones plight is rough, only when the gettings good - and things are already quite detached from these interpretations of the ideal of an animal being in this very human realm. But it would be interesting to see studies of other primates and what happens with their perceived "depressed" members - but what is a proper definiton of depression anyway!? Are we mixing it up too much with a more nihillistic self flaying behavior, even to suicide? Or a mental state resulting from an individual existing in the fray compared to its kind - or a state of mind resulting from some basic needs not being met... don't humans take it much further than any other animal which lacks the "fucked up" ego which can talk to itself.

:shrug:



Very good points. 

Forget about the causes of suicide for a minute, and think, natural selection is all about an individuals effectiveness at spreading it's genetics, therefore at this level suicide does inevitably play a role in natural selection, but like you said, the causes behind suicide are very complicated.


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Smitington]
    #11005522 -

Smitington said:
andrewss said:
Meh, im not so sure you should attribute depression as direct or notable feature of something as fundamental as evolution/naturalselection... seems to be stretching those concepts into something pretty flaky. Seems like depression is an after effect mostly, begotten from luxury - just another random aspect of the "hyper conscious" monkey that is man (and even more so modern man).

You could label it as such, but I find it unnecessary, look more into the causes of depression and I think we'll find that it is far more than what could be called a melancholly animal. Nature doesnt foster depression when ones plight is rough, only when the gettings good - and things are already quite detached from these interpretations of the ideal of an animal being in this very human realm. But it would be interesting to see studies of other primates and what happens with their perceived "depressed" members - but what is a proper definiton of depression anyway!? Are we mixing it up too much with a more nihillistic self flaying behavior, even to suicide? Or a mental state resulting from an individual existing in the fray compared to its kind - or a state of mind resulting from some basic needs not being met... don't humans take it much further than any other animal which lacks the "fucked up" ego which can talk to itself.

:shrug:



Very good points. 

Forget about the causes of suicide for a minute, and think, natural selection is all about an individuals effectiveness at spreading it's genetics, therefore at this level suicide does inevitably play a role in natural selection, but like you said, the causes behind suicide are very complicated.


The OP's speculation isn't that far out at all, I just wonder a lot about us humans commenting on these things and how we like to attribute a lot of end goals and means to everything around us when it reality it seems like so much is random and nonideal - how much is this randomness harnessed to an ideal... dunno


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11005705 -

laserpig said:
Exercise, good diet, loving social environment -- these things (which I will collectively group under the label of "being healthy") prevent depression.


I don't think he made it up that these things are related to natural selection and suicide. I wouldn't be suprised at all if studies have found these very correlations.  People that do not have these things are probably at a higher risk for suicide than those that do, but I think suicide relates to a very small percentage of this social groups ineffectiveness at propogation, and it's probably best not to bring suicide into the picture because of its large span of reasons.  Instead lets talk about how good exercise, diet, and a loving social environment influences an individuals ability to propogate.


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11009625 -

laserpig said:
Exercise, good diet, loving social environment -- these things (which I will collectively group under the label of "being healthy") prevent depression.


No, not necessarily.


laserpig said:
Conversely, the lack of these things encourages depression. Therefore, depression is more likely if you're unhealthy.


True. :thumbup:


laserpig said:
Unhealthy individuals are a drain on the larger society.


No, not necessarily.


laserpig said:
Depression often leads to suicide.


:lol:, how often do you think?


laserpig said:
So: depression may in fact be good for the larger gene pool -- a thoroughly healthy adaptation of our species.


Not at all; any individual could succumb to depression, regardless of whatever genetic predispositions they may or may not have.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11011304 -

I have felt the edge of a depression front moving in many times in my life, and I've come to realize for myself atleast that this is simply how my body communicates that I need change in my daily habits and lifestyle.

Ask yourself, if your daily habits were negatively affecting your life and physical well-being, how do you think your body would communicate that?

These gypsies I met once sang me a song, and the moral was that you should listen to your body. :thumbup:


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Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: Bernackums]
    #11012831 -

Well said.

I'm not gonna lie: this thread was made on a whim because I enjoyed the playful reasoning of it. Realistically, I think the "purpose" of depression is probably a lot closer to the idea presented here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11012979 -

Thanks for that. 'depressive rumination' = 'self-inquiry'. :lol:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11013122 -

what about the possibility that when larger numbers of people are becoming depressed it is a sign that the cohesion of the group is wavering...and that the ways in which we interact socialy must undergo change in order to avoid the entire species to sink into depression and deginerate.

Edited by curious mouse (09/07/09 09:40 AM)

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: curious mouse]
    #11013274 -

Why do you see it as a social thing, when depression occurs on a personal level?
I think that the OP is onto something though, only that I don't agree that depression necessarily leads to suicide. I think that there's more depressed people that choose to live (because they're too afraid to take their lives, or feel guilty, or feel that they owe their lives and presence to their family and friends - this way of thinking in itself can generate lots of depressive thoughts and attitudes) than depressed people who decide to end their lives. Depression often leads to a passive role which wouldn't leave much room to taking action towards ending one's life. Of course, I am only talking in general terms.

I do agree that depression is a sort of natural selection, but not one that has to result in immediate extinction; in fact most of "natural selection" has happened over time, and not right away, so I don't see any reason why it should be any different in the case of depression.
As a part of people will probably evolve to learn how to handle themselves and get a hold of their self-destructive emotions, others will evolve to mental chaos and self-destruction, choosing to be depressed. I think that what plays a major role in choosing depression is the thought that this will somehow protect one from being hurt, lied, stolen from and taken advantage of. One might choose to feel depressed because one might think that this is what will draw the attention and affection of other people.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11013546 -

Thats one way to look at it, but you can also be the most sucessful business man at the peak of health with a partner & children you love very much, but still despressed as fuck, still feeling depely that there is something missing, something more...

Depression makes us look deeper into what we consider true
its makes us question what the point of existence is...

Depression can also create an incredibly beautiful humility in the ego which otherwise would not come, as we'd be quite happy to be perpetually reinforcing our delusions...

:peace:


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Re: Maybe depression is just an evolutionary adaptation so the weak will off themselves. [Re: laserpig]
    #11013585 -

Quote:
And I know what you're saying about existentially-based depression, but I'm not so sure that it can occur in people who are 100% socially/physically/psychologically healthy.


Does a human being exist that is 100% healthy in all of these manners?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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