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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880112 - 05/06/07 01:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Has there been any presidents that haven't done all of that dishonest shtuff~....?


>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6880120 - 05/06/07 01:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Has there been any presidents that haven't done all of that dishonest shtuff~....?


>^;;^<



Probably the most honest president, at least in the past century, was Jimmy Carter. And historians generally rank his presidency as a failure.


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880126 - 05/06/07 01:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

your work performance would show, and you might get fired as a consequence....




Bush's cheating in the National Guard, constant lying, reneging on campaign promises and poor performance in office in nearly every endeavor won him a second term.

So much for your theory.




So, an exception to a trend means that the trend is automatically falsified? That doesn't seem sound to me.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Redstorm]
    #6880220 - 05/06/07 02:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In a usual corporate job review, there are maybe 1 to 3 managers overlooking your performance and ofenttimes one's performance is not readily visible or obvious to the reviewers.

In Bush's case, his egregious blunders are there for public scrutiny and he has 200,000,000 reviewers for his performance.

So this single 'exception' is a strong case that performance and position do not necessarily go hand in hand. We could also look at CEOs getting paid millions while running their corporations into the ground.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880466 - 05/06/07 03:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

And we could also look at the large majority of CEO's who do not run their business into the ground.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6883110 - 05/07/07 04:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
How would you feel about stealing $1,000 if everyone else was doing it too?




How would you feel about invading Iraq if everyone else was doing it?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6885436 - 05/07/07 07:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
How would you feel about invading Iraq if everyone else was doing it?




What are you talking about? :what:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6885503 - 05/07/07 07:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, what does Iraq have to do with the price of tea?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6888016 - 05/08/07 08:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What is it you don't understand?


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6888019 - 05/08/07 08:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Similie; and demonstrating the argument is situational.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6888134 - 05/08/07 09:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why create a self which does not align with your personal values?

Well, but this is part of my point. Because cheating doesn't jive with my personal values, getting ahead that way won't work for me.

BUT, if I didn't have a pesky conscience to live with, cheating would put me at a relative advantage in life relative to my peers and wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, so why not do it?




One of the best examples I can think of on the subject of cheating is the game of golf. The entire foundation of the game is based on the individual player having the integrity to follow, and apply, the rules to themselves. In other words, call yourself on rules infractions and report the same to your fellow competitors.

Interestingly, I read a study (from where i can't remember) some years ago that sort of parallels the one you quoted at the start of the post.
In essence, the researchers targeted golfers that cheat, and questioned them on a whole number of areas in their lives. The conclusion was that people who cheat in golf, will also cheat on their taxes, cheat on a monogamous relationship, cheat in business, or in any aspect of their lives that the occasion permits.

The point here, IMO, is that cheating is usually not an isolated incident. If one will engage in cheating in one aspect of life, it will likely carry over into other areas of their lives with lying, stealing, (which is "cheating" on taxes) false claims, etc.

If that fits in with with ones perception of values, then so be it. My suspicion though, is that a whole number of people run into a lot of grief in their lives due to dishonesty.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6888644 - 05/08/07 12:43 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Similie; and demonstrating the argument is situational.

Your comment doesn't apply here. I'm not talking about doing something because everyone else does, as in going with the flow, not making waves, and such, which is what your Iraq comment goes to.

What I'm talking about is that there are two ways for your situation to lag behind where you would like it to be with respect to some social benchmark. Quality of life, in this context.

1. Everyone else moves ahead and you don't

2. You move backward and everyone else stays in place

My contention is that if everyone else is cheating and getting away with it, and if you could too but don't, then #1 applies. Everyone else moves ahead, gets a better job, has more toys, and arguably is happier than you who stick to your ethics and relatively fall behind.

This presumes the functional sociopath Veritas and I discussed, not the pathological sociopath who clearly is unhappy. These are people who seem happy, well adjusted, and functional even though they are cheats and know it.

I think most of us fall into that category. For example, I consider myself an essentially honest person, but I know that I'm a thief in that I download music and other intellectual property that doesn't belong to me. That is theft no matter how people uncomfortable with the label "thief" try to rationalize it.

So, while I know I am mildly sociopathic by way of being a thief, I'm still happy and at the end of the year, have a few extra bucks in my pocket to spend on ice cream that I would otherwise not have if I'd payed for the music I stole, and which many (most) others steal too. From that point of view, I get all benefit and no drawback compared to my more-ethical peers.

See what I mean?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,399
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6888723 - 05/08/07 01:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

As I wrote here many years ago, I created some landmark software that took me seven years to develop. After being pirated so badly that I made less than peanuts for my efforts, I never developed privately again - a possible loss for myself and a portion of humanity.

Other inventors, artists and musicians may also stop contributing because of theft and we may all be the poorer for that.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6888735 - 05/08/07 01:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There is too much inventing (and venting) going on anyway. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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