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Invisiblemofo
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Voting Ethics
    #8956709 - 09/19/08 11:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Candidates A and B are front-runners in a virtual tie.  Candidate Z is a dark horse with much less popular support.  Tom is opposed to candidate A, indifferent to candidate B, and favors candidate Z.  Voting for candidate B would help to work against A, however candidate B doesn't really measure up to Tom's expectations.  Voting for candidate Z would fulfill Tom's preferences for a candidate, however it is virtually out of the question that candidate Z will win, and voting for Z could indirectly help A win.  Who should Tom vote for?


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8956718 - 09/19/08 11:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Z man, no question about it.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8956756 - 09/19/08 11:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Z, then B, obviously. I presume you can vote for as many candidates as you like?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblemofo
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8956771 - 09/19/08 11:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Z, then B, obviously. I presume you can vote for as many candidates as you like?




One vote only.  We're talking hypothetical presidential election here.  And keep in mind, Tom's sentiments are more of a continuum than absolute values.  He approves of about 20% of A's platform overall, 40% of B's, and 60% of Z's.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8956829 - 09/20/08 12:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Then the strength of his vote is dependent on who he votes for; a vote for A or B will have a bigger effect than a vote for Z, thus there is incentive for him to vote for a candidate who wouldn't normally be his first choice.

This means the voting system is flawed and should be replaced.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8956846 - 09/20/08 12:10 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Replaced to what? It is hard to get around this problem when you are voting for one person, since there is only one spot to fill.

Maybe in the case of elected bodies such as congress, parliament, etc it would be more democratic if we didn't use the first past the post electoral system. Something like single transferable vote might work and fit better with the theme of democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8956880 - 09/20/08 12:20 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed, it's been known since the 18th century (the French philosopher Condorcet) that not all voting systems are created equal, and some are more fair than others. To continue to use a system like the one the OP described (first past the post) is against the spirit of democracy.

>Something like single transferable vote might work

It's been used worldwide for over a hundred years :thumbup:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblemofo
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8956907 - 09/20/08 12:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I am sure there are better voting methods available; the single transferable vote sounds good.  However, my question assumes that the current voting system is unchangeable for the present time.  In such a system, what would be the ethically correct decision?

EDIT: sorry, I forget sometimes that there are aussies and a lot of other nationalities represented here at the shroomery.  I guess I'm a typical self-centered american.


Edited by mofo (09/20/08 12:28 AM)


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8956962 - 09/20/08 12:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I still think you should vote for Z. It is an illusion that voting for B is the best choice.

True "democracy" is rule by the people. Our current system is not true democracy but instead follows the theme of democracy. Voting "against" someone doesn't fit that theme at all.

Think about it... rule by the people that mean "you" rule. Our current system is just an approximation of that ideal where you vote for a proxy of yourself to represent yourself. You said Z is the best candidate for you, so you should vote for Z.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8956971 - 09/20/08 12:48 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A, B, and Z will all likely screw Tom over.  He should vote for his best choice...or just write himself in. :grin:


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8956988 - 09/20/08 12:52 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, so assuming first-past-the-post...

You've conveniently quantified Tom's support for the candidates:
Quote:

He approves of about 20% of A's platform overall, 40% of B's, and 60% of Z's.




And, as you've said above, (and because of Duverger's law) it is impossible for candidate Z to win.

If A wins, Tom is 20% satisfied.
If B wins, Tom is 40% satisfied.

A vote for B increases B's chance of winning; it has a measurable effect towards a 40% satisfaction level.
A vote for Z does not affect who becomes president - it will still be A or B - however it may affect future elections if the main candidates start to consider the policies of Z. If the main candidates adopt any of Z's policies it pushes Tom's satisfaction towards 60%. However there is no guarantee of this happening, so the effect of a vote for Z is much lower, and much more difficult to measure.

Therefore, Tom's vote is more powerful, and more likely to improve his satisfaction level, if he votes for B. Anything else is reducing his democratic power and is less likely to result in a government he's satisfied with.

Exceptions:
1. If Tom disagrees with A & B's policies equally. This is pretty unlikely.
2. If his vote is worthless anyway, ie, because of electoral college bullshit.

Summary: first-past-the-post sucks.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8957107 - 09/20/08 01:21 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
One vote only.  We're talking hypothetical presidential election here.  And keep in mind, Tom's sentiments are more of a continuum than absolute values.  He approves of about 20% of A's platform overall, 40% of B's, and 60% of Z's.




given the circumstances, B is the logical choice despite Z being most preferable.

A is least prefered at 20%. A vote for Z is most preferable at 60%. So if a vote for Z serve mainly to take a vote from B, than it is 80%unpreferable + 20%+60% preferable which equates to 0% preferable.

on the other hand a vote for B would 60% unpreferable but 80% +40% preferable. equating to 60% preferable.


thats how i see it anyway, it maybe be a flawed logic but its a flawed system so :shrug:


:


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8957170 - 09/20/08 01:38 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That's a good way of looking at it: the opportunity cost of each choice. A vote for Z has a big opportunity cost - Tom would be foregoing the chance of helping B win the election. Since either A or B has to win, this opportunity cost can be viewed as actually helping A win the election.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8957173 - 09/20/08 01:38 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Tom should vote third party on principle, if a bunch of us did things would actually change.

A and B are basically the same anyway.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Middleman]
    #8957422 - 09/20/08 03:14 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

With that mentality of course Z will never win. If there were many Toms who thought "well i shouldnt even try" of course there is no chance. Vote Z.

Democracy is flawed anyway because all you have to do is tell the public some bullshit about what they want to hear.  Plato knew it then and we still know it now. Not everyone in a democracy has the knowledge to even vote with an informed decision. But limiting their vote because of that is somewhat elitist and also assumes that these "more informed" folk are somehow going to act in the best interest of everyone. Also, I think it's safe to assume that the more education one has (sadly this is equated with money) that the more they'd know because they have the luxury of time to read this instead of trying to put food on the table. Which would make it somewhat classist.

POLITICS IS HARD.


--------------------


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: learningtofly]
    #8957429 - 09/20/08 03:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed, though you didn't actually justify why it's better to vote for Z.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8957479 - 09/20/08 03:34 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Because he doesn't agree with A or B so obviously it would be Z.


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8957482 - 09/20/08 03:35 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Candidates A and B are front-runners in a virtual tie.  Candidate Z is a dark horse with much less popular support.  Tom is opposed to candidate A, indifferent to candidate B, and favors candidate Z.  Voting for candidate B would help to work against A, however candidate B doesn't really measure up to Tom's expectations.  Voting for candidate Z would fulfill Tom's preferences for a candidate, however it is virtually out of the question that candidate Z will win, and voting for Z could indirectly help A win.  Who should Tom vote for?




in hindsight..the correct answer in the 2000 election was "candidate B"...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: learningtofly]
    #8957491 - 09/20/08 03:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
Because he doesn't agree with A or B so obviously it would be Z.




But he only agrees with Z slightly more than B, so it's not so clear cut. Should he take the long shot and go for Z, or be more pragmatic and go for B?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8958101 - 09/20/08 10:49 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Tom shouldn't vote.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8958115 - 09/20/08 10:53 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Candidates A and B are front-runners in a virtual tie.  Candidate Z is a dark horse with much less popular support.  Tom is opposed to candidate A, indifferent to candidate B, and favors candidate Z.  Voting for candidate B would help to work against A, however candidate B doesn't really measure up to Tom's expectations.  Voting for candidate Z would fulfill Tom's preferences for a candidate, however it is virtually out of the question that candidate Z will win, and voting for Z could indirectly help A win.  Who should Tom vote for?




If you feel you must indulge in that system then my advice is always vote for the lesser of two evils. This Z person is a disaster waiting to happen. Just add success and power.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8959004 - 09/20/08 03:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I say vote strategically, not with your heart.  Vote B. 

"Vote your heart and eventually Z-party will be a contender" is a pipe dream. 

The big cultural changes that Z supporters fantasize about will never be the product of an election.  Politics will not save us.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #8959022 - 09/20/08 03:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: I agree.  The only method for making changes which are not currently popular with the majority is grassroots activism.  The political system will always represent the majority, and thus be motivated to maintain the status quo. 

Be the change you wish to see in the world! (And vote to keep the extremists out of power!)

Personally, I would like it if you could vote "no" for a particular candidate, as you can on ballot measures.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8959026 - 09/20/08 03:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Then the strength of his vote is dependent on who he votes for; a vote for A or B will have a bigger effect than a vote for Z, thus there is incentive for him to vote for a candidate who wouldn't normally be his first choice.

This means the voting system is flawed and should be replaced.




QFT.  I can't stand people who only ensure that A will win by voting for Z.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959281 - 09/20/08 04:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

But what if there are more Z supporters out there than you think? Someone said its a pipe dream, but I still wonder.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: adrug]
    #8959288 - 09/20/08 04:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Candidate Z is a dark horse with much less popular support.




Going with the given conditions of the problem, B is a better choice.  But I do agree if there's enough grassroots support, Z might have a chance.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959350 - 09/20/08 05:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If the difference between Z and B are large, vote Z. Even the slightest undermining of ones integrity is a complete undermining.

If the difference between Z and B are negligible, though, of course vote for B.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8959360 - 09/20/08 05:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What?  I'd say the exact opposite.  If the difference between Z and B is negligible, this means Z has more of a chance to win, and since you like Z better, it would make more sense to vote for Z.

If the difference between Z and B is large, it's clear that Z will have a much lower chance of winning than B, and since you don't want A winning, you should cast your vote for B.

Voting based on a concept of idealized democracy and not undermining integrity might have been fine in the time of Jefferson, but this is politics.  Being honest (to one's self) is not always the best policy.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959413 - 09/20/08 05:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


What?  I'd say the exact opposite.  If the difference between Z and B is negligible, this means Z has more of a chance to win, and since you like Z better, it would make more sense to vote for Z.

If the difference between Z and B is large, it's clear that Z will have a much lower chance of winning than B, and since you don't want A winning, you should cast your vote for B.




I was following the rules set in the initial post.

Quote:

Being honest (to one's self) is not always the best policy.




It's unfortunate that you feel that it is prudent to delude yourself.


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8959455 - 09/20/08 05:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have to agree with Redstorm.

If there is only a small difference in B and Z, vote B. However, voting B in this case is dishonest, and it goes against the theme of democracy... you are voting for someone to represent YOU... so you pick the one who you want.

If everyone just voted for who they wanted then you wouldn't have such a large problem...

But this kind of problem is unavoidable if there is only one seat to fill. Maybe if you had 5 presidents instead of one?


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8959556 - 09/20/08 06:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Voting based on a concept of idealized democracy and not undermining integrity might have been fine in the time of Jefferson, but this is politics.  Being honest (to one's self) is not always the best policy.




i agree that through time reasoning rational and methodology of voting is going to change and should, but being honest with your self IS the best policy.

in this case being honest with yourself means realizing that Z is not going to win and that a vote to Z is a vote that could go to the more likely to win B. realizing this means realizing that despite Z being your iclosest to your deals, B is your best choice, because he best approximates them while still having a legitmate chance of wining.


be aware of the circumstances then ask who you should honestly vote for.


--------------------


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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8959646 - 09/20/08 06:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
I have to agree with Redstorm.

If there is only a small difference in B and Z, vote B. However, voting B in this case is dishonest, and it goes against the theme of democracy... you are voting for someone to represent YOU... so you pick the one who you want.

If everyone just voted for who they wanted then you wouldn't have such a large problem...

But this kind of problem is unavoidable if there is only one seat to fill. Maybe if you had 5 presidents instead of one?




how is it dishonest exactly? and what theme of democracy does it defy?
what makes you think that the vast majority of people don't vote for who they want with in the choices given?
if you think that there is this mass of would be thrid party voters out there who step in to the booth and say aww fuck it ill just vote for A or B, you my bfriend have an extremely myopic veiw of politics.


if you want third partys in  the white house you might wanna think about getting more in congress and even state and local government. a thrid party's best bet to gaining the needed exposure and momentum to get in the white house starts from the ground up. VOTE THIRD PARTY WHERE IT COUNTS!!!!!!!!!!!


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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8959795 - 09/20/08 07:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
how is it dishonest exactly? and what theme of democracy does it defy?
what makes you think that the vast majority of people don't vote for who they want with in the choices given?



The original democracy was a rule by the people. There were no elected officials... the citizens made the decisions themselves without help from elected officials. Again there were no elected officials, citizens made all the decisions themselves.

That is what democracy is, rule by the people. Our system in Canada is an approximation of that system. Instead of ruling yourself, you elect a representative that is most likely to do what you would do, if you could.

However, because there are so much fewer positions than there are citizens, some viewpoints will not be represented. That is the reason it is not true democracy, because everyone's viewpoint is not represented in power.

It is supposed to be a fairly good compromise.

The reason it is a good compromise is because if there are a diversity of candidates and you choose the one that suits you the best, it works similar to a direct democracy where citizens rule.

Now here is the problem, the greater the disparity between the citizens and the rulers, the less like a true democracy it functions. For example let's say that you have a population of 250 million citizens and elect 2500 rulers to make decisions. Those 2500 rulers will have a diversity of ideas and will probably be a fair approximation of a direct democracy.

Now let's say you have 250 million citizens and only 1 ruler. This is the furthest you can possibly get from democracy... because anything less and you elect ZERO rulers and presumably have a dictatorship.

The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!


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Invisiblemofo
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Veritas]
    #8959825 - 09/20/08 07:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:

Personally, I would like it if you could vote "no" for a particular candidate, as you can on ballot measures.




Ha! I had this thought before too.  How great would it be to go to a political rally for an incumbent, and during the Q & A get up there and before you ask your question say, "not only did I not vote for you, I voted against you..."


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8959883 - 09/20/08 07:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Now let's say you have 250 million citizens and only 1 ruler. This is the furthest you can possibly get from democracy... because anything less and you elect ZERO rulers and presumably have a dictatorship.




Indeed. Westminster system for the win.


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You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960116 - 09/20/08 08:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!





and i would strongly disagree... the circumstance at hand should dictate how you vote. i've already presenteed this in a mathmatical logic. but i will GLADY vote for my second choice if it helps keep the choice i disagree with most out of office.


X----------------A-----(M)------B-------------*----Z

Xis extreme left.
A is Moderately left
M represents the middle or perfectly moderate POV
B is moderately right
Z is extreme right
* is where you stand on this spectrum


90% of people fall somewhere between A and B and presumably 5% on either side.
so it clear that neither Xnor Z will win the election.
Since B is CLOSER to my ideal i would rather have him in office than A.


what can i do to help get B in and prevent A from getting in?
when you lok at it like that a vote for Z seems futile, and only serves to indirectly help A.



think of  it like a giant game of "TUG O' WAR"

your either on the left or right of the middle"flag". voting for XorZ would be like trying to get that flag on your side by simply pushing on the ground but not actually touching the rope.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8960421 - 09/20/08 09:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
Quote:

adjust said:
The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!





and i would strongly disagree... the circumstance at hand should dictate how you vote. i've already presenteed this in a mathmatical logic. but i will GLADY vote for my second choice if it helps keep the choice i disagree with most out of office.


X----------------A-----(M)------B-------------*----Z

Xis extreme left.
A is Moderately left
M represents the middle or perfectly moderate POV
B is moderately right
Z is extreme right
* is where you stand on this spectrum


90% of people fall somewhere between A and B and presumably 5% on either side.
so it clear that neither Xnor Z will win the election.
Since B is CLOSER to my ideal i would rather have him in office than A.


what can i do to help get B in and prevent A from getting in?
when you lok at it like that a vote for Z seems futile, and only serves to indirectly help A.



think of  it like a giant game of "TUG O' WAR"

your either on the left or right of the middle"flag". voting for XorZ would be like trying to get that flag on your side by simply pushing on the ground but not actually touching the rope.




It's not always that simple as always left or always right. For example, someone with libertarian beliefs has very, very social views and very, very conservative economic views.

There is no real way to compromise these beliefs with parties that are either moderately left or moderately right on both social and economic issues.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8960493 - 09/20/08 10:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I definitely see your point ham and cheese. And I can see that at least mathematically, you would have more of your own ideas reflected in government if you voted B.

What I'm saying is voting B is unethical and a step backward from what it is to be a democracy. In my opinion of course.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960539 - 09/20/08 10:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I would agree with you that it's unethical, if candidate Z was perfect. But in reality, no candidate perfectly fits my views, so choosing a candidate will always be a matter of compromise. So there are no absolutes, and it's not unethical to consider all aspects of a candidate (such as his chance of winning).


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8960555 - 09/20/08 10:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I would agree with you that it's unethical, if candidate Z was perfect. But in reality, no candidate perfectly fits my views, so choosing a candidate will always be a matter of compromise. So there are no absolutes, and it's not unethical to consider all aspects of a candidate (such as his chance of winning).




QFT.  Besides, when did ethics ever factor into politics in the first place? :wink:


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: deCypher]
    #8960565 - 09/20/08 10:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm so glad this thread is in P&S. If it was in the politics forum, every second post would be people yelling "ALL POLITICIANS ARE THE SAME" or endless videos about Sarah Palin.


--------------------
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You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: zouden]
    #8960672 - 09/20/08 11:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think what it comes down to is I don't believe a person should have their representative in government if they have an uncommon or unconventional viewpoint. Through strategic voting, it seems to me that what you are doing is trying to give your own philosophy a disproportional place in the government relative to votes.

To me that seems incompatible with the idea of true democracy, and unethical.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960689 - 09/20/08 11:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
I think what it comes down to is I don't believe a person should have their representative in government if they have an uncommon or unconventional viewpoint.




No, it's more of a matter of pragmatics.  I don't believe in voting if my vote isn't likely to change the way this country is run (which it's not if I vote for the 3rd party candidate who will lose to one of the major two.)


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8960709 - 09/20/08 11:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

hamandcheese said:
Quote:

adjust said:
The way I feel, you should vote the same way if there are 2500 representatives or just 1 supreme ruler, if you believe in democracy as a system of government.

Voting for someone you approve of 40% means you don't approve of most of what they do!





and i would strongly disagree... the circumstance at hand should dictate how you vote. i've already presenteed this in a mathmatical logic. but i will GLADY vote for my second choice if it helps keep the choice i disagree with most out of office.


X----------------A-----(M)------B-------------*----Z

Xis extreme left.
A is Moderately left
M represents the middle or perfectly moderate POV
B is moderately right
Z is extreme right
* is where you stand on this spectrum


90% of people fall somewhere between A and B and presumably 5% on either side.
so it clear that neither Xnor Z will win the election.
Since B is CLOSER to my ideal i would rather have him in office than A.


what can i do to help get B in and prevent A from getting in?
when you lok at it like that a vote for Z seems futile, and only serves to indirectly help A.



think of  it like a giant game of "TUG O' WAR"

your either on the left or right of the middle"flag". voting for XorZ would be like trying to get that flag on your side by simply pushing on the ground but not actually touching the rope.




It's not always that simple as always left or always right. For example, someone with libertarian beliefs has very, very social views and very, very conservative economic views.

There is no real way to compromise these beliefs with parties that are either moderately left or moderately right on both social and economic issues.




Can someone address what a rational person should do in this situation?


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960712 - 09/20/08 11:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
What I'm saying is voting B is unethical and a step backward from what it is to be a democracy. In my opinion of course.




all depends on what ethical basis you abide by and what kind of democracy we're talking about.

assuming you mean a direct democracy... which is ineffeicent and impractical usually

just remember the only person who can 100% coincide with and represent your thoughts and ideals is yourself, but half the time we don't even know what we think.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8960723 - 09/20/08 11:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Can someone address what a rational person should do in this situation?




flip a coin :evil:


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8960766 - 09/20/08 11:31 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

>Can someone address what a rational person should do in this situation?

I actually started writing something but my browser crashed.

>There is no real way to compromise these beliefs with parties that are either moderately left or moderately right on both social and economic issues.

I see what your saying, but I disagree that there's no way to compromise. If you ask (say) a professed libertarian which candidate they would prefer out of the 2 mainstream candidates, all but the most fanatical would eventually admit that they do have a preference for one over the other.

Of course, the whole problem is drastically reduced if a preferential system like single-transferable-vote is used, as we discussed at the start of the thread.


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                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Redstorm]
    #8960782 - 09/20/08 11:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Some philosophies cannot be placed on an imaginary tug o war rope of opposing left and right wing ideas. In that case there is less strategic advantage to voting for someone else.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8960889 - 09/21/08 12:00 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

perhaps there should be 2 "tug O wars"

one for social issues and one for economic.

it gets a little hazzy when one has more "wieght" than the other  but none the less chose who closest approximates your ideals between the two. plot the canidates on this graph then chose whoevers line is shorter when drawn to where you stand.

you can even argue there should be a third perhaps, possibly the need (or lack there of) of government itself) but idk if you don't believe theres a need for government whats voting gonna do?:shrug:


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8965608 - 09/21/08 11:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think one thing has become clear in this thread; the need for election reform in the United States.  I must confess, I didn't really have a great awareness of the different voting methods available to a democracy, and I sure didn't think it made that much of a difference in the results.  I think this issue deserves to be placed amongst the most important issues to fight for.  I found this organization, http://fairvote.org/, ; I don't know too much about them yet, but the site seems useful.

Obviously, in a Single Transferable Vote/ Instant Runoff type system, the ethical dilemma I presented in this thread would be nonexistent.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8965621 - 09/21/08 11:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If you're interested in learning more about electoral models, proportional representation is one used in many parliamentary systems. It's got a lot of good things going for it including the inclusion of many minority parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8965776 - 09/21/08 11:37 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
I think one thing has become clear in this thread; the need for election reform in the United States.  I must confess, I didn't really have a great awareness of the different voting methods available to a democracy, and I sure didn't think it made that much of a difference in the results.  I think this issue deserves to be placed amongst the most important issues to fight for.  I found this organization, [url=http://fairvote.org/, ]http://fairvote.org/, [/url]; I don't know too much about them yet, but the site seems useful.

Obviously, in a Single Transferable Vote/ Instant Runoff type system, the ethical dilemma I presented in this thread would be nonexistent.




What becomes clear to me is that the reform that is needed is in the human heart and mind. IMO the place to start is for everyone to refuse to participate in this corrupt fiasco.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Icelander]
    #8965799 - 09/21/08 11:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That won't accomplish anything.  Already, only a minority of eligible voters actually vote, and and no one cares.  Its funny how large voter turnout is more likely to make the news.  Not ha ha funny tho...


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8965818 - 09/21/08 11:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well like me we would have to not vote because we do care and let it be known in other ways also. But I lost my high hopes for change a while ago. Really taking a look at history and then at my friends and acquaintances had a lot to do with that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8965878 - 09/22/08 12:06 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i agree that the current system needs reform. but keep in mind that every voting system is going to have some flaws. i like the idea of a STV type of sysytem but im sure it has its drawbacks. and its certianly not something thats gonna change over night. we need to change it some how... how bout starting small like getting rid of the idea of winner takes all states. it just seems unfair to me. the EVs shopuld be more proprotionat to the actual voter make up.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8965884 - 09/22/08 12:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

People have been complaining about the electoral college for as long as I've been alive and long before. It's a working part of a corrupt system.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8965895 - 09/22/08 12:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
i agree that the current system needs reform. but keep in mind that every voting system is going to have some flaws. i like the idea of a STV type of sysytem but im sure it has its drawbacks. and its certianly not something thats gonna change over night. we need to change it some how... how bout starting small like getting rid of the idea of winner takes all states. it just seems unfair to me. the EVs shopuld be more proprotionat to the actual voter make up.




Do you realize how utterly unlikely that is? The system will not fix the system.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8966023 - 09/22/08 12:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

lets compare the current system to what im talking about.

given that

A gets 50% of the votes
B gets 35%
C gets 15%

the out come in a 3 EV state would be
A =3
B=0
C=0

A did win the majority but an equal amount of people go un represented.

IMO it should break down more like this
A= 2
B=1
C=0
granted yes 15 percent still go un represneted but that much better than 50%. and since they have Only 3 ev its is only a small fraction of the general populus

lets suppose the same results in a larger state like florida with 27 EV
100/27 comes out to 3.703rep so every 3.7 or so% of votes = 1 EV
gets tricking with remainders but its entirely workable

A= 50%/ 3.7=13.51 so for now we'll give him 13
B= 35/3.7= 9.45 = 9
C= 15/ 3.7= 4.05= 4

any fractional EV would then be given to the top vote getter

so
A=14
B=9
C=4


in the event that no canidate reaches the needed 270 EV to win before it is sent to congress to decide. first the last place finisher from each state would be eliminated and the EV redistrubuted accordingly. if that still doesnt decide it eliminate the next lowest vote getter (assuming there are more than 3 who recieved enough votes to recieve an EV)



it just seem to better represent the makeup of a state rather than the winnertakes all idea, with out eliminating the EC all together which leaves minorities even less represented.

sorry if im a little unclear... much0 tiredo. if you need me to elaborate id be happy to after class tomorrow.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8966174 - 09/22/08 01:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The system will not fix the system.




--------------------
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                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8967247 - 09/22/08 10:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Quote:

hamandcheese said:
i agree that the current system needs reform. but keep in mind that every voting system is going to have some flaws. i like the idea of a STV type of sysytem but im sure it has its drawbacks. and its certianly not something thats gonna change over night. we need to change it some how... how bout starting small like getting rid of the idea of winner takes all states. it just seems unfair to me. the EVs shopuld be more proprotionat to the actual voter make up.




Do you realize how utterly unlikely that is? The system will not fix the system.




Word


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: mofo]
    #8967306 - 09/22/08 10:46 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
That won't accomplish anything.  Already, only a minority of eligible voters actually vote, and and no one cares.  Its funny how large voter turnout is more likely to make the news.  Not ha ha funny tho...




Actually, a majority of the Voting Age Population in the U.S. votes.  If we adjust the VAP figure to account for the 7 - 10% of the U.S. population who are ineligible to vote (non-citizens, prisoners, etc...), a large majority of U.S. citizens vote.  This is particularly true for presidential elections.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #8967623 - 09/22/08 12:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

adjust said:

Do you realize how utterly unlikely that is? The system will not fix the system.




And that means we shouldn't try to fix it? i never said it wasn't unlikely, i even mentioned that a change like this will not occur overnight, but that doesn't mean it won't or can't occur. ratifying amendment is not easy, but its not neccascery to solve this problem. it could do it, but there are other means. colorado is talking about changing its system to allocate EVs and Maine and Nebraska have systems that are different to the strict winner takes all EVs of the state. A state by state change seems to be the better path in this.

system may not fix the system but the system can be fixed.


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8967665 - 09/22/08 12:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

And that means we shouldn't try to fix it?

Yes indeed. Instead we should try and fix ourselves and if most of us accomplished this the rest would  take care of itself. Without fixing the flaws in ourselves we will and have continually recreated a badly corrupted and flawed system.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: Icelander]
    #8967713 - 09/22/08 01:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

thats a nice idealistic comment, however the fundamental flaw of your ideologue assumes that human nature is perfectible. are you suggesting that all efforts to reform the laws that govern the people should be suspended until the people can "fix themselves"?


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Re: Voting Ethics [Re: hamandcheese]
    #8968289 - 09/22/08 03:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I never said perfect.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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