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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers
    #6222217 - 10/29/06 05:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This forum occupies a central role in my life and since the concepts of ethical/not ethical, right/wrong, good/evil are central to philosophy I spend a lot of time thinking about them. One of the ideas I've been grappling with lately revolves around the ethics of software and music piracy. A few years ago I started a thread about intellectual property piracy in general and the ethics of copying music in particular. I got varying replies, but to my surprise most of the replies were in favor of piracy.

It seemed to me that the reasons most of those in favor of piracy gave were dishonest and self-serving. The respondents seemed almost to be making excuses for their piracy and dodging my direct questions intended to expose that they're stealing, rather than giving me coherent and consistent reasons for why they pirate intellectual property. I also couldn't help but notice that none of the piracy proponents were themselves successful publishing musicians who almost unanimously speak out against piracy.

I think this is a result of human nature. It's hard to put yourself in another's shoes, in this case the shoes of a musician who makes a living through his art. I think most of those who support piracy would change their mind if they suddenly found themselves with a hit record and, due to piracy, they were receiving only a fraction of the royalties commensurate with the popularity of their music.

Now, it occurs to me that most of the arguments used by pirates to defend their behavior correspond closely to the arguments used by spammers to defend theirs. In a nutshell, the spammers' argument is "I'm not hurting anyone because those spammed can just hit the delete button" and the pirates' is "I'm not hurting anyone because musicians with hit records are rich".

Are music pirates' reasons for pirating similar to spammers' reasons for spamming? I think they are, and I think it's hypocritical to condemn spam and pirate music.

What do you think?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222427 - 10/29/06 07:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So, you think that we should let the media providers have the power to determine who should possess information and what that information is? This issue is deeper that music...it is really about information. The power to determine who gets what information and how is a dangerous one to wield with a high potential for abuse. The media industry is now trying to do away with fair use laws to insure that you will never buy something just once...no you'll pay every time the data is accessed if they have their way. My philosophy is to er on the side of freedom and life...if this allows piracy in a small segment of society then that is just too bad for big business. Our copyright laws need to be revised severely to give power back to the people, and software patents should be eliminated completely.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6222429 - 10/29/06 07:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Oh yeah, the whole idea of a community of drug users supporting the establishment with their ethical consumption of media is absurd.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6222430 - 10/29/06 07:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Before we get into this, do you think spamming is ethical? If not, why not?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222435 - 10/29/06 07:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That is what spam filters are for. To make sending an email a felony is stupid. This problem can be dealt with in other ways. Spam laws have not decreased the amount of spam sent...similar to how drug laws have not deterred drug users.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222436 - 10/29/06 07:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Now, it occurs to me that most of the arguments used by pirates to defend their behavior correspond closely to the arguments used by spammers to defend theirs. In a nutshell, the spammers' argument is "I'm not hurting anyone because those spammed can just hit the delete button" and the pirates' is "I'm not hurting anyone because musicians with hit records are rich".




I don't really see much of a similarity between those two arguments dude.  :shrug:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6222439 - 10/29/06 07:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are absolutely correct.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222462 - 10/29/06 07:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Personally, I don't consider spam unethical. Annoying maybe, but not immoral.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Silversoul]
    #6222495 - 10/29/06 08:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Now, it occurs to me that most of the arguments used by pirates to defend their behavior correspond closely to the arguments used by spammers to defend theirs. In a nutshell, the spammers' argument is "I'm not hurting anyone because those spammed can just hit the delete button" and the pirates' is "I'm not hurting anyone because musicians with hit records are rich".




i dont see why those 2 arguments are similar. first of all, spammers are hurting people at least a little bit because 1) they are making them have to hit the delete button and 2) they clog mail boxes making it possible to miss important messages.

secondly, when it comes to piracy, another argument is that you're not hurting anyone because you would never have bought the product anyway. for example, if you download an album you would never have purchased, you can argue that no harm was done to anyone in the process. similarly, with software piracy, it can actually help the company sometimes because it increases their userbase meaning more people know and use their program and thus more companies will be willing to purchase it. i have well over a thousand dollars worth of pirated software on my computer and the only thing i can find morally wrong about that fact is that it is illegal. but aside from that, its not hurting the company because it is software which i could have never afforded to purchase in the first place and if piracy didn't exist, i would simply be using inferior programs.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222514 - 10/29/06 08:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

IMO, music is synonymous with beauty and art. Musicians are people too, and of course they need money to support themselves. But when you dedicate your life to art, who the fuck cares about getting rich? It's about sharing beauty and sharing love. As far as I know, artists make enough to support themselves from concerts and albums and merchandise. If they aren't, well that's a different story. But if they are and are still complaining (or their representatives are complaining) about wanting more money, and for people to pay for downloads and such, then that's just greedy.

If an artist makes an amazing album and I hear it after downloading, and I really love it, then usually I'll go out and buy the album.

As it is, I truly think music should be shared, like all forms of artistic expression.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222516 - 10/29/06 08:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with everyone else.I do not see the analogy here.

As far as music piracy goes,there is a big difference between downloading music for your own listening pleasure and making copies and selling them.

I dont see anything wrong with listening to an artists music without paying for it.Selling it for your own personal gain is wrong though.This usually happens more with bootleg dvds.For the most part,people dont pay for burnt music cds.

20 motherfucking dollars for a cd is quite ridiculous.

Piracy hurts record labels,not musicians.


--------------------
Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Deviate]
    #6222517 - 10/29/06 08:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

On the subject of music piracy, I think that intellectual property is a tricky issue. With most property rights, it's a matter of having a right to use what's yours without someone taking it away from you. But when it comes to something like music piracy, you're not depriving the artist of their song. You're simply copying it. One might argue that one should have the exlusive right to profit from their music, but most music piracy does not involve the downloader profiting from the artist's works. I see no reason why one should have a "right" to the notes of a song or lyrics of a song, except for pragmatic purposes. I have seen no evidence that illegal downloading is having a significant negative effect on the music industry, so I'm a little hesitant to condemn the practice.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #6222525 - 10/29/06 08:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

aNeway2sayHooray said:
Piracy hurts record labels,not musicians.




:thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Silversoul]
    #6222529 - 10/29/06 08:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
but most music piracy does not involve the downloader profiting from the artist's works.




My main argument.

:thumbup:


--------------------
Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: dblaney]
    #6222933 - 10/29/06 03:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I believe in what alot of people have said.

The music industry is an overly complex system that is applied to music, which is all about simplicity. I think this is completely evident when you look at the record sales charts, and realize that most the ones dominating shouldnt even call themselves artists.

Music piracy is generally a good thing for music. (compared to the music industry) Its a simplification of the system, which stifles good music. All those who are exploiting the musicians in the industry are now out of the picture. Self promotion is simple with internet. Also this simplification makes the listener rely less on the superficialitys of what surrounds the music, and rely more on the actual content. This is one aspect that would weed out the bad music.

With an essencially unlimited library, musicians are going to have more influences and in turn be BETTER musicians. Along with that It will also weed out the musicians who are not in it for the right reasons. (the dreams of being a mega-millionaire musician) The quality artists however, are not in it for the money, and being able to get by in this type of lifestyle is reward enough for them, so they will stay.

In turn people are going to be forced to listen to good music :eek:, because the bad ones are continually weeded out in this lack of system.

Generally the laws of survival of the fittest will take over in a free music society. And I think that in a free music society musicians could get the money they DESERVE.

Piracy not only makes music BETTER, but makes people more apt to listen to music, since you can download it for free, and music makes the world a better place.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/29/06 04:02 PM)


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6222960 - 10/29/06 03:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is all kind of speculating, and im mostly just highlighting the benifits of piracy. I realize its not near perfect but i think that its an improvement.


Im not quite sure about whether a musician could support himself without cd sales or online sales, and I realize that this is pretty fundamental to this perspective as well. My understanding of the actual industry is kind of limited, i just know its a bit fucked up the way it is.

Its hard to understand my own perspective because its also a justification for the shitload of music i download. I believe i am being truthful in my perspective though.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/29/06 04:10 PM)


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6222999 - 10/29/06 04:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't see how internet music piracy is any different than making copies of your cassette tapes on blanks and giving them to your friends. That was a very common practice for a long time and there were never any legal repurcussions involved.

Was that immoral too?


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223006 - 10/29/06 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Guitar tablature is now deemed illegal. You cant even write down the fret patterns to a melody in notepad without committing a crime.

Fuck them. Fuck that. I could get the entire Led Zeppelin/Pink Floyd/Tupac/etc... album for free by recording it from the radio or shoutcast. Why are they not banned?

Like Hue said, this is an attempt to further domesticate the masses by controlling what they are allowed to ingest. When I was an aspiring musician I was burning CD's and giving them out for free. The desire for others to hear it was greater than the desire to profit from it.

However, I've met many independant musicians travelling to shows with their own vehicles, who mainly profitted from venue percentages and merchandise sales. This is where I say, "Hey! These guys need to eat too... I give them $10 and I get a CD that they poured themselves into. Fair trade." I dont feel that way when buying a shiny new Tool CD from WalMart (despite Tool being one of the best bands in the last twenty years). And so, I have no problems downloading their music. I feel it keeps them in check from completely selling out (what they're trying to do).

Fuck, if you make millions for playing powerchords over a I-IV-V progression - you really have nothing to complain about.

In my opinion, Diploid, a much better analogy would be sports. Take baseball... back in the day when it was a real game, when people didnt play for profit, when they played for fun, respect, and personal fulfillment. Nowadays, they're hired by billionaires, sponsored by Pepsi, and see it more like work than a game. Baseball SUCKS now. This isnt true with everyone in baseball, obviously, but for the most part it is. Take away the politics and profits and what is left? A game. Hopefully, a better, maybe a more heart-felt game. I believe that is a better analogy.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineGlacius
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223111 - 10/29/06 05:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

An interesting subject. Being a musician I was totally against stuff like napster and such, but then I thought about it....


OK first of all, don't you think that the majority of piracy is related to people downloading songs from well known bands?? I am sure that most of the prated music is probably from popular bands. These bands have so much money that I don't think it would really matter if people download they're stuff.

And as for the case of people downloading music from young struggling artists I would think that that would be good for the artist because they're music is getting around and people are listening to it, right?

I believe that the real damage is against the record companies and in my view they make way too much money anyways. And they do it by taking advantage of the musician and the customers.


So thats an interesting view that I had about it.
I still don't really know where I stand on the subject though..... What do you guys think about this?


--------------------
addicted to reason
a hollow understanding trapped me
I cannot see outside but its calling


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223121 - 10/29/06 05:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think I adhere to my own set of rules "right or wrong". Just because society says this is right and this is wrong I don't necessarily agree. I accept the responsibility for my stealing. Nuff said. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223135 - 10/29/06 05:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here's a few more rationalizations for stealing free music off the internet to add to the pile of BS. 

"They need me to download their music for free and listen to it in the hope that one day I might like it enough to buy their CD so they can get the 50 cents the record company will give them a few months later as a royalty check."

"It's better keeping those musicians hungry and thinking about music instead of food or having enough money for too much booze or too many drugs."

"Those rich record companies or artists who have gone commercial can afford for me to download their music.  In fact, those rich bastards deserve it.  Robin Hood was right."

Recently I hired some plumbers to come into my house and install a water filter.  To try to help them get the job done (particularly since they are charging me by the hour) I brought them a ladder (what plumber doesn't carry one?) and a pry bar and a nail puller to help them remove a 2x4 that was blocking a pipe.  At the end of the day I find my $ 16 nail puller has disappeared.  So I call them on my cell phone and get what I like to call a "guilty denial".  "No, I didn't see that, I saw the larger pry bar but if I see it in my tool box I will let you know."  Why am I not expecting the phone to ring?

Now, these are plumbers working for a licensed and bonded union shop making good money doing a job at my house and and they still fucking steal from me.  I wonder what their rationalization was.

"That rich bastard lives in a nice house and can afford it". 
"I can use that nail puller on my dog house project this weekend and this rich bastard probably won't use it again after today." 

Then I thought about all the wrongs I have done in the past that somehow were "right" at the time and just what my rationalizations were or still are.  The pile of BS was large and smelly and I didn't want to dig around in it too much.  :frown:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (10/29/06 05:52 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223138 - 10/29/06 05:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The media companies are trying to set themselves up as the controllers of all information. If you control the flow of information you control the ideas and perceptions of the population...not too cool. Piracy is an act of civil disobedience that should be engaged in until our laws are relaxed a bit so as to favor the individual more.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: adrug]
    #6223143 - 10/29/06 05:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

adrug said:
I don't see how internet music piracy is any different than making copies of your cassette tapes on blanks and giving them to your friends. That was a very common practice for a long time and there were never any legal repurcussions involved.

Was that immoral too?





the difference is either you or one of your friends still has to buy it. with internet piracy, you dont.


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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223154 - 10/29/06 05:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think justice is finally being served with the whole celebrity pay-rate. The mainstream shit is the pirated stuff, causing them to lose money, but still make enough to be wealthy. Doctors should be the ones making millions, not someone who slaps a cheaply written song to a choppy beat and goes platinum. People who support real music are the one's who are actually paying for it, and the real bands are still making money because their stuff isn't all over the place for everyone to grab. I think it's finally balancing out.


Edited by Newbie (10/29/06 05:51 PM)


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: porcupine]
    #6223160 - 10/29/06 05:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Someone has to rip the songs off the cd to get them into MP3 format...which means someone is buying the cd.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6223180 - 10/29/06 05:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If the whole music industry went belly up I could care less. I am a musician myself and I feel that I would be more inspired to go back to creating my own music and listening to musicians in my community if that occurred... Like back in the old days before radio. This would cause a renaissance in music I believe. people would return to art for love and a modest living instead of a quick buck. There are a few artists applying this community based attitude to putting their music online for a small sum and publishing it under the creative commons license which guarantees freedom of information...in other words it is tradeable. I do not see myself wasting money on another cd ever again. Fuck all those greedy bastards in the media business!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223190 - 10/29/06 06:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Be careful with talk of civil disobedience or you risk being named an enemy combatant and ending up incarcerated in a detention camp for many years with no due process and not enough bad food. And certainly no internet connection. Of course you can complain to the guards about individual rights and right after that you will get individual attention.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6223226 - 10/29/06 06:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That has been my experience as well.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Newbie]
    #6223235 - 10/29/06 06:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

'Doctors should be the ones making millions,

:tongue: :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223245 - 10/29/06 06:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Information Technology workers should make the millions...thats a no brainer :smile:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223259 - 10/29/06 06:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We should feel better knowing that many doctors insist on providing the highest quality pharmaceutical products instead of questionable generics. It shows they care about their patients and the cruise that Pfizer took them on was nice too.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223284 - 10/29/06 06:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

And they should be very generous with their friends.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223289 - 10/29/06 06:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Would a couple mill buy your support?.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223293 - 10/29/06 06:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

My first experience with prison life began in the fifth grade when living in London.  We were bused with military kids to a school that had previously actually been a prison for German soldiers in WWII.  Talk about a bad place with some bad karma still around.  :eek:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6223299 - 10/29/06 06:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

My first experience with prison began the day I was born :smile: I am currently planning an escape.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223319 - 10/29/06 06:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223337 - 10/29/06 06:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
'Doctors should be the ones making millions,

:tongue: :thumbdown:




Not the doctors who work to make drug companies money, I'm talking about the one's really dedicated to healing.  I guess their paychecks can't really discriminate, but you know what I mean.  There are professionals out there that deserve wealth more than some singers/dancers do.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Newbie]
    #6223371 - 10/29/06 07:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Relative and subjective. Who decides what and who is important? I get your point but I can't go their anymore. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223399 - 10/29/06 07:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #6223471 - 10/29/06 07:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

20 motherfucking dollars for a cd is quite ridiculous.

You're not compelled to buy it. What's ridiculous is that some people feel if the price is high enough, it's OK to steal it.

Piracy hurts record labels,not musicians.

That's not true. More and more musicians self-publish. Ripping off their music hurts them DIRECTLY. And the ones on a label see lost royalties. No matter how you rationalize theft, if it wasn't given to you, it's still theft. By the way, I copy music too. The difference between us is that I don't kid myself about it. I am a thief.

As far as music piracy goes,there is a big difference between downloading music for your own listening pleasure and making copies and selling them.

Why? Copying music doesn't hurt anyone, or so I keep being told. If you sell it after you copy it, no one's hurt, right? I mean, you already 'own' it once you copy it, right?

software patents should be eliminated completely

Wow, let's all break into the Shroomery servers and steal the database and software Ythan and company have worked so hard to perfect, then start our own Shroomery. For that matter, let's abolish ownership of the intellectual property called Domain Names so we can steal that too. Nobody should 'own' information. :shake:

But if they are and are still complaining (or their representatives are complaining) about wanting more money, and for people to pay for downloads and such, then that's just greedy.

By this reasoning, it's OK to steal from WalMart because they're a big, rich, greedy company and it hurts the company, not the employees. And while I'm at it, it's OK to go to the 'rich' part of town and burglarize houses because, what the fuck, those people are rich, right?


I'm really dismayed (but not surprised) at all the self-serving opinions so far in this thread. Were someone with less money than you to steal your car for the same reasons you're giving (you're rich compared to them), I think you'd side with me (but only in the case of YOUR loss).

As for the tie to spamming, spammers use MY bandwidth without permission to send me advertising on MY nickle. Pirates take MUSICIAN'S music without permission. Very similar in my book: taking something you have not been given.

Also, most of you are not in a business requiring your email to be public, so you see a handful of spams each day. My email has to be public so I get ballpark 150 to 200 spam emails a day depending on the day of the week. That amount steadily grows as my address ends up on more and more spam lists. About twice a year, I have to change my email address, update my business cards, web sites, phone book entry, and send updates to everyone I correspond with, losing a few customers each time. If I didn't do that, my in-box would be getting two or three spams per minute by the end of the year.

Spam filters don't work because if you set them aggressive, you lose customer email, and if you set them lenient, you spend 5 minutes of every hour sifting through shit and hoping you don't accidentally delete a customer order.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223478 - 10/29/06 07:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with the article in that link, but that's a different issue.

If you BUY a CD, you should have the right to copy it for your use on the various devices that play music. What I DON'T think you have a right to do is give a copy to a friend, and even less, put it up on a P2P network for the world to copy for free.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223498 - 10/29/06 07:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You don't think I have the right? :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223525 - 10/29/06 07:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I view taking something you have not been given as theft. And no, I don't think anyone has the right to steal from another.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223542 - 10/29/06 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I view taking something you have not been given as theft. 




You also view accepting something you have been given as theft as well.According to your previous post. :grin:


--------------------
Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223557 - 10/29/06 08:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I view taking something you have not been given as theft. And no, I don't think anyone has the right to steal from another.




Ok that's your point of view. Here's mine. You stole your land (habit) from all the animals that used to live there. Of course they don't have lawyers though. :wink: Survival of the fittest right?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/29/06 08:09 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #6223562 - 10/29/06 08:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The topic is whether or not it's right, not whether or not I should do it. I shouldn't. I stipulate to that.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223576 - 10/29/06 08:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Survival of the fittest right?

From an absolute point of view, I agree with you. However, that view, if carried to its ultimate conclusion, would cause the collapse of society and more harm than good overall.

For society to work, there has to be a middle ground, and I think that middle ground is to behave as if stealing is something to be discouraged.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223596 - 10/29/06 08:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Culture is not our friend. TM

The collapse of society would not bother me. I'm not a firm believer in the evolution of a just society. For me things are how they are and it's the dream of a passion play. This cannot fit in with your views I know. That does not concern me either. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223618 - 10/29/06 08:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

From an absolute point of view, I agree with you. However, that view, if carried to its ultimate conclusion, would cause the collapse of society and more harm than good overall.

I don't see how the competition between businesses isn't survival of the fittest.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6223643 - 10/29/06 08:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The collapse of society would not bother me. I'm not a firm believer in the evolution of a just society.

I guess this is where we differ. I'm an optimist; I agree human societies are incapable of being just, but I DON'T think that injustice is an intrinsic property of societies in general. Just human ones.

I envision other planets where survival competition didn't play so prominent a role in the rise of conscious beings and where truly just societies were given rise by beings more selfless than we are.

It's this aggressive nature evolution built into all living things on Earth that results in this ugly world we live in. It doesn't have to be this way, I think, and it's not this way everywhere, I hope.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223683 - 10/29/06 09:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why do you say I'm not an optimist? I don't think it's pessimistic to be realistic. :grin: I just look beyond the mearly physical for solutions.

And if you think justice is just not in the human realm then I think it would behove you to give your property back to the other animals that might have a chance at it. :grin:

The problem I see with your origional post is that you are subjectively picking and choosing this or that to be  right and wrong. There must be an emotional attachment here for you.

The world isn't ugly as you say either.(pessimist :grin:) When I look at Vertias and the kids and myself I don't see ugly. I see the full spectrum.

As far as how it is on other planets I doubt it's different but I'm willing to take a chance and hope there is room on  your ship. :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223701 - 10/29/06 09:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What exactly is the person stealing? The music is still there. When one person downloads music, it does not take the music away from others.


--------------------


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223710 - 10/29/06 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why do you want to enable large corporations to force us to accept what they want us to have...and drain our wallets while they are at it? The whole entertainment industry could go under for all I care...as a matter of fact the sooner the better.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223800 - 10/29/06 09:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Why do you want to enable large corporations to force us to accept what they want us to have...and drain our wallets while they are at it?

Is it alright to steal from WalMart because they're a large corporation 'forcing' us to buy from them?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223813 - 10/29/06 09:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I realize that my point was pretty minimal, but I would like you to address it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223823 - 10/29/06 09:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If I only have to pay once for a single item...no prob, but the media industry is destroying fair use and trying to ensure that you are eventually paying for each use. According to the media industry I cannot make a backup, but this is covered by law...so they can legally deprive me of this? Bullshit. If they can do as they please so can I. I hope these asshole implode. We are better off starting over with a new paradigm. I fear you will find little agreement with your notions of conformity here...

Don't get me started on Walmart..the one where I live started doing searches as you leave and compare your cart contents to your receipt...they force the door greeters to do this. I have mostly quit doing business with them.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: adrug]
    #6223841 - 10/29/06 09:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Someone has to rip the songs off the cd to get them into MP3 format...which means someone is buying the cd.

This isn't true. Like with movies, music often ends up on P2P networks before it's released to the public, so by definition, nobody has paid for it yet.

Even so, producing music costs money. There are hundreds of people involved. There are artist who make the cover art, engineers who mix the music, advertising and distribution logistics costs, and more most people who pirate blindly without taking a real look at who their piracy hurts never notice.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,679
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223854 - 10/29/06 10:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fuck em all. I hope they all get put out of business :smile: You must consider that many people who pirate stuff WANT these companies to lose money.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223857 - 10/29/06 10:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

but the media industry is destroying fair use

We're not discussing fair use. That's another thread. We're talking about MUSICIANS' music being taken without the MUSICIANS' permission. As I've already stated, many musicians now self-publish and bypass the music industry entirely.

We're discussing you TAKING for free, without permission, something a musician put emotional energy, money, and time into creating. And further we're discussing you GIVING AWAY on P2P networks something you have not been given by the creator of the music.

Don't get me started on Walmart..the one where I live started doing searches as you leave and compare your cart contents to your receipt...they force the door greeters to do this.

So don't buy there. You're not being forced to shop there, why do you give a shit what they do? You sound like the anti-drug lobby getting pissed off because I use drugs and they don't like that. So long as I'm not forcing my habit on them, they shouldn't give a shit.

So, you didn't answer my question: is it alright to steal from WalMart because, like the music industry, they're rich??


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223864 - 10/29/06 10:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fuck em all. I hope they all get put out of business

Including self-publishing musicians? Alright...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223875 - 10/29/06 10:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here is a community of self publishing musicians who make a living from charging modest prices for FREE (free to share and copy) music.
http://magnatune.com/
They are aty least searching for a community based paradigm.
More info:
http://magnatune.com/info/press/coverage/usa_today


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223882 - 10/29/06 10:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Third request:

Quote:

So, you didn't answer my question: is it alright to steal from WalMart because, like the music industry, they're rich??




--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,679
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223893 - 10/29/06 10:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If they tried charging over and over for the same item...I would take what I wanted. I have no qualms about that.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223908 - 10/29/06 10:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here is a community of self publishing musicians who make a living from charging modest prices for FREE (free to share and copy) music.
http://magnatune.com/


Yeah, well, I just popped in there and clicked an album at random. Wanna know the price?:

Ordering a Compact Disc typically costs $12.97 ($4.97 more than the download price). Outside the U.S., the price for a CD is $15.97.

That's right about what you pay for a CD at the store, maybe a little less because they don't have brick and mortar overhead. AND it's more expensive than what you pay for a CD at WalMart, ironically.

Here's the link, if you don't believe me: https://magnatune.com/buy/choose?artist=Ammonite&album=Reconnection&genre=Rock


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223911 - 10/29/06 10:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If they tried charging over and over for the same item...I would take what I wanted. I have no qualms about that.

How many times does a record store charge you for a CD?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223916 - 10/29/06 10:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

By the way, I copy music too. The difference between us is that I don't kid myself about it. I am a thief.





So you steal and admit to being a thief and that somehow makes you better than the person who doesn't consider copying music to be stealing? Perhaps you could elaborate on why being an honest thief is preferable to being a dishonest kind of thief? Granted, honesty is usually the best policy but when it comes to dishonest activities does that still apply?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223925 - 10/29/06 10:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are not allowed to copy modern cds because of DRM. When the CD gets damaged you are expected to buy another one. Most online mp3 retailers are heading for a DRM based subscription model where you pay constantly or the files are disabled.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6223926 - 10/29/06 10:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Lunar, you're WAY off topic. This thread is about music piracy, not about Diploid. If you wanna discuss Diploid, I'm all for it. Start another thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223938 - 10/29/06 10:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There seem to be two ethical issues being questioned in this thread:

1.  Is it ethical to pirate music, either by copying CD's or downloading MP3 files from internet sites?

2.  Is it ethical for recording companies to restrict access to copyrighted works, to charge whatever the market will bear for said works, and to prosecute those who violate copyright laws.

It is not enough, IMO, to consider the consequences of actions when questioning the ethical nature of said actions.  To measure ethics merely by the consequences is to operate on the "adolescent" level of ethical development (i.e. crime and punishment).

The basic definition of "steal" is to take (the property of another) without right or permission. If we decide that stealing is "ethically questionable" (as my ethics prof liked to say), then this would refer to ANY incident of taking property without permission.  Whether that property is material or intellectual is not the issue.  If the property does not belong to you, and you take it, you are stealing it from the rightful owner.

As to the ethical nature of recording companies applying existing copyright laws to the distribution of their intellectual property, this seems fairly clear cut to me.  They have made a deal with the creative artists, paid for their creative work, and now retain the right to distribute that "property" as they see fit.  If they bought a painting, they would have the absolute right to prosecute someone who stole it.

Those who would like music to be available at low or no cost are free to give away their creative works, to encourage artists to avoid recording contracts, and even to provide a pull-out couch for said artists to sleep on while they give away their music.  :wink:

Worthy of further discussion:  does someone else's unethical behavior excuse one's own in return?  What if the recording exec's were totally unethical in their restriction of music being distributed...does this justify or "ethicalize" the act of stealing?

P.S. I copy CD's from the library & from friends, load them onto my computer & into my iPod.  I think it is unethical, I think that it has no consequences for the artists (I woudn't buy the CD's if I could not get them for free), and that is OK with me.

I don't excuse it, I don't justify it by citing huge prices on CD's, I just do it because I want to and I enjoy the music.  :shrug:  I also purchase CD's and MP3's, and enjoy that music just as much.  I don't download music from free sites because I am paranoid about computer viruses.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223949 - 10/29/06 10:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are not allowed to copy modern cds because of DRM. When the CD gets damaged you are expected to buy another one. Most online mp3 retailers are heading for a DRM based subscription model where you pay constantly or the files are disabled.

That sucks, I agree with you, but that's not what we're discussing here.

We're discussing whether or not it is right to take a musicians creative work without his permission, not the technicalities of DRM and its consequences for a damaged CD.

Specifically, to simplify this since you all are having trouble understanding the NARROW topic of this thread: if a musician self-publishes music from which he makes his living, are you in the right by copying his music without his permission, and further, are you in the right by putting his music up on P2P for millions of others to copy without his permission?

Please, stay on topic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,679
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6223957 - 10/29/06 10:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Is it ethical for the recording industry to subvert copyright law with DRM...forcing users to pay over and over? They face no prosecution for this why should downloaders?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223980 - 10/29/06 10:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You're confusing ethics with law. I don't believe that DRM is ethical, but it is legal. (For now.) Laws and ethics often do not agree. (Illegal drugs? WTF??)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223985 - 10/29/06 10:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Alright, since you won't stay on topic, I'll disengage from you now. Feel free to answer my on-topic question, however, if you change your mind.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,679
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223987 - 10/29/06 10:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In any case I predict that the open information model will prevail...even within the next decade. The internet will force it. There have been no successful prosecutions of music downloading...the cases are dismissed right and left...only a few people have settled out of court. The whole system is failing rapidly.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6224002 - 10/29/06 10:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

True...I guess my opinion is colored by the fact that I am used to not even caring about the law...while I do sometimes consider ethics as an appropriate guideline to operate under within society. It must also be said that ethics are merely determined by the culture...they are not universal.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224007 - 10/29/06 10:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It's nice to see P$S really ingaged. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224026 - 10/29/06 10:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Yeah, well, I just popped in there and clicked an album at random. Wanna know the price?:"

I know, but it is DRM free.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224029 - 10/29/06 10:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

We're discussing whether or not it is right to take a musicians creative work without his permission




I would say to the musicians it is all right to take your work without your permission as long as I do it honestly and without remorse. If you don't like it, well too bad come take my computer if you want your songs back. In fact, your songs sucked to be honest with you and I deleted them some time back from my computer and threw out the CDs. Techno disco syntho repeating sound effects like nails on a chalkboard. Good luck getting anyone to actually buy that stuff...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224036 - 10/29/06 10:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I know, but it is DRM free.

Aaac! How many times do I have to say this. This is not a 'DRM ethics' discussion, it's a 'taking music you have not been given' discussion.

I answered.

Where? NONE of my questions are rhetorical. Here are two I can't find the answer to:

How many times does a record store charge you for a CD?

asked because you claim it's alright to steal from WalMart if they tried to charge you more than once for the same thing, which neither WalMart nor music stores do.

And then there's this one:

if a musician self-publishes music from which he makes his living, are you in the right by copying his music without his permission, and further, are you in the right by putting his music up on P2P for millions of others to copy without his permission?

Leave DRM out of this or start a DRM thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224039 - 10/29/06 10:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Music Pirates?



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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224164 - 10/29/06 11:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes it is because I propose that if the media companies can subvert the law so can the citizens. Do you see my point?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224174 - 10/29/06 11:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
True...I guess my opinion is colored by the fact that I am used to not even caring about the law...while I do sometimes consider ethics as an appropriate guideline to operate under within society. It must also be said that ethics are merely determined by the culture...they are not universal.




ethics merely determined by culture? that is merely your opinion. not everyone is a moral relativist.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224185 - 10/29/06 11:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Don't get me started on Walmart..the one where I live started doing searches as you leave and compare your cart contents to your receipt...they force the door greeters to do this. I have mostly quit doing business with them.




This only happens when an electronic sensor on a product was not deactivated at the register. It makes sense that Wal*Mart would take one minute of your time to review your receipt and scan your bags with a handheld sensor to find the product that was not deactivated, as some individuals will hide merchandise in other merchandise and make off with it, which is shrink, which affects the store's profitability, which subsequently affect's the profit sharing of the associates in the store. Not to mention that, when shrink accumulates on the national level, it will either result in higher prices or less ability to execute operations effectively.

Not only that, but the store collects information on this, "failure to deactivate", and the type of products that are not deactivated, so that the cashiers can receive follow-up to ensure that they are not inconviencing the customer. :wink:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6224240 - 10/30/06 12:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No scan..they search. It does not matter what you have. It does not have to trigger the sensor. I was told it was the store's policy. They search everybody...people even get lined up a few back to leave.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224292 - 10/30/06 12:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sure you are not too concerned about the issue, but I would honestly suggest going to Customer Service, writing down the contact information for the district/market manager, and contacting them to complain. If there is no failure to deactivate, then there is no reason for them to interfere with your exiting the store. Inform them that you no longer feel like shopping there when you have been inconvienced in such a manner. If you know others who shop there and have to put up with the shit, I'd request them to do this as well. It doesn't take much contact with a district manager to get something like that fixed. That is bullshit, and it is disappointing to hear that it is occuring. :nonono:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6224316 - 10/30/06 12:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Let's all fix Wal-Mart. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6224360 - 10/30/06 01:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The customer has the power. :grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6224556 - 10/30/06 02:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I actually complained and suggested that this treatment was not correct, and the door greeter said that the manager had decided on the policy. Every time you leave the store they ask to see your receipt and compare it with the contents of your cart. If you are carrying one bag they don't bother you, but if you have more than that you are checked. I am concerned about the issue actually. The Walmarts in nearby towns do not do this...just ours.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6224561 - 10/30/06 02:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"The customer has the power."

I do not think so. About a year ago at the same store I had a tire changed on my van and they lost my van keys. I asked to speak with the manager. I said that losing my keys was inexcusable and wanted to know what they were going to do. I did not yell, but I was very direct. The manager asked me to leave and said that I deserved no apology. They never found the keys. This recent deal about being searched is just too much.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224572 - 10/30/06 02:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I would definitely contact the market manager. In customer service, they should have contact information. It is a policy that does not make sense, and the district/market manager is the person to contact. Once a few customers have called them and complained about the inconvience, I would almost guarantee that he'll communicate with the store manager and the shit will stop.

Also, I meant in the ultimate sense. Sounds like a stupid manager. Would've contacted the district manager on that one as well - it does not bode well when the district manager receives complaints on customer service. Like I said, it depends on whether or not you are interested in pursuing the matter, but that's definitely the most effective avenue through which to do so. I'd hate to think that someone would stop shopping at a store because of terrible management and customer service. :nonono:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6224590 - 10/30/06 02:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I will give it a try. It is always good to know the ins and outs of the politics of an organization. It helps when one needs to "hack" the system. I will complain to the district manager. I know that I am not so important as to expect special treatment, but I do not tolerate abuse if I do not have to. This might be a failing in my character...maybe I am not humble enough, maybe I am too self important, but it just pisses me off.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224615 - 10/30/06 02:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

When mad, get mad. :grin: :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6224650 - 10/30/06 02:58 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I do see that one basic condition for self respect is to not allow yourself to be treated abusively. I believe that this stands on it's own.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224654 - 10/30/06 03:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Not what DJ said. In fact he used tyrants to temper the spirit by taking terribly abusive conditions.  :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/30/06 03:01 AM)


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6224804 - 10/30/06 03:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, but there was also a reckoning for the tyrant. If I can overcome the petty tyrant sooner than later, then it will be sooner. Now, withholding my temper and submitting to the treatment was my tempering of the spirit. My first inclination was to cuss out the poor guy who was being forced to do this...but I did not.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224806 - 10/30/06 03:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

He wasn't forced to search your cart, he chose to.  :wink:


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224813 - 10/30/06 03:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

also a reckoning for the tyrant.

Yeah, fuckin tyrant. :minigun:  :samurai:  :butcher:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6224830 - 10/30/06 03:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, but he chose it under duress. I would have refused myself...and I have refused to search people, in a corporate setting, when given insufficient reason. I bore the consequences. Many people do not understand choice.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6224836 - 10/30/06 03:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That is comforting, but a little overkill just for Walmart...that type of ire should be reserved for the government.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224847 - 10/30/06 03:58 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Duress is in the eye of the beholder.  He may have thought that the prospect of losing his greeter job at Walmart was reason enough to invade customer's privacy.  Someone else would have told them to take that job and shove it.  :shrug:

Lack of knowledge about choices does not negate the fact that we have chosen.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224856 - 10/30/06 04:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

But it would be so easy at the Mart. It's hard to get in to Congress with a machine gun. :tongue2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6224863 - 10/30/06 04:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with what you say. However, I do have compassion for others in such positions...it makes me feel important.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6224876 - 10/30/06 04:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Possibly, but a machine gun can be persuasive.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6225717 - 10/30/06 08:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Diploid have you ever thought of the benifits of piracy??? maybe people are a bit dodgey to your questions but you seem to be just as dodgey about the benifits.

What were leading up to now is a simplification of an already very corrupt buisness, which I believe will lead to a survival of the fittest for the musicians. Music should be a simple buisness, for the musics sake. Simplicity will lead to a world of music that is based on the quality of music, and not the superficialities that come with the system.

is evolution unethical? Maybe, but it is the best answer for the bigger picture.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6226017 - 10/30/06 05:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have a question for you Diploid. Are you involved in the music business? Do you derive your living in any way from music sales?

Just curious. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6226154 - 10/30/06 07:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have a question for you Diploid. Are you involved in the music business?

Nope. I have nothing to do with the music business. The thrust of this thread is to explore the ethics of piracy, nothing more.

BTW, I hate the music industry as much as the next guy, especially after the recent spate of brutish, heavy-handed lawsuits against little old ladies whose grandkids installed P2P software unbeknownst to her.

But stealing from an asshole is still stealing, or so I believe.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6226568 - 10/30/06 10:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes , stealing is stealing for sure. I like to steal sometimes. Sometimes I don't do it for ethical reasons. It's like most of life. We choose this and not that and every person chooses a little differently. From observing this I know that there is no right way or wrong way to be.

If it were up to my principles society would not be the ultra smooth running machine it is today.

Naked and ecstatic in the forest. Fornicating and sharing. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6226871 - 10/30/06 11:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

here is a good compromise for everyone.

I pay 14 dollars a month for a Rhapsody subscription... I can listen to any album I want to.
It is even better than DLing shit because I dont have to wait for it to DL to see if the music sucks or not....

Also, if you dont have a subscription, Rhapsody gives you 25 free listens a month.... Also, Pandora does a really good job of streaming rare music... so If you really want to listen to a band, just to check them out, you dont have to burn their intellectual property onto your hard drive.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6227089 - 10/31/06 12:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Information cannot be stolen.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6227093 - 10/31/06 12:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

All of it is bogged down in limiting DRM.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6227247 - 10/31/06 01:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

people always say you are only stealing from the huge labels, and not the artist, but you are stealing from the artist. They get points on CD's, and for every CD sold, they get a certain percentage.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6227369 - 10/31/06 01:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really care if the artist gets screwed or not. That is their affair...who am I to cry over the problems of millionaires, BUT DRM does concern me because it circumvents my rights.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6227773 - 10/31/06 03:15 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Information cannot be stolen.

So, if I break into your computer and copy your diary with all sorts of embarrassing personal information, including your account of that incident with the chicken, it's alright with you? :tongue:

It's only information after all.

For that matter, I can take your social security number and banking records too (more information), and check out semi-personal information like where you like to shop and the kind of things you buy... so long as I don't use the information to steal money from you.

who am I to cry over the problems of millionaires

Right, so it's OK to steal from Walmart, but not from the corner grocery store.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6227795 - 10/31/06 03:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Wal*Mart is the corner grocery store, as it would be the same effect.

I feel guilty, in that I've only contributed to this thread by making side-points that involve Wal*Mart in some way. :grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6227812 - 10/31/06 03:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Guilt is what this thread is all about. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6228074 - 10/31/06 04:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
But stealing from an asshole is still stealing, or so I believe.



If it's not too much to ask, I'd appreciate it you'd address my comments and questions about intellectual property, and how copying amounts to stealing.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Silversoul]
    #6228260 - 10/31/06 04:51 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry SS. I like you and you're a cool guy and all, but in the past when I've tried to debate points of philosophy with you and you find yourself being painted into a corner by my carefully crafted questions intended to zero in on a flaw in your argument, you summarily refuse to answer.

It's no fair making me do all that legwork, then shutting down when you see where I'm going.  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6228307 - 10/31/06 05:02 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Sorry SS. I like you and you're a cool guy and all, but in the past when I've tried to debate points of philosophy with you and you find yourself being painted into a corner by my carefully crafted questions intended to zero in on a flaw in your argument, you summarily refuse to answer.



If you're referring to debates about mysticism and religion, I try to stay away from such debates because one view is rationalist while the other is transrational. However, on matters of philosophy and ethics, I believe my track record hardly reflects this accusation. This is a subject having nothing to do with the spiritual world or the paranormal, so I think we can both operate within the same paradigm here, and therefore I shouldn't have any problem keeping up a debate.

However, I'm somewhat upset that you seem to see this as a debate between people rather than between points of view. Even if I don't respond to a particular point of yours, others can do so. But so far, my points have gone unaddressed. Would you be willing to respond to them if someone else were to bring up the same points? If you feel that my point is not a valid one, please say so, but I hardly see how it matters who brings it up, so long as it gets addressed. So far, you seem to be dodging it.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Silversoul]
    #6228334 - 10/31/06 05:09 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I believe my track record hardly reflects this accusation.

On this very topic:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4233279#Post4233279

Would you be willing to respond to them if someone else were to bring up the same points?

Up until the point where they stop answering my direct, simple questions, yes.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6228427 - 10/31/06 05:27 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I believe my track record hardly reflects this accusation.

On this very topic:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4233279#Post4233279



I just read through that thread, and notice that I answered all your questions. You may not have liked my answers, but they were answers nonetheless.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Silversoul]
    #6228527 - 10/31/06 05:42 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I accept that your answer to a VERY clear and simple YES/NO question is 'maybe' whenever you find it inconvenient to answer directly, but you have to accept that I will not debate someone who does that. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6229768 - 10/31/06 01:21 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So wait why do they call it pirating and not stealing most the time? Is it because technically pirating isnt stealing? Why take the time to first show an add that says dont pirate music, and then show a commercial that says pirating music is stealing music? Why not simply start with don't steal music, if there is no definitive difference Those commercials make me laugh, theyre alot like those anti-pot commercials.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6229835 - 10/31/06 02:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

While pirating of music may not be completely ethical , neither is any possible way of living in this world. It is impossible to live in a way that never does harm to any sentient beings, and thats simply the world we live in. Thats why we must adhere to our own principles.

As for this crusade on pirating, the vast majority of those behind this movement are not musicians. They just attatch on to this virtuous idea of it being for the musicians sake, and use it to promote their own cause. Maybe those who are pirates are menaces to society, but they arent menaces to the music world.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6229992 - 10/31/06 04:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

So wait why do they call it pirating and not stealing most the time? Is it because technically pirating isnt stealing?

You're arguing semiotics, not ethics.

You can call murdering someone: offing them, clobbering them, wasting them. They're all murder.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230016 - 10/31/06 04:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

While pirating of music may not be completely ethical , neither is any possible way of living in this world.

But taking music that has not been given to you is not an unavoidable consequence of living, it is a deliberate choice. You can't rob a bank and excuse your behavior by stating that unethical behavior is an unavoidable part of life.


As for this crusade on pirating, the vast majority of those behind this movement are not musicians. They just attatch on to this virtuous idea of it being for the musicians sake, and use it to promote their own cause.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. The music industry is run by a bunch of assholes, but as I've said, stealing from an asshole is still stealing.

And that's my main point. Piracy is stealing. Whether you chose to do it anyway is for you to decide, but you should at least do it with both eyes open and in the honest knowledge that you're a thief.

"To thine own self be true", or something like that...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6230093 - 10/31/06 05:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

but my point about that is that there is a difference between taking "information" than taking something that is physical. When you take information, they still have that information. when you take someones orange, they dont have it anymore. I think thats a very important distinction in this debate of ethics.



"You can call murdering someone: offing them, clobbering them, wasting them. They're all murder."

those are all subgenres of murder. What i am saying is that pirating music is fundamentally different then stealing.

And that is why they call it pirating!


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6230102 - 10/31/06 05:31 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Guilt is what this thread is all about. :grin:




And thats what this whole argument of "pirating is stealing" is all about


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230111 - 10/31/06 05:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Hey I'm the one who answered Diploids question the way he wanted. I hope he sends me some trick or treat candy or at least some free music. (Trance/electronica please) :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6230145 - 10/31/06 05:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
While pirating of music may not be completely ethical , neither is any possible way of living in this world.

But taking music that has not been given to you is not an unavoidable consequence of living, it is a deliberate choice. You can't rob a bank and excuse your behavior by stating that unethical behavior is an unavoidable part of life.





About robbing a bank, what your excuse applies to here is the law. Itd be a big mistake to think that societies laws are really based on ethics.

Sorry to say this but pretty much everything you do is going to have a butterfly effect on others, whether they are aware of that or not.

Should people not drive cars because they sometimes hit little animals on the road? Even if it doesnt happen every time you drive your car, it is going to happen sometime no matter how good a driver you are.

I realize that some musicians are going to be hurt by piracy. But making a living making music has got to be one of the greatest things in the world. If they can just get by being a music, they have one of the greatest gifts in my opinion. If they cant get by, get a day job, like the rest of us.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230167 - 10/31/06 05:56 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Let me put it this way. If we always did the completely ethical, not counting the necessities of life, we would be forced to huttle in a corner our entire lives, afraid of stepping on an ant.

What is happening is inevitable, so why not look on the bright side :grin:

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
I believe in what alot of people have said.

The music industry is an overly complex system that is applied to music, which is all about simplicity. I think this is completely evident when you look at the record sales charts, and realize that most the ones dominating shouldnt even call themselves artists.

Music piracy is generally a good thing for music. (compared to the music industry) Its a simplification of the system, which stifles good music. All those who are exploiting the musicians in the industry are now out of the picture. Self promotion is simple with internet. Also this simplification makes the listener rely less on the superficialitys of what surrounds the music, and rely more on the actual content. This is one aspect that would weed out the bad music.

With an essencially unlimited library, musicians are going to have more influences and in turn be BETTER musicians. Along with that It will also weed out the musicians who are not in it for the right reasons. (the dreams of being a mega-millionaire musician) The quality artists however, are not in it for the money, and being able to get by in this type of lifestyle is reward enough for them, so they will stay.

In turn people are going to be forced to listen to good music :eek:, because the bad ones are continually weeded out in this lack of system.

Generally the laws of survival of the fittest will take over in a free music society. And I think that in a free music society musicians could get the money they DESERVE.

Piracy not only makes music BETTER, but makes people more apt to listen to music, since you can download it for free, and music makes the world a better place.




--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230227 - 10/31/06 06:20 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

but my point about that is that there is a difference between taking "information" than taking something that is physical.

I don't agree with you.

The determination of whether or not an action is stealing revolves around whether or not you had permission to take it, not around how much damage it causes the person from whom it was taken.

Your argument is like saying that if I lie to you about something that doesn't affect or harm you in any way, I didn't lie. That's not the case. A lie is a lie, and whether the lie causes material harm or not doesn't change what it is.

Or taking someone's garbage before they throw it out. It doesn't matter that it's garbage, has no value to anyone, and was about to be discarded by its owner. Taking it without permission before it is discarded is theft.

And that what you steal is not physical when you steal intellectual property without permission doesn't change the fact that you stole something.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230238 - 10/31/06 06:26 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

OK, so by your logic, "embezzling" isn't stealing, because they call it something else.  Ditto for "mugging," "burgling," "fraud," "forgery," etc...etc...

:rolleyes:

It is called pirating because that term describes the specific method of theft, harkening back to the days when pirates would board ships at sea, steal their cargo, and re-sell the cargo for a profit.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6230247 - 10/31/06 06:32 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Comon then why did they come up with this or accept this word "pirating".

Why in the commercials do they not just say "Dont steal music!"? First they always have to say pirating music is stealing.

Whether or not theres an official definitive difference between these two things, doesnt mean there is no difference.

Disregaurding the ethics of each, you should admit that they are not the same. maybe according to websters dictionary they are, but the reality is they are not. Do you at least accept that?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230274 - 10/31/06 06:40 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Those commercials make a point of defining pirating as theft because many people, yourself included, DO NOT think that they are stealing when they obtain copyrighted material without permission or payment.

If many people thought that taking money out of their company's bank account was not stealing, the commercial would probably state "embezzlement is stealing."


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6230279 - 10/31/06 06:42 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Good point, you are right.

This whole argument that pirating is stealing i guess is true, based on the fricken dictionary that is. It is a ploy to make the pirates feel bad.

SOOOOOOOOOO in conclusion, yes i think pirating music is unethical. But im not going to sit huddled in a corner and miss out on life because i want to be completely ethical.

we need to weigh the hurt against the benifits and make decisions in life. We cant always be ethical


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230285 - 10/31/06 06:45 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, it is possible to say "this is unethical, and yet I choose to participate in it for my own reasons."  When you measure the potential harm of your actions, decide that the benefits to you far outweigh the detriment to others, and deliberately engage in something you know is unethical, you are taking responsibility for your behavior.

:thumbup:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230296 - 10/31/06 06:52 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

But wait maybe i spoke too fast. Everything you do has an affect on the whole. You are always going to be doing "good" for others and you are always going to be doing "bad."

So is the right thing to weigh the good against the bad, and which ever side weighs more is "Right"?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230324 - 10/31/06 07:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That would be an example of the ethical school of thought called "consequentialism."  Many people follow this school in considering the ethical nature of their actions.

Personally, I do not think that the potential consequences affect the ethicality of actions, but I do consider them when deciding whether to engage in what I consider to be an unethical act.

:shrug:

BTW, right and wrong are moral terms, stemming from religion.  Ethics does not address actions in terms of moral judgment.


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