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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Evolving]
    #1009573 -

Pinky: "Evolving, you'll never get the statistics you are looking for in this forum, because there's almost no one here who has the faintest idea of what free-market Capitalism is."

Evolving: "I stated, 'I am requesting that leftist ideologues post numbers of deaths caused by free market capitalists..."

Okay, guys, if you're going to keep shooting certain examples down because they don't involve a "free market" system, why don't you give some examples of times or places where this existed.

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009591 -

****And if people are satisfying their greed there will always be an imbalance at the top and the bottom. ****

what is your definition of greed?..is making money greedy?

****imbalance at the top and the bottom. ****

there has always been the haves and the have nots...socialism makes them equal.

****Why should we have this desire for limitless wealth?*****

that's what freedom has to offer...desire is nothing without the most minute chance of it actually happening.

****Why should we have this desire for limitless wealth?****

Why shouldn't we have this desire?

****No, I just think there should be a maximum wage. ****

just like socialism....what would make me desire to better myself if there is a limit?...thoughts of U.S.S.R.

****Make it ?1 million a year. Nobody needs more than that.****

how do you know what someone needs? I gurentee my "acceptable" wages differs from my neighbor, friend, enemy and socialist like yourself.

****I wouldnt knowingly cause somebody else to suffer just so I could have more food than I actually needed ****

I never said you would but those that you accuse also don't WANT to see people suffer....when you get into a position of power come talk to me.

****and I think you'll find there are significant amounts of people who are daily trying to transcend these outmoded beliefs and programs. ****

ironically enough on the backs of others


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009634 -

"what is your definition of greed?..is making money greedy? "

Taking more than you need. Especially when you take that which could be used by those who are truly in need.

"there has always been the haves and the have nots...socialism makes them equal."

I'm not a socialist. I dont believe we need equality, just a smaller spectrum of wealth.

"****Why should we have this desire for limitless wealth?*****

that's what freedom has to offer...desire is nothing without the most minute chance of it actually happening"

We dont need limitless wealth, not in a financial sense anyway. The natural resources really arent there for us to continue in this way. I know you believe global warming is rubbish and you probabaly think fossil fuels are endless but they are not. sorry thats the long and short of it.

"****Why should we have this desire for limitless wealth?****

Why shouldn't we have this desire?"

Because it harms the planet and causes pain for many when taken to its extreme as you well know.

"how do you know what someone needs? I gurentee my "acceptable" wages differs from my neighbor, friend, enemy and socialist like yourself."

You are confusing wants and desires with needs. No one needs more than 1 million a year to live on, no one, as you well know.

"ironically enough on the backs of others "

Please explain what you mean, ottherwise that sentence is utter gibberish.


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Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (10/31/02 08:50 AM)

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009726 -

wealth is not a static statistic...there is no limit if the desire is there

Don't talk shite. Everyone has understood since we discovered the earth was round that resources are finite. Do you seriously think the earth can support every country wasting as much energy, food and water as the US does?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Xlea321]
    #1009792 -

***Everyone has understood since we discovered the earth was round that resources are finite. ****

no shit. Maybe if you paid attention instead of sending your puppets around you'd know that i said W-E-A-L-T-H not resources...yet again your credibility drops


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009849 -

****Taking more than you need. Especially when you take that which could be used by those who are truly in need.****

i'm repeating myself (and you've yet to answer it) Who determines what I and Others need? (this applies to your entire post mind you)

***I'm not a socialist. I dont believe we need equality, just a smaller spectrum of wealth.****

why not encourage the have nots to become haves?

****We dont need limitless wealth, not in a financial sense anyway. ****

first of all noone has limitless wealth...even bill gates....why shouldn't we have this wealth? if it's earned honestly and through hard work?

****I know you believe global warming is rubbish***

no i don't. I just think the environmental wackos are using scare tactics to achieve their goal: we all live it huts eating berrys and nuts.

****you probabaly think fossil fuels are endless but they are not. sorry thats the long and short of it.****

you and alex have said this. I want you to tell me WHERE i said this!!!! quite making up arguments when their not there

****Because it harms the planet and causes pain for many when taken to its extreme as you well know****

how if it's earned honestly? If i create something like hmmmmm lets say "Windows" and it benefits the world why shouldn't i get rich?

****You are confusing wants and desires with needs. ****

so you'll be the judge on what people need?

****No one needs more than 1 million a year to live on, no one, as you well know.****

see above

****Please explain what you mean, ottherwise that sentence is utter gibberish.****

libbies, statists, socialist (or pick which one you feel you fit in) are all for making those that are successfull lose individual rights to make those that either choose to be unsuccessful, those that are generally poor, and others feel good about themselfs by penalizing the evil greedy people.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010000 -

In reply to:
libbies, statists, socialist (or pick which one you feel you fit in) are all for making those that are successfull lose individual rights to make those that either choose to be unsuccessful, those that are generally poor, and others feel good about themselfs by penalizing the evil greedy people.


My concerns and beliefs stem from personal experiences I've had with nature and from what I've gathered in books and on t.v.. I consider myself an environmentalist first (to pick a term). I live in a big city (which I was raised in for the most part) so I've been 'conditioned' to accept the present consumer lifestyle. I take trips to the country or local parks often enough to learn a bit about how other species survive (or do not). It's not about penalizing the successful or making the unsuccessful feel good about themselves. It's about working out a sustainable society so we can survive (as a species and as a nation). I am trying to change my own lifestyle to make it more sustainable and harmonious with nature. We have made progress as a nation in cleaning pollution and protecting the environment but we have a long way to go. It's all inextricably tied to our economic and industrial policies and ultimately to our personal lifestyles. I don't see how we can just go on with the present policies and expect everything will work itself out ala laissez-faire capitalism. Technology will be part of the solution I'm sure but I don't think we have our priorities in order as a nation (or as a civilization) to make it work yet. I don't see big capitalists taking sustainability seriously and that worries me.

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: frogsheath]
    #1010034 -

****It's not about penalizing the successful or making the unsuccessful feel good about themselves. It's about working out a sustainable society so we can survive (as a species and as a nation). ****

This is what i'm talking about your "sustainable society" limits the freedom of individuals. When i said environmentalists i meant the "greenpeace", "ELF" and "Siera club" crowd. I am very respectful of our environment. I don't litter (which is one of my many pet-peeves), i fish so i want my water clean, and i like the air clean that i breath. I just don't believe the BS that comes from them crowds...

****I am trying to change my own lifestyle to make it more sustainable and harmonious with nature. ****

that's all fine and dandy but don't try (not saying you in particular) to remove my rights to pursue my "sustainable society" because it doesn't coincide with yours (not saying you in particular).

****We have made progress as a nation in cleaning pollution and protecting the environment but we have a long way to go. ****

Sure we do. These things take time, but the previously mentioned groups are getting in the way.

****It's all inextricably tied to our economic and industrial policies and ultimately to our personal lifestyles. ****

that's true and that's what the EPA is for. They have rules and laws.

****I don't see how we can just go on with the present policies and expect everything will work itself out ala laissez-faire capitalism. ****

what policies are you referring to?

****Technology will be part of the solution I'm sure but I don't think we have our priorities in order as a nation (or as a civilization) to make it work yet. ****

i live in an area where the DNR is everywhere you look...i think our priorities are just fine, give it time

****I don't see big capitalists taking sustainability seriously and that worries me. ****

that's debatable


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010097 -

W-E-A-L-T-H not resources

Mister dumbass, please explain to us how you create wealth without using resources. No-ones managed it yet.

Give us all a good laugh.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010122 -

why not encourage the have nots to become haves?

Why not indeed. Could we ask the boss of Nike to maybe stop paying himself so many millions a year and give the slaves in his sweatshops a decent wage? That would be a great first step to turning have-nots into haves.

Unfortunately the reason the boss of Nike is a "have" is precisely because he is exploting "have-nots". Or do you think there would be a long line of millionaires willing to work in his factories?

Globalisation is "the race to the bottom" - each corporation competing with each other to pay as little as they can, exploit children as slaves in dangerous working conditions and destroy the environment. It's not about turning have-nots into haves, it's about turning haves into even richer haves by making sure the have-nots get even less.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Xlea321]
    #1010202 -

it's called services you asshole....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Xlea321]
    #1010206 -

wahhh...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010210 -

Tough day at work inny?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Xlea321]
    #1010213 -

no pretty typical....i'm beating my employees.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1010298 -

In reply to:
what policies are you referring to?


Energy policy seems mired in a lot of short-term benefit rationale. Why doesn't the government and industry subsidize R&D in more efficient fuels and energy systems?
In reply to:
i fish so i want my water clean, and i like the air clean that i breath. I just don't believe the BS that comes from them crowds...



That's cool. I think sportsmen are some of the biggest protectors of our resources. I havn't dealt with the environmental groups you mentioned but from what I gather they are for a lot of the same ideas I am.

In reply to:
i live in an area where the DNR is everywhere you look...i think our priorities are just fine, give it time


That's really cool --for you. I live in an area where it's getting more visible too. Still, there are ongoing battles between environmentalists and free-market capitalists all over the place. I read recently that The Sierra Club claimed that two important pieces of legislation were stalled in Illinois congress --having been voted on by only one branch of congress then put aside. These bills regarded clean streams by enforcing stricter regulations on development near them. They also said that lobbyists for developers were responsible for the blockage. Anyway that's just an example. We have lots of work to do yet to protect the environment and much of it will be of a socialist rather than a capitalist bent don't you think?

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: frogsheath]
    #1010397 -

****Why doesn't the government and industry subsidize R&D in more efficient fuels and energy systems? ****

is the subsidy mandated or is it voulentary? If it's volentary then i'm all for it. ( i had this conversation with my wife yesturday and said if they made an electric or hybrid car that didn't look stupid and got the same performance as existing cars then i'd buy one..to date the models they have out there are not to mine and the consumers liking)

what makes you think they aren't working on more efficient fuels and energy systems? They've been working on them for years. I'm sensing a theme of impatience from some people. These things take time. An instant fix could be worse without the trial an error that's involved in putting a quality poduct out there...a good example was YUGO. It was and still is a peice of shit, but it was marketed for the fiscally challenged...

there's another reason more companies aren't throwing as much money into these projects....supply and demand

****I gather they are for a lot of the same ideas I am. ****

since i don't know you i'll assume you're correct but for fun look up the E.L.F. (Earth Liberation Front) They've killed people in the name of protecting the environment ie: tree spikes and arson.

****That's really cool --for you. I live in an area where it's getting more visible too. Still, there are ongoing battles between environmentalists and free-market capitalists all over the place****

i think the problem is with the groups that don't let private property owners use their own land because animals like the spotted owl just happen to be there.....that's one of my biggest beefs with these groups.

****I read recently that The Sierra Club claimed that two important pieces of legislation were stalled in Illinois congress --having been voted on by only one branch of congress then put aside. These bills regarded clean streams by enforcing stricter regulations on development near them. They also said that lobbyists for developers were responsible for the blockage. ****

i'm sure there's more to it then you listed but lobby groups are on both sides. To say that you (in general) are for clean water there has to be people that are against clean water. To date i have never met, either libbie, or far right, that has said they want to make our air, water, and land dirty.

****We have lots of work to do yet to protect the environment and much of it will be of a socialist rather than a capitalist bent don't you think? ****

God i hope not. People go to the clean places, companies should key on this and use it in a capitalistic manner. If i own a buttload of land i would like to make money off the beauty of it through hiking, camping, rafting, fishing and city/country encounters...there's a lot to be made off the beauty of ours and other countrys. (however i don't own a buttload of land but if i did this is what i would do)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Evolving]
    #1010587 -

Evolving writes:
"There had been similar economic downturns before the great depression but none had ever been so severe, could this have any thing to do with the establishment of the Fed and it's policies?"

There have been economic downturns SINCE the Great Depression but none of them has been as severe either, even though the Fed has continued to exist and even though government intervention in the economy has INCREASED. If it were true that government intervention and the Fed CAUSED the Great Depression (this is the claim that you and pinky seem to be making) then we should have been having great depressions about once a decade.

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: Evolving]
    #1010647 -

Evolving writes:

"An overly wordy tanget and deviating quite a bit off topic. "
Sorry, but the question of whether the Great Depression (and the attendant suffering) was caused by statists or free marketers is quite germane I think.

"You really like to bore people don't you?"
If thinking in anything other than one-liners and body counts is boring for you, I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do to help (by the way, body counts and one-liners ["hearts and minds" yadda yadda] was how the US lost the Vietnam War). Please forgive me though if I don't turn to you (and people who think like you) for political and economic wisdom. The selections I posted were quite long, granted, but they were written in terms a layman can understand and never made recourse to abstract economic theories or terminology. In other words, Economics 101 level.

"What's you tactic, throw enough bullshit on the wall till people can't see the color of the brick? "

Please identify the specific "bullshit" contained within those posts. Until you do so, you're just talking out of your ass (i.e, "bullshit").

"Can you start a new thread with your cut and pastes?"
Ok, I promise I won't put any more long cut and pastes on your precious body count thread. I reiterate, however, that the whole premise of the thread is misguided.

The state, by definition, is the body that retains a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. If it does not retain the right to decide what legitimate force is, it is no longer a state (or at least cannot behave as one); it becomes simply another player in the private realm.

Any corporation or capitalist enterprise is, of necessity, subsumed within the authority of a state (unless it declares itself to be a sovereign political body, in which case it becomes itself a state). If a corporation or capitalist enterprise begins overtly and directly killing people, the state in which it does operation will sooner or later put an end to it (unless the state itself has commissioned said killing, as was the case in Nazi German for example). The government may do this out of simple human decency, or, more likely, will do it because it does not want its monopoly over the use of force to be usurped. The ability of corporations and capitalist enterprises to literally murder people is therefore self-limiting. The ability of corporations to kill people and ruin lives slowly and covertly is a different matter.

Your thread also makes the patently absurd assumption that all states are somehow responsible for the behavior or all other states and that all capitalists are somehow responsible for the behavior of all other capitalists. Holding Sweden repsonsible for the crimes of Maoist China is purely laughable, just as it is laughable to hold the guy who owns the corner deli responsible for the crimes of Union Carbide. That's like saying that if my second cousin commits a crime, I and the rest of the family are responsible for it and we should all go to prison. A truly medieval twist of logic, that.

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1010682 -

A truly medieval twist of logic, that.

Amen to that.

It's the same kind of remedial knowledge evolving has that produces statements like his "governments wage war not corporations". As tho big business has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons we go to war. That really tickled me.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Evil Capitalists vs. Enlightened Statists [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1010693 -

In reply to:
If it were true that government intervention and the Fed CAUSED the Great Depression (this is the claim that you and pinky seem to be making) then we should have been having great depressions about once a decade.


The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913 by the United States Congress with The Federal Reserve Act. They didn't have long to really gather a lot of data and learn what they were doing before the next depression hit. It's an economic fact there are various cycles in the economy. If you look at history, approximately every 60 years there is a major downturn or "depression." Up until the founding of the Fed, these depressions were usually over in a couple of years. It can be argued that the Feds policies made the 20's the "roaring 20's" and also increased the severity and duration of the depression which followed and became known as "The Great Depression." I do not claim that the Fed created that depression, but they may very well have turned it into "The Great Depression."

Some economist would argue that we may be in a depressionary period now (albiet a mild one so far). The stock market bubble is believed to be a result of easy money policies under Alan Greenspan. The Fed started infusing massive amounts of money into the economy in preparation for Y2K and has continued to do so in an effort to keep "priming the pump" to promote economic activity and defy economic cycles. It can be argued that such attempted management of the economy, though delaying economic downturns, has the price of increasing their severity once they hit.

In the very least, we can see how Mr. Greenspan's policies may have led to the very "irrational exuberance" in the stock market which he spoke out against. The increased money in circulation "needed" to find a home and a great deal of it went to bidding up stock prices and the creation of a speculative bubble. That and the changes in tax laws which made it advantageous for corporations to offer stock options in lieu of larger salaries to executives created an environment ripe for Enron type scandals and the manipulation of stock prices.

It should be noted that the Fed is a product of government intervention and the tax law changes were an attempt by the government to modify corporate behavior. The unintended consequences of government action can very often be worse than the situations which they are trying to ameliorate.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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