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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676173 -

zappaisgod said:
What is unobjective about examining the man's history and policies and finding them to be, put politely, lacking in any substance or usefulness.  Not examining them and finding them oh so wonderful strikes me as unobjective.  Don't you agree?


So you basically find liberals such as Franklin, Woolman, Penn, Jefferson, etc, to have no usefulness or substance?

Wow.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: TGRR]
    #9676193 -

Liberalism has no usefulness or function.  What makes those guys liberals?  I don't recall the US being an 18th century welfare state.


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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676210 -

zappaisgod said:
Liberalism has no usefulness or function.  What makes those guys liberals?  I don't recall the US being an 18th century welfare state.


Quote:
Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals


Quote:
"all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."[


Do you really not see the correlation, or are you just being coy?


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676212 -

zappaisgod said:
Liberalism has no usefulness or function.  What makes those guys liberals?  I don't recall the US being an 18th century welfare state.


I'm sorry.  I thought you knew what a liberal actually IS.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9676374 -

Madtowntripper said:
zappaisgod said:
Liberalism has no usefulness or function.  What makes those guys liberals?  I don't recall the US being an 18th century welfare state.


Quote:
Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals




This made me laugh my ass right off.  How do you reconcile mass wealth redistribution (a liberal sine qua non) with individual liberty?
Quote:
Quote:
"all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."




"All men are created equal" is a legal fiction for ensuring equal rights under the law.  In any other sense it is complete nonsense.
Quote:
Quote:
Do you really not see the correlation, or are you just being coy?




There is no correlation.


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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676391 -

You can't merely attach something that you believe to be characteristic to liberals to the textbook definition and have it stick.

That is like me saying the main tenant of Conservatism is the promoting of second-class citizenship for homosexuals, something you have vehemently argued as not having anything to do with conservative thought in the past.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676406 -

Are you seriously not familiar with classical liberalism?

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: Redstorm]
    #9676433 -

:hi5:


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #9676436 -

Madtowntripper said:
You can't merely attach something that you believe to be characteristic to liberals to the textbook definition and have it stick.



Textbook definition:

Quote:
The state or quality of being liberal.
1. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
2. often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
4. Liberalism
1. A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
  2. A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.


I think you were thinking of the "Foaming at the mouth Freeper" definition.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: TGRR]
    #9676443 -

Since Zappa cannot see any usefulness in protection from arbitrary authority, I am assuming we won't be hearing him bitch about taxes anymore?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: Redstorm]
    #9676471 -

Redstorm said:
Are you seriously not familiar with classical liberalism?


I figured this would come up and dismissed it.  If I was talking about classical liberalism I would have written "classical liberalism".  Your own use of the modifier suggests to me that you yourself are well aware that, as currently understood in the lexicon, "liberalism" is not "classical liberalism."  They are different.  As used in the current lexicon liberalism is defined as including wealth redistribution.


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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676503 -

> What is unobjective about examining the man's history

Nothing, but if you don't agree with Obama's policies, then you must be unobjective.  /sarcasm


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676516 -

zappaisgod said:
Redstorm said:
Are you seriously not familiar with classical liberalism?


I figured this would come up and dismissed it.  If I was talking about classical liberalism I would have written "classical liberalism".  Your own use of the modifier suggests to me that you yourself are well aware that, as currently understood in the lexicon, "liberalism" is not "classical liberalism."  They are different.  As used in the current lexicon liberalism is defined as including wealth redistribution.


Okay.  If you get to make up new definitions for "liberal", then I think we can all agree that conservativism now means:

1.  Borrow and spend.

2.  HUGE government.

3.  Absolute disdain for the US constitution.

4.  Nonstop cronyism.

Fair's fair.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676522 -

I used the qualifier because that is what Madtown was referring to and you seemed to be feigning ignorance about it.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676674 -

zappaisgod said:
Liberalism has no usefulness or function.  What makes those guys liberals?  I don't recall the US being an 18th century welfare state.


I started to reply, but everyone already called you on on your ignorance.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: TGRR]
    #9676675 -

TGRR said:
zappaisgod said:
Redstorm said:
Are you seriously not familiar with classical liberalism?


I figured this would come up and dismissed it.  If I was talking about classical liberalism I would have written "classical liberalism".  Your own use of the modifier suggests to me that you yourself are well aware that, as currently understood in the lexicon, "liberalism" is not "classical liberalism."  They are different.  As used in the current lexicon liberalism is defined as including wealth redistribution.


Okay.  If you get to make up new definitions for "liberal", then I think we can all agree that conservativism now means:

1.  Borrow and spend.

2.  HUGE government.

3.  Absolute disdain for the US constitution.

4.  Nonstop cronyism.

Fair's fair.


Republicans are not Conservatives.  Sadly they have not been for some time if they ever were.


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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: TGRR]
    #9676701 -

TGRR writes:

Quote:
So you basically find liberals such as Franklin, Woolman, Penn, Jefferson, etc, to have no usefulness or substance?


Please demonstrate for the audience the core positions shared by Obama on the one hand and Franklin, Woolman, Penn and Jefferson on the other.

Despite my lifelong interest (some say obsession) with political philosophy, I must confess I am too stoopid to see much - if any - overlap.






Phred


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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9676803 -

zappaisgod said:
TGRR said:
zappaisgod said:
Redstorm said:
Are you seriously not familiar with classical liberalism?


I figured this would come up and dismissed it.  If I was talking about classical liberalism I would have written "classical liberalism".  Your own use of the modifier suggests to me that you yourself are well aware that, as currently understood in the lexicon, "liberalism" is not "classical liberalism."  They are different.  As used in the current lexicon liberalism is defined as including wealth redistribution.


Okay.  If you get to make up new definitions for "liberal", then I think we can all agree that conservativism now means:

1.  Borrow and spend.

2.  HUGE government.

3.  Absolute disdain for the US constitution.

4.  Nonstop cronyism.

Fair's fair.


Republicans are not Conservatives.  Sadly they have not been for some time if they ever were.


And Democrats aren't liberals.  Same exact thing.  I know what you are complaining about, but it isn't liberalism.  Jefferson would spit on the Berkeley twits and PETA freaks who try to co-opt the word today.  On the other hand, most so-called "conservatives" would love to pistol whip a lefty like Jefferson, simply because he opposed autocracy.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: Phred]
    #9676813 -

Phred said:
TGRR writes:

Quote:
So you basically find liberals such as Franklin, Woolman, Penn, Jefferson, etc, to have no usefulness or substance?


Please demonstrate for the audience the core positions shared by Obama on the one hand and Franklin, Woolman, Penn and Jefferson on the other.

Despite my lifelong interest (some say obsession) with political philosophy, I must confess I am too stoopid to see much - if any - overlap.






Phred


Then talk to someone who is making such a claim.  We're discussing definitions of terms at the moment.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Re: Congratulations Obama [Re: TGRR]
    #9676943 -

Look, dude, this isn't rocket science here. Try to follow along ...


Zap pointed out that an examination of Obama's actions and the policies he purports to support reveals a near-complete lack of substance and/or utility. In response, you asked zap if he finds "Franklin, Woolman, Penn, Jefferson, etc," lacking in substance and/or utility -- apparently believing your transparent conflation of the modern connotation of "liberalism" as understood by every single poster in this forum with the Classical Liberal connotation as understood by those using the term some twenty-three decades ago is somehow a clever debating point rather than a shabby and sophomoric stunt.




Phred


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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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