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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8958115 - 09/20/08 10:53 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Candidates A and B are front-runners in a virtual tie.  Candidate Z is a dark horse with much less popular support.  Tom is opposed to candidate A, indifferent to candidate B, and favors candidate Z.  Voting for candidate B would help to work against A, however candidate B doesn't really measure up to Tom's expectations.  Voting for candidate Z would fulfill Tom's preferences for a candidate, however it is virtually out of the question that candidate Z will win, and voting for Z could indirectly help A win.  Who should Tom vote for?




If you feel you must indulge in that system then my advice is always vote for the lesser of two evils. This Z person is a disaster waiting to happen. Just add success and power.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8959004 - 09/20/08 03:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I say vote strategically, not with your heart.  Vote B. 

"Vote your heart and eventually Z-party will be a contender" is a pipe dream. 

The big cultural changes that Z supporters fantasize about will never be the product of an election.  Politics will not save us.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8959022 - 09/20/08 03:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: I agree.  The only method for making changes which are not currently popular with the majority is grassroots activism.  The political system will always represent the majority, and thus be motivated to maintain the status quo. 

Be the change you wish to see in the world! (And vote to keep the extremists out of power!)

Personally, I would like it if you could vote "no" for a particular candidate, as you can on ballot measures.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8959026 - 09/20/08 03:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Then the strength of his vote is dependent on who he votes for; a vote for A or B will have a bigger effect than a vote for Z, thus there is incentive for him to vote for a candidate who wouldn't normally be his first choice.

This means the voting system is flawed and should be replaced.




QFT.  I can't stand people who only ensure that A will win by voting for Z.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959281 - 09/20/08 04:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

But what if there are more Z supporters out there than you think? Someone said its a pipe dream, but I still wonder.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: adrug]
    #8959288 - 09/20/08 04:49 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Candidate Z is a dark horse with much less popular support.




Going with the given conditions of the problem, B is a better choice.  But I do agree if there's enough grassroots support, Z might have a chance.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959350 - 09/20/08 05:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If the difference between Z and B are large, vote Z. Even the slightest undermining of ones integrity is a complete undermining.

If the difference between Z and B are negligible, though, of course vote for B.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8959360 - 09/20/08 05:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

What?  I'd say the exact opposite.  If the difference between Z and B is negligible, this means Z has more of a chance to win, and since you like Z better, it would make more sense to vote for Z.

If the difference between Z and B is large, it's clear that Z will have a much lower chance of winning than B, and since you don't want A winning, you should cast your vote for B.

Voting based on a concept of idealized democracy and not undermining integrity might have been fine in the time of Jefferson, but this is politics.  Being honest (to one's self) is not always the best policy.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959413 - 09/20/08 05:26 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


What?  I'd say the exact opposite.  If the difference between Z and B is negligible, this means Z has more of a chance to win, and since you like Z better, it would make more sense to vote for Z.

If the difference between Z and B is large, it's clear that Z will have a much lower chance of winning than B, and since you don't want A winning, you should cast your vote for B.




I was following the rules set in the initial post.

Quote:

Being honest (to one's self) is not always the best policy.




It's unfortunate that you feel that it is prudent to delude yourself.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8959455 - 09/20/08 05:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have to agree with Redstorm.

If there is only a small difference in B and Z, vote B. However, voting B in this case is dishonest, and it goes against the theme of democracy... you are voting for someone to represent YOU... so you pick the one who you want.

If everyone just voted for who they wanted then you wouldn't have such a large problem...

But this kind of problem is unavoidable if there is only one seat to fill. Maybe if you had 5 presidents instead of one?


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959556 - 09/20/08 06:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Voting based on a concept of idealized democracy and not undermining integrity might have been fine in the time of Jefferson, but this is politics.  Being honest (to one's self) is not always the best policy.




i agree that through time reasoning rational and methodology of voting is going to change and should, but being honest with your self IS the best policy.

in this case being honest with yourself means realizing that Z is not going to win and that a vote to Z is a vote that could go to the more likely to win B. realizing this means realizing that despite Z being your iclosest to your deals, B is your best choice, because he best approximates them while still having a legitmate chance of wining.


be aware of the circumstances then ask who you should honestly vote for.


--------------------


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8959646 - 09/20/08 06:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
I have to agree with Redstorm.

If there is only a small difference in B and Z, vote B. However, voting B in this case is dishonest, and it goes against the theme of democracy... you are voting for someone to represent YOU... so you pick the one who you want.

If everyone just voted for who they wanted then you wouldn't have such a large problem...

But this kind of problem is unavoidable if there is only one seat to fill. Maybe if you had 5 presidents instead of one?




how is it dishonest exactly? and what theme of democracy does it defy?
what makes you think that the vast majority of people don't vote for who they want with in the choices given?
if you think that there is this mass of would be thrid party voters out there who step in to the booth and say aww fuck it ill just vote for A or B, you my bfriend have an extremely myopic veiw of politics.


if you want third partys in  the white house you might wanna think about getting more in congress and even state and local government. a thrid party's best bet to gaining the needed exposure and momentum to get in the white house starts from the ground up. VOTE THIRD PARTY WHERE IT COUNTS!!!!!!!!!!!


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8959795 - 09/20/08 07:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
how is it dishonest exactly? and what theme of democracy does it defy?
what makes you think that the vast majority of people don't vote for who they want with in the choices given?



The original democracy was a rule by the people. There were no elected officials... the citizens made the decisions themselves without help from elected officials. Again there were no elected officials, citizens made all the decisions themselves.

That is what democracy is, rule by the people. Our system in Canada is an approximation of that system. Instead of ruling yourself, you elect a representative that is most likely to do what you would do, if you could.

However, because there are so much fewer positions than there are citizens, some viewpoints will not be represented. That is the reason it is not true democracy, because everyone's viewpoint is not represented in power.

It is supposed to be a fairly good compromise.

The reason it is a good compromise is because if there are a diversity of candidates and you choose the one that suits you the best, it works similar to a direct democracy where citizens rule.

Now here is the problem, the greater the disparity between the citizens and the rulers, the less like a true democracy it functions. For example let's say that you have a population of 250 million citizens and elect 2500 rulers to make decisions. Those 2500 rulers will have a diversity of ideas and will probably be a fair approximation of a direct democracy.

Now let's say you have 250 million citizens and only 1 ruler. This is the furthest you can possibly get from democracy... because anything less and you elect ZERO rulers and presumably have a dictatorship.

The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!


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Invisiblemofo
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Veritas]
    #8959825 - 09/20/08 07:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:

Personally, I would like it if you could vote "no" for a particular candidate, as you can on ballot measures.




Ha! I had this thought before too.  How great would it be to go to a political rally for an incumbent, and during the Q & A get up there and before you ask your question say, "not only did I not vote for you, I voted against you..."


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8959883 - 09/20/08 07:38 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Now let's say you have 250 million citizens and only 1 ruler. This is the furthest you can possibly get from democracy... because anything less and you elect ZERO rulers and presumably have a dictatorship.




Indeed. Westminster system for the win.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960116 - 09/20/08 08:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!





and i would strongly disagree... the circumstance at hand should dictate how you vote. i've already presenteed this in a mathmatical logic. but i will GLADY vote for my second choice if it helps keep the choice i disagree with most out of office.


X----------------A-----(M)------B-------------*----Z

Xis extreme left.
A is Moderately left
M represents the middle or perfectly moderate POV
B is moderately right
Z is extreme right
* is where you stand on this spectrum


90% of people fall somewhere between A and B and presumably 5% on either side.
so it clear that neither Xnor Z will win the election.
Since B is CLOSER to my ideal i would rather have him in office than A.


what can i do to help get B in and prevent A from getting in?
when you lok at it like that a vote for Z seems futile, and only serves to indirectly help A.



think of  it like a giant game of "TUG O' WAR"

your either on the left or right of the middle"flag". voting for XorZ would be like trying to get that flag on your side by simply pushing on the ground but not actually touching the rope.


--------------------


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8960421 - 09/20/08 09:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
Quote:

adjust said:
The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!





and i would strongly disagree... the circumstance at hand should dictate how you vote. i've already presenteed this in a mathmatical logic. but i will GLADY vote for my second choice if it helps keep the choice i disagree with most out of office.


X----------------A-----(M)------B-------------*----Z

Xis extreme left.
A is Moderately left
M represents the middle or perfectly moderate POV
B is moderately right
Z is extreme right
* is where you stand on this spectrum


90% of people fall somewhere between A and B and presumably 5% on either side.
so it clear that neither Xnor Z will win the election.
Since B is CLOSER to my ideal i would rather have him in office than A.


what can i do to help get B in and prevent A from getting in?
when you lok at it like that a vote for Z seems futile, and only serves to indirectly help A.



think of  it like a giant game of "TUG O' WAR"

your either on the left or right of the middle"flag". voting for XorZ would be like trying to get that flag on your side by simply pushing on the ground but not actually touching the rope.




It's not always that simple as always left or always right. For example, someone with libertarian beliefs has very, very social views and very, very conservative economic views.

There is no real way to compromise these beliefs with parties that are either moderately left or moderately right on both social and economic issues.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8960493 - 09/20/08 10:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I definitely see your point ham and cheese. And I can see that at least mathematically, you would have more of your own ideas reflected in government if you voted B.

What I'm saying is voting B is unethical and a step backward from what it is to be a democracy. In my opinion of course.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960539 - 09/20/08 10:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would agree with you that it's unethical, if candidate Z was perfect. But in reality, no candidate perfectly fits my views, so choosing a candidate will always be a matter of compromise. So there are no absolutes, and it's not unethical to consider all aspects of a candidate (such as his chance of winning).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8960555 - 09/20/08 10:29 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I would agree with you that it's unethical, if candidate Z was perfect. But in reality, no candidate perfectly fits my views, so choosing a candidate will always be a matter of compromise. So there are no absolutes, and it's not unethical to consider all aspects of a candidate (such as his chance of winning).




QFT.  Besides, when did ethics ever factor into politics in the first place? :wink:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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