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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Are Americans more evil?
    #2179059 - 12/15/03 10:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Having the largest percent of population in prison in history can mean only 1 of 2 things no matter your political standing. You choose:

1. Americans today are inherently more evil.

2. Our laws are unreasonably oppressive and unjust.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179067 - 12/15/03 10:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

3. We don't shoot suspected criminals in tthe street.

4. we're just the least civilized of the civilized world.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2179080 - 12/15/03 11:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

3. We don't shoot suspected criminals in tthe street.

No, because there are too many witnesses. Usually the suspects are shot in their bedroom trying to defend themselves when the D.E.A. exercises the Constitutionally illegal "knockless warrant" at 3 AM.


from: http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.htm

John Adams

64 years old
Lebanon, Tennessee
October, 2000 Shot to death during a SWAT drug raid while watching TV. The house didn't match the description on the warrant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xavier Bennett

8 years old
Atlanta, Georgia
November, 1991 Xavier was accidentally shot to death by officers in a pre-dawn drug raid during a gunfight with one of Xavier's relatives.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Delbert Bonnar

57 years old
Belpre, Ohio
October, 1998 Shot 8 times by police in drug raid. They were looking for his son.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Veronica Bowers

35 years old
Charity Bowers


7 months old

In the air over Peru
April, 2001 As part of a long-standing arrangement to stop drug shipments, U.S. government tracking provided the information for the Peruvian Air Force to mistakenly shoot down a Cessna plane carrying missionaries. Killed in the incident were Roni Bowers, a missionary with the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, and her daughter, Charity. As of August, 2003, the United States is considering reinstating the shoot-down program. Perhaps they think by now we've forgotten.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jose Colon

20 years old
Suffolk, New York
April, 2002 Jose was outside the house where he had come to repay a $20 debt, when a drug raid on the house commenced. He was shot in the head by SWAT.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Troy Davis

25 years old
North Richland Hills, Texas
December, 1991 During a no-knock raid to find some marijuana plants he was growing, he was shot to death in his living room. There are disputed accounts regarding whether he had a gun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annie Rae Dixon

84 years old
Tyler, Texas
January, 1993 Bedridden with pneumonia during a drug raid. Officer kicked open her bedroom door and accidentally shot her.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Dorismond

26 years old
New York, New York
March, 2000 Patrick was a security guard who wanted to become a policeman. He was off-duty and unarmed when he went out with friends. Standing on the street looking for a taxi, he was approached by undercover police who asked to buy some marijuana from him. Patrick was offended by the request (he didn't use drugs), and a scuffle ensued. Dorismond was then shot to death by the police.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shirley Dorsey

56 years old
Placerville, California
April, 1991 Rather than being compelled to testify against her 70-year-old boyfriend (Byron Stamate) for cultivating the medicinal cannabis she depended upon to help control her crippling back pain, Shirley Dorsey committed suicide. She saw it as the only way to prevent the forfeiture of their home and property. Despite her suicide, Stamate was sentenced to 9 months prison, and his home, cottage, and $177,000 life savings were seized.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Juan Mendoza Fernandez

60 years old
Dallas, Texas
September, 2000 Police found a variety of drugs when they raided the Fernandez' home. However, Juan apparently believed he was the victim of burglars during the raid, and was shot while trying to protect his 11-year-old granddaughter. He and his wife had been married 36 years and had four children and 13 grandchildren.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curt Ferryman

24 years old
Jacksonville, Florida
August, 2000 Undercover agents were attempting to arrest Ferryman, who was in his car and unarmed. A DEA agent knocked on the car window with his gun to get the suspect's attention, and the gun went off, killing him as he sat in the car.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Willie Heard

46 years old
Osawatomie, Kansas
February, 1999 SWAT conducted a no-knock drug raid, complete with flash-bang grenades. Heard was shot to death in front of his wife and 16-year-old daughter who had cried for help. Fearing home invasion, he was holding an empty rifle. The raid was at the wrong house.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clayton Helriggle

23 years old
Eaton, Ohio
September, 2002 Clayton was shot to death while coming down the stairs during a suprise raid. He was carrying either a gun or a plastic cup, depending on the report. Less than an ounce of marijuana was found.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Esequiel Hernandez

18 years old
Redford, Texas
May, 1997 Hernandez was shot and killed by a Marine sniper in camouflage who was part of a military unit conducting drug interdiction activities near the Mexican border. Esequiel was out herding his family's goats and had taken a break to shoot at some tin cans with his antique rifle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Hirko

21 years old
Pennsylvania
1997 An unarmed man with no prior offenses was shot to death in his house by a squad of masked police. In a no-knock raid, they tossed a smoke grenade in through a window, setting the house on fire. Hirko, suspected of dealing small amounts of marijuana and cocaine, was found face down on his stairway, shot in the back while fleeing the burning building. When the fire was finally put out, officers found some marijuana seeds in an unsinged plastic bag.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lynette Gayle Jackson

29 years old
Riverdale, Georgia
September, 2000 Shot to death in her bed by SWAT team.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer Ron Jones

29 years old
Prentiss, Mississippi
December, 2001 Officer Jones was in the process of serving a drug warrant, based on an informant tip. While trying to enter the rear of a duplex, he was shot by the resident, Corey Maye, who had no prior record. No drugs were found. Maye was charged with capital murder.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Marinez

19 years old
De Valle, Texas
December, 20001 Officers conducted a drug raid on a mobile home in De Valle. Martinez, who was not the target of the raid, was asleep on the couch when the raid commenced. Hearing the front door smashed open, he sat up, and was shot to death in the chest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter McWilliams

50 years old
Laurel Canyon, California
June, 2000
Peter was a world-famous author and an advocate of medical marijuana, not only because he believed in it in principle, but because it was keeping him alive (he had AIDS and non-Hodgkins lymphoma). After California passed a law legalizing medical marijuana, Peter helped finance the efforts of Todd McCormick to cultivate marijuana for distribution to those who needed it for medical reasons. Federal agents got wind of his involvement, and Peter was a target for his advocacy. He was arrested, and in federal court was prevented from mentioning his medical condition or California's law. While he was on bail awaiting sentencing, the prosecutors threatened to take away his mother's house (used for bail) if he failed a drug test, so he stopped using the marijuana which controlled his nausea from the medications and allowed him to keep them down. He was found dead on the bathroom floor, choked to death on his own vomit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ismael Mena

45 years old
Denver, Colorado
September, 1999 Mena was killed when police barged into his house looking for drugs. They had the wrong address.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pedro Oregon Navarro

22 yeqrs old
July, 1998 Following up on a tip from a drug suspect, 6 officers crowded into a hallway outside Navarro's bedroom. When the door opened, one officer shouted that he had a gun. Navarro's gun was never fired, but officers fired 30 rounds, with 12 of them hitting Pedro. No drugs were found.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mario Paz

65 years old
Compton, California
August, 1999 Mario was shot twice in the back in his bedroom during a SWAT raid looking for marijuana. No drugs were found.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charmene Pickering

27 years old
Brooklyn, New York
July, 2001 Charmene was a passenger in a car driven by a drug suspect. State troopers and DEA agents were in the process of arresting the driver when the trooper's gun went off and hit Charmene in the neck, killing her. Both passenger and driver were unarmed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manuel Ramirez

Stockton, California
January, 1993 At 2 am, police smashed down the door and rushed into the home of Manuel Ramirez, a retired golf course groundskeeper. Ramirez awoke, grabbed a pistol and shot and killed officer Arthur Parga before other officers killed him. Police were raiding the house based on a tip that drugs were on the premises, but they found no drugs.
Officer Arthur P. Parga

32 years old
Stockton, California
January, 1993

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deputy Keith Ruiz

36 years old
Travis County, Texas
February, 2001 Ruiz was a husband and father who was a veteran of numerous SWAT raids. In the process of serving a drug warrant, he was trying to break down the door to a mobile home occupied by painter Edwin Delamora, his wife, and two young children. Confused by the raid at night, Delamora yelled to his wife that they were being robbed and shot through the door, killing Ruiz.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Donald P. Scott

61 years old
Malibu, California
October, 1992 Government agencies were interested in the property of this reclusive millionaire. A warrant was issued based on concocted "evidence" of supposed marijuana plantings, and a major raid was conducted with a 32-man assault team. Scott was shot to death in front of his wife. No drugs were found.

A later official report found: "It is the District Attorney's opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott's death warrant."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alberto Sepulveda

11 years old
Modesto, California
September, 2000 Alberto was killed by a shotgun blast to the back while following police orders and lying face down on the floor during a SWAT raid. He was a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary School.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary Shepherd

45 years old
Broadhead, Kentucky
August, 1993 When a Kentucky drug task force came to uproot his marijuana plants in August 1993, pot-grower and Vietnam vet Gary Shepherd told them, "You will have to kill me first," took out his rifle and sat down on his front porch. That evening he was shot dead in front of his infant son. Despite the fact that Shepherd never fired a shot and his family was pleading with authorities for negotiations, state police sharpshooters appeared from the brush without warning and opened fire when he refused to drop his rifle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alberta Spruill

57 years old
Harlem, New York
May, 2003 Police, acting on a tip, forced their way into Spruill's home, setting off flash grenades. She suffered a heart attack and died. It was the wrong address.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ashley Villareal

14 years old
San Antonio, Texas
February, 2003 Ashley went outside at night with a family friend to move their freshly washed car under shelter. DEA agents, interested in her father, were staking out the house, and believing that her father was driving, shot and killed Ashley. The agents did not have a warrant for her father. Read The Murder of Ashley.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Accelyne Williams

75 years old
Boston, Massachusetts
March, 1994 Accelyne was a retired Methodist Minister and substance abuse counselor. After an informant gave police a bad address, a SWAT raid was conducted on the minster's home. The door was battered down, Williams was tackled to the floor and his hands tied behind his back. He died of a heart attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179081 - 12/15/03 11:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There are elements of both positions at play.As far as violent crime I think we are as a people easily angered and willing to act on it.As far as consensual,non-violent "crime" we are a puritanical juggernaut of oppression and fear mongering.
But to answer your question "Are Americans more evil?" I would just say we have some very bad men making policies at this point in history.And as a people we have a real problem with entitlement of privelige.
So this one can't be black and white.
WR:rasta:


--------------------
To old for this place


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179082 - 12/15/03 11:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

have you ever been out of the country before? You really need to get out and see the world. we have the most prisoners but you don't see us shooting them for a difference of opinion. It makes me wonder if kids today even have the slightest clue.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2179104 - 12/15/03 11:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

have you ever been out of the country before? You really need to get out and see the world. we have the most prisoners but you don't see us shooting them for a difference of opinion. It makes me wonder if kids today even have the slightest clue.

As a Vietnam-era vet, I have indeed seen (some of) the world and actually do have a clue.

So the shooting deaths I listed never happened? And is death the ONLY form of oppression?

No wiggling here.

1. How would your tune change if you were taken from your family for 10 years for growing your own shrooms?

2. What would YOU do to protect your family if people kicked your door in, in the middle of the night with guns drawn? Would their assurance that they were the "good guys" relax you even in your state of shock without your having time to verify the facts?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179136 - 12/15/03 11:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How long has it been since you stopped raping little girls? :smirk:

There are alot of reasons why America has a larger percentage of it's population incarcerated at any given time. Most of them arent very good reasons.


What was your point again?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179147 - 12/15/03 11:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

As a Vietnam-era vet, I have indeed seen (some of) the world and actually do have a clue.




makes one wonder...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2179157 - 12/15/03 11:44 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Is sniping the best you can do or do you actually have something of value to say?

I had the balls to voluntarily defend my country and I have the balls to speak out against unjustice. I can see where you might have a problem with that.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179186 - 12/15/03 12:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i don't think you'll find anyone here who's gonna be defending the united states' drug policies... i think what people are trying to say here is that there are alot of countries that are far worse, and few that are much better about it.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: ]
    #2179195 - 12/15/03 12:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There are few, if any, countries "far worse" at imprisoning its population.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
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Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: ]
    #2179197 - 12/15/03 12:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

baby hitler: Most of them arent very good reasons.

------like?


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Anonymous

Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179202 - 12/15/03 12:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

there are a great many nations in the world where a drug offense can bring a death sentence.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: ]
    #2179221 - 12/15/03 12:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Seriously, do you sincerely believe that that fact is any comfort to a college kid given 20 years for selling (happened this year) an ounce of MJ? Would it make you feel better after getting busted for your fungal grow room?

If not, then your point has little substance.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179230 - 12/15/03 12:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

well i'd certainly be glad i wasn't busted in singapore or saudi arabia, but unhappy that i wasn't busted in holland or england.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179236 - 12/15/03 12:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Like mushmaster said, noone on this site is happy with the drug laws. If you're inplying that the US is the only country out there with these types of laws your fooling yourself.

There are many countries out there that treat their prisonors like shit and don't get the privilage of haveing their own cell and a nice color TV to look at. For example a young boy about 14ish (courtesy of the Discovery channel) in russia robbed someone on the streets to get food to eat and he was imprisoned for years without his parents knowledge. If you think that we are the worst then you are again mistaken.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2179243 - 12/15/03 12:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If you think that we are the worst then you are again mistaken.

Apparently you have the pandemic reading comprehension problem. "Largest percent of population in prison" ACTUALLY means "largest percent of population in prison". Hard to grasp, I know. This is fact and not opinion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179244 - 12/15/03 12:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

my answer is that americans are inherantly more evil..and as such our laws are unreasonably oppressive and unjust...there are various reasons why the population has become posessed with evil..which i will be happy to elabourate if asked...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Swami]
    #2179261 - 12/15/03 12:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

does it say in there how many are actually guilty of a crime? Or are they all innocent?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Are Americans more evil? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2179294 - 12/15/03 01:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I would wager that most are guilty of breaking a law. I would also wager that with some 20,000 laws on the books; that most all Americans could be incarcerated if the laws were fully enforced.

However, I believe that about half the prison population poses no danger to the general public and that their incarceration serves no purpose other than that of government control.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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