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OfflineF0SS1L
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9849679 - 02/23/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You don't pay for anything.  I do.  Wars don't help humanity?  Bullshit.  Or would prefer to be speaking German today?  Or living under sharia law?  Because without it that's what we'd be doing.  I won't even bother asking if you would prefer communism.  I know you think you do.




I don't pay for anything? Who do you think you are? This may come as a shock to you, but not every productive member of society shares your world view. There are plenty of prosperous people paying for wars that would prefer not to. Please step in to reality because you're not singlehandedly paying for the welfare of others or America's completely absurd foreign operations.

As for Germany, I'm pretty sure they initiated the first act of aggression. Nevermind the fact that the first war was what created a state of hyper-inflation and a society so desperate that it would let a person like Hitler rise to power.

But I suppose I could take your stance and care nothing for the welfare of other people. My ancestry would probably allow me a pretty comfortable life in an Aryan world. Enjoy your labor camp.


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That's me on the street with a violin under my chin. Playing with a grin, singing gibberish.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: flip3084]
    #9849725 - 02/23/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

> I was wondering if you could give me an example of an actualy socialist, or communist society, that has contributed to the state of this view?

Cuba, North Korea


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlineflip3084
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Seuss]
    #9849744 - 02/23/09 11:55 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

There are no dictators in true communist or socilist society, therefore the closest thing we have to offer is Sweden.


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: F0SS1L]
    #9849775 - 02/23/09 12:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

F0SS1L said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You don't pay for anything.  I do.  Wars don't help humanity?  Bullshit.  Or would prefer to be speaking German today?  Or living under sharia law?  Because without it that's what we'd be doing.  I won't even bother asking if you would prefer communism.  I know you think you do.




I don't pay for anything? Who do you think you are? This may come as a shock to you, but not every productive member of society shares your world view. There are plenty of prosperous people paying for wars that would prefer not to. Please step in to reality because you're not singlehandedly paying for the welfare of others or America's completely absurd foreign operations.




It is true that there are a handful of people other than myself paying all the taxes.  It is also true that quite a few of them do not agree with me about the necessity to defend against lunatics and losers.  But one thing I am quite sure of is that you are not one of those people paying for it.
Quote:



As for Germany, I'm pretty sure they initiated the first act of aggression. Nevermind the fact that the first war was what created a state of hyper-inflation and a society so desperate that it would let a person like Hitler rise to power.




And Iraq and Afghanistan initiated their wars as well.
Quote:



But I suppose I could take your stance and care nothing for the welfare of other people. My ancestry would probably allow me a pretty comfortable life in an Aryan world. Enjoy your labor camp.




I'm probably as German as you.  And, surprisingly, I actually do care for people.  Here's a concept that you might want to consider.  By giving people everything they need you create a dependent class incapable of taking care of itself.  This has lately been gaining quite a bit of traction in re Africa, where no matter how much money is shoveled into the shithole things never improve.  Welfare kills.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: flip3084]
    #9849828 - 02/23/09 12:10 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

flip3084 said:
There are no dictators in true communist or socilist society, therefore the closest thing we have to offer is Sweden.




Only unicorns and fairies.  Sweden you say:
Quote:


But a group of young people squatted the office space on November 24th, and police intervened early this week to remove the occupants and empty the offices.

Police guarded the location until Wednesday, and once they left youths tried to occupy the building again.

Riots broke out on Wednesday night, when youths set fires in the area and threw stones and bottles at police. Seventeen youths were detained during those clashes.

"The origin of the riots is the occupation of the building. But that's not really the reason now, now other troublemakers have just joined in, taking advantage of the situation," Westford said.




Seems the commies and the jihadis are a bit too anti-capitalist even for Sweden.


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OfflineMan Unkind
trees grow in place
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9852409 - 02/23/09 07:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Basically everything zappaisgod has contributed to this thread has been either retarded by nationalism, a red bait with no logical support, or just plain wrong.

Afghanistan and Iraq did not commence hostilities, we did.

Monetary aid to Africa is literally nothing when compared to the United States military budget, and most of it ends up in the hands of either warlords or corrupt politicians.


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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Redstorm]
    #9852743 - 02/23/09 08:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
And amazingly enough, it's still provided for the highest quality of life in the history of mankind.




Very true.  Of course, that was back in the 1960's when companies were located here instead of setting up offshore PO boxes as tax havens, reinvested their profits here, built their products here, and union membership was at it's highest per capita levels ever, thus people had health insurance and job security.

These days, nearly every single western European country has a higher standard of living than the US, while we mire in debt to communist countries like China, and have their worthless crap shoved down our throats instead of quality products that last for generations.  We lag far behind western Europe in education, health care, culture and arts, and wages.

Of course, we're beating them hands-down in home foreclosure rates. :rolleyes:
RR


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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9852763 - 02/23/09 08:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

And guess what western European countries are? Capitalist.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Redstorm]
    #9852858 - 02/23/09 09:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
And guess what western European countries are? Capitalist.



No, they're dangerous, godless communies just like Obama. :whatever:

Europeans have figured out that that capitalism tempered with a little socialism can create quite a good society.

Cue angry zappa rant! :grin:


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OfflineMan Unkind
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #9853259 - 02/23/09 10:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Most of western Europe is center-left (for reference America is center-right) with a few socialist far left elements thrown in (and of course Socialist Sweden who does quite well).


Edited by Man Unkind (02/23/09 10:12 PM)


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #9853854 - 02/24/09 12:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>Europeans have figured out that that capitalism tempered with a little socialism can create quite a good society.

Indeed. America seems to have a major problem with recognising this; I think it stems from the fact that many don't realise that politics is a spectrum. It's not about "the American way of life" VS "godless Soviets" - it's about doing what's right for the people, regardless of where the ideas originated.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zouden]
    #9854285 - 02/24/09 03:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Indeed. America seems to have a major problem with recognising this; I think it stems from the fact that many don't realise that politics is a spectrum. It's not about "the American way of life" VS "godless Soviets" - it's about doing what's right for the people, regardless of where the ideas originated.




Spoken by somebody that obviously does not understand America.  The foundation of America is The American Dream, which basically means that anybody, regardless of race, origin, class, culture, caste, education, or anything else can become successful, and even insanely wealthy, if they are willing to put in effort to work.

America is one of the few places in the world where a person can pursue their goals in life through hard work and free choice without having been born into nobility, wealth, the proper caste, the ruling elite, or the wealthy.  In America, a no name college dropout can go on to be one of the wealthiest people in the world.

The idea of socialism goes completely against the American dream.  In American, if you want something, the opportunity exists for you to have it, but you have to work for it.  People are willing to help you get started, but nobody is going to hand you whatever you want for free just because you feel that you deserve it.  It's not about "the American way of life" VS "godless Soviets" - it is about opportunity and earning your keep rather than expecting others to take care of you.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Seuss]
    #9854294 - 02/24/09 03:58 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

My point was that ideology can blind people so that they can't see that their way isn't necessarily always the best way. I think your hand-on-the-heart spiel about the American Dream just serves to prove that. :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zouden]
    #9854311 - 02/24/09 04:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> I think your hand-on-the-heart spiel about the American Dream ...

... shows that you don't get it if you think that was a "hand on the heart spiel".  What I wrote wasn't some patriotic drivel, but a description of how things work in the US and why most people in the US are anti-socialist.  If you want something, you work for it, because anybody and everybody has equal opportunity.  Some might start off better than others, but anybody can succeed.  Granted, the US has been slow in some areas of equality (first black President, still waiting for a female President, etc), but overall opportunity to succeed is open to everybody that is willing to work for their dream.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Seuss]
    #9854324 - 02/24/09 04:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

America is one of the few places in the world where a person can pursue their goals in life through hard work and free choice without having been born into nobility, wealth, the proper caste, the ruling elite, or the wealthy.  In America, a no name college dropout can go on to be one of the wealthiest people in the world.



:lol: Spoken by someone that obviously doesn't understand the rest of the industrialised world. Your rant was ridiculously unfounded and based on obsolete rhetoric.

If you look at research on the subject you'll notice that many have found that not only does the US not have the world's highest possibility for economic mobility but it is rather low on the list for industrialised countries. This study had this to say:
Quote:

By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States.


Center for American Progress (page 4)

Another study backs up this finding:
Quote:

There is little available evidence that the United States has more relative mobility than other advanced nations. If anything, the data seem to suggest the opposite. Using the relationship between parents’ and children’s incomes as an indicator of relative mobility, data show that a number of countries, 5 including Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Sweden, Germany, and France have more relative mobility than does the United States


American Dream Report (page 7)

This graph from the report really underlines this conclusion:



If you look at the numbers, the American Dream actually looks like a steaming hunk of shit these days. I suppose now you'll want to tell me how the US has the best health care and education in the world.

"It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it"- George Carlin


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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/24/09 04:45 AM)


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Seuss]
    #9854352 - 02/24/09 04:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>What I wrote wasn't some patriotic drivel, but a description of how things work in the US

Yes but it's also how things work in many other countries too. The US isn't special in that regard.

>and why most people in the US are anti-socialist.

I think most people in the US are anti-socialist because of fears lingering from cold war propaganda, rather than being based on any real understanding of how social democracy works.

>Granted, the US has been slow in some areas of equality (first black President, still waiting for a female President, etc)

And which areas of equality is it ahead in?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zouden]
    #9854386 - 02/24/09 05:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> And which areas of equality is it ahead in?

Mainly that you don't need to be born into success in order to succeed.


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: Seuss]
    #9854404 - 02/24/09 05:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

That is not exclusive to the US at all. See above.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zouden]
    #9854483 - 02/24/09 06:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

People in the US are anti-socialist because the country's political history. The Cold War didn't lead to this, it was caused by it.

As these values are backed by the oldest Constitution in the world, it is expected that they would be quite ingrained.

You have to realize that much of your beliefs about modern liberalism are biased just as they are biased by those living in the US.


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Offlineflip3084
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Re: Obama's Cabinet Of Corruption (Do Democrats EVER Pay Taxes?) [Re: zouden]
    #9854736 - 02/24/09 08:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:


Indeed. America seems to have a major problem with recognising this; I think it stems from the fact that many don't realise that politics is a spectrum. It's not about "the American way of life" VS "godless Soviets" - it's about doing what's right for the people, regardless of where the ideas originated.




Very well put...Compassion, for compassions sake, not for tax right offs


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