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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879822 - 05/06/07 11:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Raw evolutionary terms = survival of the fittest

When we are dealing with humans we must be careful as to how we define "fittest." Humans are unique animals, as they can hasten their own demise through their habitual emotional states. Assuming the presence of a conscience, the drawbacks of engaging in unethical acts could far outweigh the benefits.

Cheating on your taxes is probably not creating a significant evolutionary advantage, as those who do not cheat will probably still live & pass on their genetic material.

If you want to reduce the choice to: steal or die, lie or watch your offspring killed, cheat or face castration--then we might be able to define this as an evolutionary imperative.

Anything which does not interfere or does not aid physical survival or transmission of genetic material is NOT an evolutionary imperative.

So, given the example of your Original Post: disagree.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6879855 - 05/06/07 12:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

As far as cheating on University exams and papers...well your only cheating yourself in that case.

That depends.

If your cheating peers graduate near the top of the class and later land the cushy high-paying job you wanted but didn't get because your grades were a little lower, then did you cheat yourself or did you play the chump?

I think you played the chump.

In the end, you're both essentially competent at the profession, but your ethics reduced your income and standard of living and gave you back nothing at all in exchange.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879890 - 05/06/07 12:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Your conclusion assumes that obtaining that high-paying job, wherein grades falsely obtained count more than actual qualifications, is the only winning outcome of the situation.

Perhaps the environment in which applicants are judged primarily by numbers would not be appropriate for someone with ethics and and conscience, and thus there would be nothing gained by compromising one's values in order to obtain employment in said workplace.

Also at issue in this situation is the internal environment created by perceived ethical violations. The only person you can't ever get away from, as long as you live, is yourself. Why create a self which does not align with your personal values?

Quote:

gave you back nothing at all in exchange.




Perhaps nothing which you can put on your resume, or show off in your driveway, but perhaps something worth more than any external reward.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6879897 - 05/06/07 12:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Exactly....  :thumbup:

I think that I am also being overly critical of MushroomTrip's choice of words for some reason this morning....  :sherlock:
She prolly~ intended to mean "killing" rather than "murder" in the first place....    :smile:

***repeats to myself ten times***
"lighten up doood"   

:tongue:


>^;;^<




:mad: :rofl2:

Don't you pick on Sherlock :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879902 - 05/06/07 12:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In raw evolutionary terms, not cheating when you have high confidence in your ability to get away with it puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage?

Agree or disagree?




Agree.
Being drawn by the thought of being able of getting away with it puts a stop to being in need for actually learning.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879907 - 05/06/07 12:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Why create a self which does not align with your personal values?

Well, but this is part of my point. Because cheating doesn't jive with my personal values, getting ahead that way won't work for me.

BUT, if I didn't have a pesky conscience to live with, cheating would put me at a relative advantage in life relative to my peers and wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, so why not do it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Last seen: 8 months, 25 days
Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879931 - 05/06/07 12:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BUT, if I didn't have a pesky conscience to live with, cheating would put me at a relative advantage in life relative to my peers and wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, so why not do it?




Well you were talking about an evolutionary disadvantage, which will happen if you choose to cheat.
This doesn't mean that you won't be relaxed of it, what's the contradiction here?
One could sleep very relaxed trusting in his/hers cheating abilities and save one of a lot of stress but still put a stop to one's evolution in knowledge.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879933 - 05/06/07 12:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think that those who live without a conscience are already at a great disadvantage, and to compare oneself unfavorably to them is absurd.  :shrug:

I like having a conscience, I believe that it is inextricably linked with empathy, compassion, and the ability to deeply enjoy being alive.  I would not amputate my conscience for all the $$ and toys in the world.

Rather than feel unfairly "held back" compared to those without that pesky conscience, IMO it would be more appropriate to feel deep sympathy for all that they cannot experience.


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InvisibleJackthaTripper
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879942 - 05/06/07 12:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In this scenario, would it be ethical for you to join in on the $1,000 yearly theft or would ethics still bind you to honesty even if all it does is make you effectively $1,000 poorer?

Can ethics be absolute or is it relative to your surroundings?





From what I've learned there are two basic diametrically apposed methods for evaluating ethical situations: Utilitarianism and Duty Based. If you believe in Utilitarianism you believe that the end justifies the means so you could believe that it would be ok to take the money because it helps to maximize your utility (at the expense of another persons displeasure). If Duty Based ethics is more your bag then you see the world through the eyes of the golden rule. In this case you would see the stealing as a poor ethical choice as you know you are defrauding somebody and the consequence of you losing money is irrelevant.

However, the real answer is it is all in the eye of the beholder because ethical choices are subjective.


--------------------


Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879951 - 05/06/07 12:42 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I believe that [conscience] is inextricably linked with ... the ability to deeply enjoy being alive

feel deep sympathy for all that they cannot experience.


You're projecting.

You can't know that another with no conscience isn't experiencing as fulfilling a life as you are. For all you really know, living without a conscience frees you to enjoy and experience life more fully than with one.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879958 - 05/06/07 12:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In raw evolutionary terms, not cheating when you have high confidence in your ability to get away with it puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage?
.
Agree or disagree?





Disagree....

For discussion, I will talk as though evolution is "it"  (for discussion)....  :wink:
If we were evolving Darwin style, then the only true way to answer the question of
advantage or disadvantage, is to know what we were (as a species) evolving into....

If one was to speculate that for the ultimate survival as a life form, the species
(humans, being the highest thinking lifeforms that we think we know of)
is evolving in the direction of being perfection as life (in every aspect)....

As we expand and change intellectually as a species, and as time moves forward,
we are arguably "becoming" more civilized (as it relates to our "known" historic timeline and events)....
Since it is evolution, as a species, we know that being civilized lets all as a whole have a better chance at survival....

Evolving to the speculative "life as perfection" , do you think cheating would benefit as a survival advantage
if a perfect intellectual and physical species was the true course goal of evolution....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879965 - 05/06/07 12:50 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

While I have never personally experienced living without a conscience, I have been engaged in an in-depth study of Sociopathology, including many first-person accounts, for over 15 years.

I probably know as much as it is possible to know about life without a conscience, without actually having had the subjective POV.  :shrug:

I cannot say for certain that life without a conscience is terrible, yet all the evidence at hand supports this conclusion.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879967 - 05/06/07 12:50 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Is it always wrong for one human to force sexual intercourse on another human?




Not if it was Cinco de Mayo in Vegas and the other was a hottie and totally drunk on margueritas - but enough about last night...


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879974 - 05/06/07 12:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I'll defer to your knowledge on the subject, but a question:

The sociopaths I've known about appear unhappy only because their behavior is at odds with our laws which either land them in jail (making them unhappy) or cause them to curb their natural behavior to avoid jail (making them unhappy).

So, are they unhappy because they're sociopaths or because society restricts their nature?

Edit: also, I think you're referring to people pathologically sociopathic. I believe there are many functional sociopaths in society who have no conscience about cheating or stealing if they can get away with it but who won't kill anyone either. A partial conscience of sorts. And I think those people live as fulfilling lives as anyone else and sleep perfectly fine at night even though they know they're cheats and thieves.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879991 - 05/06/07 12:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I would not cheat on graduate exams because I feel I would be forgoing the preparation and gaining of knowledge necessary to do well on the exam without cheating. This knowledge can then be employed later in crucial activities where the option to cheat are not present.

I also would not cheat because I feel I have the ability to perform just as well, if not better, than someone who cheats on an exam.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6880004 - 05/06/07 01:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I guess they can't miss what they have never had.  :shrug:

My study on the topic has led me to conclude that the "something" which is missing from those who lack a conscience, whether this lack allows them to cheat without guilt or serially murder other humans in a ritualistic manner, is crucial to experiencing the fullest potential of being human.

I liken the inner experience of those with severe attachment disorders (aka sociopaths) to that of the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz.  Hollow inside, with nothing but a fading echo resulting from other's attempts to tap on their chest.  Without a heart, without empathy, without conscience, without compassion, without depth and inner substance, they simply are not capable of experiencing what I find most wonderful about being human.

But that's just my value system talking.  :wink:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6880006 - 05/06/07 01:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If your cheating peers graduate near the top of the class and later land the cushy high-paying job you wanted but didn't get because your grades were a little lower, then did you cheat yourself or did you play the chump?
.
I think you played the chump.
.
In the end, you're both essentially competent at the profession, but your ethics reduced your income and standard of living and gave you back nothing at all in exchange.




If you cheated thru all of your tests to get high grades, to get a good'er job,
your work performance would show, and you might get fired as a consequence.... 
Who's the chump....?

And if it is your first job, you are gaining a career and gaining a paying job, not reducing your income and standard of living....!?  :lol:
**Most** companies recognize the value of a good knowledgeable hard working honest person by moving him/her to a higher income....
If you are not getting paid what you think you "should" be paid,
then it is time to talk to the boss, and/or find someone who will pay you what you want....    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6880045 - 05/06/07 01:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

your work performance would show, and you might get fired as a consequence....




Bush's cheating in the National Guard, constant lying, reneging on campaign promises and poor performance in office in nearly every endeavor won him a second term.

So much for your theory.


--------------------


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880051 - 05/06/07 01:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Politics is always the exception to the rule, as they, make the rules....!    :lol:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6880060 - 05/06/07 01:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The general populace voted him in again, not Washington DC.


--------------------


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