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All you need to know about The Paranormal
    #10835779 -

If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means. Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10835888 -

But why does a witch weigh the same as a duck?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10836080 -

Strangely enough, I agree. Too bad many people overstep that, assuming that what can be verified for one using standard tools of objectivity, should be verified for all :shrug:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10836403 -

Perhaps we don't possess a device capable of such detection.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that our technology is limited along with our understandings of the universe?

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10836536 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


What are these "normal means" you speak of. Normal according to whose standard and what time.

OrgoneConclusion said:
Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


I don't disagree. Although if technology has shown us anything, it has shown how sometimes fantasy and delusion can come true.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10836627 -

zen buddy said:
Perhaps we don't possess a device capable of such detection.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that our technology is limited along with our understandings of the universe?




No it isn't difficult to imagine this, thought I don't understand the relevance.



The whole point is that if it has any effect on the physical world (like everything else that we know of), it will be detectable in some manner by the very means in which it effects the physical world.


The point seems to be that their is really no excuse to allude to mysteriousness or whatever other manner of ignorance folks try to appeal to when excusing the failure to detect phenomena.


If it exists and is capable of becoming known to a person through casual means, then it should certainly be able to be detected.  I've heard folks make claims to beleive in rather easily tested phenomena, and it seems as if their is no excuse for the failure to detect such, if one looks.

The corrolary that such things' effects should be able to be shown undetectable by the same means in many cases is even more practically relevant. 


Kickle said:
Strangely enough, I agree. Too bad many people overstep that, assuming that what can be verified for one using standard tools of objectivity, should be verified for all :shrug:



What do you mean?  An assumption that folks should come to the same conclusion?  Why shouldn't they?  If you have certain facts, I fail to see how inconsistant conclusions can coexist without error.


Perhaps your neglecting that an answer should specify the percision or confidence of the result as well?  So when a presumption is made, such should be noted and the confidence in the answer adjusted accordingly.  If the presumption is unsupported, you will quickly come to an answer that is practically useless for its breadth, but certainly not inaccurate because of it.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: johnm214]
    #10836972 -

Quote:
What do you mean?  An assumption that folks should come to the same conclusion?  Why shouldn't they?  If you have certain facts, I fail to see how inconsistant conclusions can coexist without error.


You're right, I should have specified.

Repeatability is what I'm referring to. What happens for me, and what I can confirm for myself using objective standards, or at least objective to my satisfaction of separating fact from fiction, does not necessitate repeatability. The events that have occurred in my life were not controlled by me, and therefore I should have no reason to believe I can repeat them. However, they have been verified for me in an objective sense, and I would be unable to decipher fantasy from reality without that guide.

So different conclusions result from different standards. Do you trust me, or do you refuse to trust me until I can repeat these highly individual events for you?

C'est la vie.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10837015 -

Should we trust the judgment of the 10,000 witnesses of 'The Phoenix Lights' who concluded that military flares were an alien mothership?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.

Should we trust the thousands of witnesses that believe that Criss Angel is performing real magick when he levitates, walks on water, disappears or reads minds?

A simple Yes or No will suffice.


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10837074 -

I'm unfamiliar with the first case, so I can't give you a yes or a no.

To the second, no.
Even though it is repeatable :lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10838315 -

Should we trust the judgment of a few shroomerites who can so easily deny such an obvious fact?

zen buddy said:
Perhaps we don't possess a device capable of such detection.

Is it really that difficult to imagine that our technology is limited along with our understandings of the universe?


... just in case you missed it ...

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10838831 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means. Conversely, if a given phenomenon has no impact on the physical world and can't be detected, then it is indistinguishable from fantasy or delusion.


What about electromagnetic phenomena before we had the instruments to detect them? UV light still gave people sun burns didn't it? Radioactive materials still had subtle adverse effects on people but of course back then they probably would of had some "rational" explanation for these things which were far from the truth which was a little more complex than they could understand at the time. If someone happened to be sensitive to EM radiation back then would he be delusional? I'd love to believe that we're not being effected by things we can't perceive or detect with any instruments we have at the moment because the possibilities haunt me when I start thinking too much but I have trouble sticking my head in the sand like that.


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Mother goose said to the swan "Is that PCP your cooking?" and the swan replied "Yes, yes it is.

Edited by jonnyjonjonjon (08/11/09 11:05 AM)

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10839624 -

The effects of unproved phenomenas in people's mind have enough affect onto the physical surroundings (because of the acting humans) to even prove that those effects affect the environment :grin:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: Kickle]
    #10841753 -

Kickle said:
Quote:
What do you mean?  An assumption that folks should come to the same conclusion?  Why shouldn't they?  If you have certain facts, I fail to see how inconsistant conclusions can coexist without error.


You're right, I should have specified.

Repeatability is what I'm referring to. What happens for me, and what I can confirm for myself using objective standards, or at least objective to my satisfaction of separating fact from fiction, does not necessitate repeatability.

C'est la vie.




Sure, but that's kind of a side issue.


Obviously detecting no difference in an experimental group vs control doesn't prove their is no difference- we can't prove something is absent to any degree of confidence meerly by observing we have no evidence for it.  I think everyone would agree with you there.

Quote:
The events that have occurred in my life were not controlled by me, and therefore I should have no reason to believe I can repeat them. However, they have been verified for me in an objective sense, and I would be unable to decipher fantasy from reality without that guide.

So different conclusions result from different standards. Do you trust me, or do you refuse to trust me until I can repeat these highly individual events for you?


I do trust you, but I don't trust your conclusions.


In other words, if you testify to some observation I would believe you to a degree appropriate for an internet friend, but i wouldn't neccesarily come to the same conclusions you did, nor would I agree that failing to adopt your conclusions absent evidence is an issue of trust.


I'm not sure which you were referring to- conclusions or facts, but I would certainly trust the later.





I think the original point you made about different interpretations may deserve more percision in the wording, really.  Your conclusion that some particular paranormal event was observed would not be inconsistant with my conclusion that their is no modicum of evidence for such when reviewing data from some experiment someone did to try and find support for your claim. 


I think your referring more to the conclusions people have that aren't actually directly supported by the evidence, but go further and aren't as scientific as they are conjecture.  Things like "you didn't see a paranormal event" certainly are not supported by anything sufficient to overcome your observations, no matter how reasonable the conclusion may be, and as such shouldn't be treated as a confident logically/scientifically backed claim.


I think people often fail to differentiate between conjecture in scientific or logical papers/thoughts and actual objective findings.  All I'm saying is that while the former may indeed be plausibly different amongst different folks, the later should not be, and that there is no reason to believe there is room for inconsistant results from the analysis of the evidence of an event.


Do you see what I'm getting at?  Its the difference between saying "there are no ghosts" and "there is no evidence of ghosts found in this study"?


Often I hear people berate science or logic by complaining of conclusions that aren't directly demonstrated by the experiment/study yet included as possible interpretations, and turn out to be wrong, and use that inevitable failing to cast doubt upon the conclusions that are well supported (no ghosts were detected, the actual data collected and well supported analysis).  Just saying that conjecture can be different, but conjecture isn't regarded, or shouldn't be, as some logical or scientific conclusion worthy of confidence.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10842886 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Should we trust the thousands of witnesses that believe that Criss Angel is performing real magick when he levitates, walks on water, disappears or reads minds?


You seem to have "witnesses" confused with "payed actors" and "people who want to be on T.V"


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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: yeah]
    #10842920 -

I know some fundamentalist Christians who think the devil helps him do paranormal things.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10844021 -

You cannot prove all that, so it's false.


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Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10847247 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Should we trust the thousands of witnesses that believe that Criss Angel is performing real magick when he levitates, walks on water, disappears or reads minds?


Magick with a 'k' is a mystical practice and philosophical system. Criss Angel is an illusionist. LOL @ Christians.

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10851607 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a paranormal phenomenon has any discernible effect on the physical world, then it can be measured and tested by normal means.


Perhaps it has an effect on the psychological world, which can't be measured by any tools.

I've seen many christians absolutely convinced that prayer works.  I'm not a christian so I see no evidence of this, but who am I to say that their system is bunk?  I have my own sense of psychic intuition, but nobody can see it but me.  It's important to separate the physical world from the psychic world.  Obviously I can't meditate hard enough to make a building fall down, and a christain can't pray hard enough to make someone grow a new leg after an amputation.
RR


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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10851761 -

Based on this criteria no evidence is as good some evidence. Lets use this method to run the physical world and see where it gets  us.:tongue:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: All you need to know about The Paranormal [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10852609 -

RogerRabbit said:
Perhaps it has an effect on the psychological world, which can't be measured by any tools.


Freud was very skilled at measuring the psychological world. :shrug:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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