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 zouden
Neuroscientist
 
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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 Re: Voting Ethics  [Re: deCypher]
#8960565 - 09/20/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm so glad this thread is in P&S. If it was in the politics forum, every second post would be people yelling "ALL POLITICIANS ARE THE SAME" or endless videos about Sarah Palin.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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 lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
#8960672 - 09/20/08 09:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think what it comes down to is I don't believe a person should have their representative in government if they have an uncommon or unconventional viewpoint. Through strategic voting, it seems to me that what you are doing is trying to give your own philosophy a disproportional place in the government relative to votes.
To me that seems incompatible with the idea of true democracy, and unethical.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
adjust said:
I think what it comes down to is I don't believe a person should have their representative in government if they have an uncommon or unconventional viewpoint.
No, it's more of a matter of pragmatics. I don't believe in voting if my vote isn't likely to change the way this country is run (which it's not if I vote for the 3rd party candidate who will lose to one of the major two.)
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
#8960709 - 09/20/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
hamandcheese said:
Quote:
adjust said:
The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.
Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!
and i would strongly disagree... the circumstance at hand should dictate how you vote. i've already presenteed this in a mathmatical logic. but i will GLADY vote for my second choice if it helps keep the choice i disagree with most out of office.
X----------------A-----(M)------B-------------*----Z
Xis extreme left.
A is Moderately left
M represents the middle or perfectly moderate POV
B is moderately right
Z is extreme right
* is where you stand on this spectrum
90% of people fall somewhere between A and B and presumably 5% on either side.
so it clear that neither Xnor Z will win the election.
Since B is CLOSER to my ideal i would rather have him in office than A.
what can i do to help get B in and prevent A from getting in?
when you lok at it like that a vote for Z seems futile, and only serves to indirectly help A.
think of it like a giant game of "TUG O' WAR"
your either on the left or right of the middle"flag". voting for XorZ would be like trying to get that flag on your side by simply pushing on the ground but not actually touching the rope.
It's not always that simple as always left or always right. For example, someone with libertarian beliefs has very, very social views and very, very conservative economic views.
There is no real way to compromise these beliefs with parties that are either moderately left or moderately right on both social and economic issues.
Can someone address what a rational person should do in this situation?
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Quote:
adjust said:
What I'm saying is voting B is unethical and a step backward from what it is to be a democracy. In my opinion of course.
all depends on what ethical basis you abide by and what kind of democracy we're talking about.
assuming you mean a direct democracy... which is ineffeicent and impractical usually
just remember the only person who can 100% coincide with and represent your thoughts and ideals is yourself, but half the time we don't even know what we think.
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
#8960723 - 09/20/08 09:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Can someone address what a rational person should do in this situation?
flip a coin 
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
#8960766 - 09/20/08 09:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Can someone address what a rational person should do in this situation?
I actually started writing something but my browser crashed.
>There is no real way to compromise these beliefs with parties that are either moderately left or moderately right on both social and economic issues.
I see what your saying, but I disagree that there's no way to compromise. If you ask (say) a professed libertarian which candidate they would prefer out of the 2 mainstream candidates, all but the most fanatical would eventually admit that they do have a preference for one over the other.
Of course, the whole problem is drastically reduced if a preferential system like single-transferable-vote is used, as we discussed at the start of the thread.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
#8960782 - 09/20/08 09:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some philosophies cannot be placed on an imaginary tug o war rope of opposing left and right wing ideas. In that case there is less strategic advantage to voting for someone else.
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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perhaps there should be 2 "tug O wars"
one for social issues and one for economic.
it gets a little hazzy when one has more "wieght" than the other but none the less chose who closest approximates your ideals between the two. plot the canidates on this graph then chose whoevers line is shorter when drawn to where you stand.
you can even argue there should be a third perhaps, possibly the need (or lack there of) of government itself) but idk if you don't believe theres a need for government whats voting gonna do?
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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I think one thing has become clear in this thread; the need for election reform in the United States. I must confess, I didn't really have a great awareness of the different voting methods available to a democracy, and I sure didn't think it made that much of a difference in the results. I think this issue deserves to be placed amongst the most important issues to fight for. I found this organization, http://fairvote.org/, ; I don't know too much about them yet, but the site seems useful.
Obviously, in a Single Transferable Vote/ Instant Runoff type system, the ethical dilemma I presented in this thread would be nonexistent.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
#8965621 - 09/21/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you're interested in learning more about electoral models, proportional representation is one used in many parliamentary systems. It's got a lot of good things going for it including the inclusion of many minority parties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
#8965776 - 09/21/08 09:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said:
I think one thing has become clear in this thread; the need for election reform in the United States. I must confess, I didn't really have a great awareness of the different voting methods available to a democracy, and I sure didn't think it made that much of a difference in the results. I think this issue deserves to be placed amongst the most important issues to fight for. I found this organization, [url=http://fairvote.org/, ]http://fairvote.org/, [/url]; I don't know too much about them yet, but the site seems useful.
Obviously, in a Single Transferable Vote/ Instant Runoff type system, the ethical dilemma I presented in this thread would be nonexistent.
What becomes clear to me is that the reform that is needed is in the human heart and mind. IMO the place to start is for everyone to refuse to participate in this corrupt fiasco.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Icelander]
#8965799 - 09/21/08 09:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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That won't accomplish anything. Already, only a minority of eligible voters actually vote, and and no one cares. Its funny how large voter turnout is more likely to make the news. Not ha ha funny tho...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
#8965818 - 09/21/08 09:47 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well like me we would have to not vote because we do care and let it be known in other ways also. But I lost my high hopes for change a while ago. Really taking a look at history and then at my friends and acquaintances had a lot to do with that.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
#8965878 - 09/21/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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i agree that the current system needs reform. but keep in mind that every voting system is going to have some flaws. i like the idea of a STV type of sysytem but im sure it has its drawbacks. and its certianly not something thats gonna change over night. we need to change it some how... how bout starting small like getting rid of the idea of winner takes all states. it just seems unfair to me. the EVs shopuld be more proprotionat to the actual voter make up.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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People have been complaining about the electoral college for as long as I've been alive and long before. It's a working part of a corrupt system.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
hamandcheese said:
i agree that the current system needs reform. but keep in mind that every voting system is going to have some flaws. i like the idea of a STV type of sysytem but im sure it has its drawbacks. and its certianly not something thats gonna change over night. we need to change it some how... how bout starting small like getting rid of the idea of winner takes all states. it just seems unfair to me. the EVs shopuld be more proprotionat to the actual voter make up.
Do you realize how utterly unlikely that is? The system will not fix the system.
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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lets compare the current system to what im talking about.
given that
A gets 50% of the votes
B gets 35%
C gets 15%
the out come in a 3 EV state would be
A =3
B=0
C=0
A did win the majority but an equal amount of people go un represented.
IMO it should break down more like this
A= 2
B=1
C=0
granted yes 15 percent still go un represneted but that much better than 50%. and since they have Only 3 ev its is only a small fraction of the general populus
lets suppose the same results in a larger state like florida with 27 EV
100/27 comes out to 3.703rep so every 3.7 or so% of votes = 1 EV
gets tricking with remainders but its entirely workable
A= 50%/ 3.7=13.51 so for now we'll give him 13
B= 35/3.7= 9.45 = 9
C= 15/ 3.7= 4.05= 4
any fractional EV would then be given to the top vote getter
so
A=14
B=9
C=4
in the event that no canidate reaches the needed 270 EV to win before it is sent to congress to decide. first the last place finisher from each state would be eliminated and the EV redistrubuted accordingly. if that still doesnt decide it eliminate the next lowest vote getter (assuming there are more than 3 who recieved enough votes to recieve an EV)
it just seem to better represent the makeup of a state rather than the winnertakes all idea, with out eliminating the EC all together which leaves minorities even less represented.
sorry if im a little unclear... much0 tiredo. if you need me to elaborate id be happy to after class tomorrow.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
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Quote:
The system will not fix the system.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
adjust said:
Quote:
hamandcheese said:
i agree that the current system needs reform. but keep in mind that every voting system is going to have some flaws. i like the idea of a STV type of sysytem but im sure it has its drawbacks. and its certianly not something thats gonna change over night. we need to change it some how... how bout starting small like getting rid of the idea of winner takes all states. it just seems unfair to me. the EVs shopuld be more proprotionat to the actual voter make up.
Do you realize how utterly unlikely that is? The system will not fix the system.
Word
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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