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OfflineOctavius
Stranger
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 159
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Democracy =! Slavery
    #5482680 - 04/05/06 12:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

They build jails, they throw people in there or they take your money.

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: Octavius]
    #5482698 - 04/05/06 12:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

huh?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
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Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: Octavius]
    #5482793 - 04/05/06 12:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: Octavius]
    #5482807 - 04/05/06 12:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Could you please be less vague?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
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Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: dblaney]
    #5483124 - 04/05/06 02:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

its so hard to get through everyones brainwashing on this subject octavius that I havent even tried yet, but here goes anyways

Alright early civilization had slaves right? They worked them hard, but most early slaves really didnt have that bad of a deal. The jews during their captivity in egypt is an example. These guys were given land and cattle, a home with more than one room, and most importantly the protection of society.

lets look at americas middle class. Well you say they are free. Wrong. Its pretty hard to maintain middle class life without a good Job, you lose your job if you break the law, therefore you have the choice of risk of losing everything or obeying the law as simply the way things are. there is no freedom in this.


The theory I have so far is that all governments throughout all time's sole purpose has been controlling the mobs. People got smarter and the dictators and tyrants have a harder time getting away things so they change directions. "you'll catch more flies with honey" applies here I think. They give us our "freedom" let us move around a bit more. Let us think we can change anythign we want through the system, but in reality it doesnt work that way. The systems number one goal is preserving teh system, so how can it work for us, the peoeple who choose in their freedom to live outside of the system? It cannot.

It boils down to this. They say we are all free, but we are only free when are doing things their way. if we disobey we are labeled criminals, which serves them three purposes, first they put us all in a visible location so that we will scare the weaker sheep into obeying the law, two money, and three slave labor(community service). We put 21st century terms on the same old ideas, and lo and behold the populace is blind to it.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: blaze2]
    #5483148 - 04/05/06 02:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with most of your points. I'd be interested to hear your vision of an ideal society.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: dblaney]
    #5483250 - 04/05/06 03:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

mmmm am i that much of an outlier that i understand exactly what the first post of this thread is talking about?

i mean there are many ways of breaking free of conditioning, psychedelics are the most blunt and quickest.... and they are illegal... the legal ways are HARD like spending years in meditation, because how do you do that if you are conditioned to always fret over your finances? Your reality is NOT your JOB or the NUMBER you have been prescribed... it is not the career and lifestyle that you were positioned into .......

we are enslaved by the machines and monies we peddle...... we are kept away from our inner divinity... and religion is actually used as a tool to make this all the more worst (i.e. in America this religion is Christianity but it doesn't have to be Christianity it could be anything)

and what is the price for wanting a less biased more free flowing perspective? It's .... being in a jail cell.

I just heard today from my teacher that the ONLY thing that DARE succeeded in was lowering people's self esteem... they still smoked tobacco just as much, weed just as much, drank just as much, but somehow their self esteem was lower having been to dare.

Maybe that's because society breaks your self esteem down as you age (it was comparing 6th graders to 20 year olds) or maybe it's becasue people don't like being told what they can or cannot do, but I find it interesting that the WAR ON DRUGS is the most LUDICROUS ABSURD ATROCITY AGAINST BASIC HUMAN FREEDOMS THE WORLD HAS SEEN SINCE ACTUAL SLAVERY and yet we pour BILLIONS INTO!!!!

Dude I swear.... give me a few hundred million dollars a year, and I will go around, find sad people, talk to them and befriend them, and if they say "oh my family just lost our home" I would buy them a home. And if they said "oh we can't afford to care for our grandpa so he's in a retirement center and being treated miserable" I'd go and give htem enough money to take care of them on their own and get him some good care.

I'd go and fix thousands of lives, if I had the time.... with just a small percent of the money you SQUANDER AND WASTE ON ABSOLUTELY NOTHIGN!!!!!~

Quick a long haired mellow fellow having a good time, he must be in jail!!!!!! Quick quick quick quick .... let's take away his opportunity to get educated!

I mean if you guys are this wasteful with money, why don't you just keep the money and pad your pockets with it instead of throwing it away.... and into ............ lord knows what.

DRUG WAR = WAR ON HUMANS
DRUG WAR = SLAVERY
DRUG WAR = FASCISM
SUPPORTERS OF DRUG WAR = TYRANTS
MANIPULATED, BRAINWASHED, UNABLE TO THINK CRITICIALLY, BLINDLY ACCEPTING AND SOMETIMES DIRECTLY ENCOURAGING SOCIETIES MOST EVIL ATROCITIES.

this is.... the thread I was tyring to make. That we aren't free, that suppporting the drug war is like supporting slavery.... that if you think you are a just defender of THE AMERICAN WAY you probably HATE THE AMERICAN WAY, are doing exactly what SOCIETY TELLS YOU TO DO, and DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT FREEDOM because you support the prohibition of substances.

THINK ABOUT THIS.

MARIJUANA IS A HUGE CASH CROP, GENERALLY IN THE TOP 3 FOR MOST STATES....... this weed... this WEED should be WORTHLESS! it will grow anywhere, it is easy to cultivate... by making it ILLEGAL you give CORRUPT AND EVIL PEOPLE an EASY WAY of INFLATING A VALUELESS SUBSTANCE into the nations BIGGEST COMMODITY...... you support terrorism by making drugs illegal! Where the fuck do they get their money from!!!???? FROM MANUFACTURING OPIUM... now if opium were LEGAL that is LEGAL GOVERNMENTAL MONEY TO BE USED FOR RATIONAL THINGS.... but IT IS IN CONSTANT DEMAND and by saying "no we will not fulifill your desires and we will make it illegal for your desires to be fulfilled" YOU GIVE A GREENLIGHT TO ANY CRIMINAL MASTERMIND IN THE ENTIRE PLANET TO MAKE SHITLOADS OF MONEY BY SIMPLY GROWING NORMAL ORDINARY PLANTS.

and you ENSLAVE third world peoples by creating drug markets where they have to work for vicious drug lords to make money.

IT IS THE BIGGEST HYPOCRISY I HAVE EVER SEEN AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER TO LAUGH AND GO ALONG FOR THE RIDE OR TAKE UP A SOAP BOX AND YELL THROUGH A MEGAPHONE UNTIL MY VOCAL CHORDS FALL OUT!!!

the drug war is evil and the drug war is slavery.

and YOU DONT'R EALIZE IT.... you guys on the shroomery do... BUT YOU DON'T... whoever it is that this is directed to... you don't!

wake up man! wake up.

the costs of comitting a crime cannot exceed the harm done.... you damage your lungs and you deserve to be in jail? Better lock fatty asses up for going to McDonalds then, they kill themselves with fastfood...

or you fuck your life up through heroin addiction? Well gee how do you deserve to be in jail? YOU'RE ALREADY IN YOUR OWN PRISON THROUGH ADDICTION..... I mean do you take someone that attempts suicide and throw them in jail where their self esteem will further deteriorate? Because suicide is a crime! What the fuck!

You're going to fine me $500,000 for saying fuck on TV... this is facism... slavery... and the notion of AMERICA BEING A FREE COUNTRY IS RIDICULOUSLY FALSE AND AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS PROPOGANDA!!!!

I hope...........

I hope to God. Because there msut be divinity ... I see it in me and I see it in all humans... it comes from acceptance, tolerance, peace, non-violence and COMMUNICATION..... that this country frees itself from itself...

people are not inherently stupid, they are just conditioned to be that way.

it's sad..... you know............... THIS IS NOT A FREE COUNTRY, WAKE UP AMERICA. THIS IS NOT AMERICA. AMERICA AND FREEDOM ARE DOUBLESPEAK. FREEDOM ISN'T FREE.

that doesn't mean freedom is expensive, or that you need to join the army, it means that... buddy.. you aren't free.

THE DRUG WAR KILLS COMMUNICATION. you go up and talk about drugs and school moms go YOU WANT OUR CHILDREN TO DIE!!! and you try and get on the media are you are censored (and this happens okay! this is not paranoid rambkling its documented fact, superbowl commercials have been denied, bus companies denied funding for airing legalization ads.....)

so the only way for ideas to flow is for them to flow out of the mouths of people that aren't listened to because they are labeled NIGGERS.... they are SCARLET LETTERMAN.... they are LOONS... they are DRUGGIES.

DRUGGIE = NIGGER. IT IS A NEGATIVE LABEL THAT DEHUMANIZES YOU, MAKES YOU NOT WORTH FREEDOM, MAKES YOUR KNOWLEDGE MOOT AND USELESS.....

druggies are being rampantly discriminated against long after slavery ended, long after women got rights.... long after the black man got free and got the vote.... if we care so much about LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.... where the fuck is the marijuana, the cocaine, and the LSD? It should be IN STORES... or at least it shouldn't put you in jail for posession of it.......

fuck the drug war guys.

It is slavery......

sorry for using racial slurs but if you dont' see a paralell between the stigmas attached to "druggie" and "junky" and even "pot-head" .. if you don't see how that paralells the use of the N WORD.. or any other epithet of ignorant conditioned hate speak.... complteely blocking the mind from being free by running not off of what you believe, but what society tells you to believe..

then please think on it.

I don't care if you're black or asian or a cokehead, it matters what's on the inside.... just like MLK said... the content of your HEART.. you can be an amazing person and be a cokehead or you can be a lousy hateful thief.... you can be a thug and an ignorant black man, or you can be an amazing individual who just likes rap music...... you can be anything and everything.

we are capable of all imagined and all conceivable.

it's time to stop discriminating... who cares what the fuck you are! If a man beats his wife it doesn't matter if marijuana is in his system... because HATE AND INGORANCE IS IN HIS SYSTEM...... dont' test people for drugs, test them for being fucktards..... if a man jumps off a building on LSD... it's the man doing the jumping...

can LSD be very dangerous!!!! OF COURSE!!! DRIVING IS VERY VERY VERY VERY DANGEORUS, SO IS SKYDIVING...... SO IS BUNGEE JUMPING, SO IS EATING AT MCDONALDS.......... why forbid LSD? Because it expands conscious, opens the third eye and the higher chakras.... and society is not ready to let people become enlightened......

it's sad.

It's sad indeed.

All hail the netherlands man.... all hail them. peyote, mushrooms, weed.

yes most drug users may be irresponsible, it's only becasue most humans are irresponsible. it doesn't matter if they are drinking, smoking, tripping, fucking, driving, bicycling, lecturing, reading, watching tv..... it's all the fucking same!

you want my piss in a cup! I want your ....... ummm...........I want your ............... ? Well you can't have my piss in a cup! I'm more than willing to work hard at a good job and be a friendly person to my customers FUCK YOU you want me to piss in a cup so you can be racist against molecules of THC, ?????? THC!!!! THC is safer than alcohol you discriminatory bastards.

we need to be in the streets by the millions demanding peacefully for the government to allow us the freedoms it promised by failed to deliver......

FUCK THE WAR ON DRUGS.

you say i can't be free? Then how is this a free country! Fuck the police. They are great souls for wanting to serve their community, and yet their own system is corrupt... the poliec should be leading the revolution against this nation's corrupt ways.... they should be on OUR SIDE.......... but it's not really about them... if you want to save lives and be a cop, you have to ruin lives too because your nation is evil in some aspects of legislation....... so the police are all around good people. Don't hate them. Don't worship them.... just see, hey that guy looks like a great human...... or see "hey that guy looks like a power crazed jock" ... either way..

love will set us free.

not hate.

if we lash out with violence.

they will destroy us.

if we are simply satellites of truth and peace..... people will realize how shitty they are treating us. destroy the preconceived notions of "druggy" ..... shock everyone by letting them know that, yes, you like psychedelics, and yes, your life is fine and you are an upstanding citizen.

win the war with information.

IT IS NOT A WAR ON DRUGS, IT IS A WAR ON PERSONAL FREEDOM.

.... ah but who listens to this? Who who whow how hwowhowhwohwohwohwowhowhow listens? This is the shit you need to yell from soapboxes, not post on forums...... but no one wants to be a martyr for a cause... for all we know the government killed Martin Luther King.......

and ... organized crime... ORGANIZED CRIME WANTS DRUGS TO BE ILLEGAL... so people are afraid to legalize because they might get a talking to from the mob.

it's fucked up man.

when corruption runs a nation, a nation is not free. but the issue is not the nature of nation, it's the nature of man.

man is a greedy beast.

i hope for evoultion..... spiritual evolution... opening of heart chakras, higher chakras..... alignement to positive vibes.... abandoning the media..... getting back in touch with nature, helping the environment out... treating your fellow man nice..

working for the sake of working, not for the sake of money. holding more value over being a cheerful coffee shop attendant than being a slave to a faceless corporation that exploits the third world.

being happier with a little bit of money than being miserable yet thinking you are happy with millions of dollars.

being free.

freedom isn't free.

freedom isn't free at all.

if this is freedom... what is THEIR idea of slavery?

Wake up minds.

wake up minds.

wake the people up.
-----------Unknown.

by the way two rights don't make a wrong, even if you're a murderer IMO you dont' deserve to be treated like shit and abandoned on by the rest of society. obviously you have to be separated so you can't hurt people.... but this prison system!! This prison is inexplicably and simply evil..... people LUST AND GET OFF on the fact that right now someone is being raped in jail... they're like "yeah that guy deserves it for touching kids" who cares what the fuck he deserves, do you realize that because you focus all your hatred on them, that you open the gateway for numerous innocent people to suffer this hate?

By hating criminals and making punishments harsh, severe, cruel, and evil, you aren't punishing criminals, you are punishing innocents! Keep the prisons safe... keep them less like "prisons".... treat them like human beings...... don't put people in there that don't belong. If our nations motto is let 10 guilty go to protect 1 free person, then why is the prison system so terribly horrible for those who find themselves in it, guilty or not?

If you lust over the fact that people are suffering in prison, you are the same kind of person that you are judging. These guys go out and ruin someone's life, and yes that cannot be accepted... but then you go out and ruin their lives and the lives of any innocents that fall into prison.

What you have is human beings getting off on the suffering of other human beings, but using labels to make it okay. You don't think the rapist might say "hey this chick deserves to be raped" you don't think some of them believe that? How are you any different than him by thinking he deserves to be raped.

let he is without sin cast the first stone. Judge not lest ye be judged.

If a cop has to shoot someone in self defense it's one thing, but once someone is in CAPTIVITY they deserve to be treated freely.... it's just common sense.

By hating criminals, you in essence lower yourself to their stature.... there is very little separation in my eyes.... you have human beings wishing suffering to other human beings.... we only create crime by hating criminals and thinking us better than them.

COLUMBINE showed us this... okay? You think someone isn't worth being lvoed, and you dehumanize them and label them and poke at them.... they FLIP OUT! And they kill people.... WE CREATE THESE MONSTERS? Okay. This has to be understood...... and yet when we create them, we turn around and judge and destroy them.
Freddy Krueger..... take him as an illustration.
He committed a crime. He was punished for it severely.
He is the archtypal shadow figure. He literally EXISTS IN YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS and MURDERS YOU.... this message is .... extremely potent... the more you reject and hate and persecute another human being, even if he has wronged you.... the more you hate and persecute yourself.

we're all in this shit together, we shouldn't let people become morally bankrupt in the first place, we shouldn't create the murderers and the haters..... but to say "nope you aren't a human anymore" is absurd. the killer in me is the killer in you. we all have a killer in us. Some are in environments that lets it run rampant while others never have such circumstances.

by rejoicing in others suffering regardless of their deads you bring tremendously bad karma upon yourself......

If a man hits you, turn the other cheek.

Should they walk free? No.... no.....if they are a threat certainly the treat has to be removed... but the prison system is sick and disgusting.... look what America has buried in its shadow. It's not pretty. And it's right in our faces.... and yet we support and nurture it like a blessed child. And it .... in turn, destroys us even more.

you know. it's all pervasive..... sex is banned on tv almost.... violence is acceptable. this ... is Rome.

Love.

love.

love.

that's the only fucking way....... don't accept violence. Every rapist was an innocent infant once, and if put in a different environment would have never developed the wiring to have done what they do.

CLUTCH IT LIKE A CORNERSTONE
otherwise it all comes down
unable to forgive the scarlet letterman
we're sinking deeper
justify denials and clutch em to the lonesome end
LET GO!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (04/05/06 03:28 PM)

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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
Informer
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 208
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: leery11]
    #5483306 - 04/05/06 03:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Wow one of the worst posts I've read in a while.
Quote:

They say we are all free, but we are only free when are doing things their way. if we disobey we are labeled criminals,



Do you want murderers and theives to go free? I don't get your point. The people in government are voted in by the people. We have every right in a democracy to have them repealed from office, study up on your constitution. I think you are generalizing the term democracy with the United States, which really isn't a pure democracy. A democracy is the best form of a government  for a large cilization. Period. A communist state or socialism may be good for a smaller nation but for one of our size a democracy works if put in correctly. Saying the drug war is slavery is just rediculous, don't kid yourself. Go and read the book "Freakonomics" it will explain a little bit about cocain which if let to be sold freely would turn our nation into hell. Mabey they go overboard on the war against drugs like shrooms and lsd but on other drugs like cocain, heroin, and meth they are doing the right thing. :thumbdown:


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"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
Informer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 208
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483319 - 04/05/06 03:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

another thing- mabey they start the war on drugs to prevent young people from getting addicted. This is exaclty why they throw somone in jail for selling cocain or even using it. Why let one person fuck up the lives of many more?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483366 - 04/05/06 03:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Friend read between the lines. He realizes something true, you are simply misunderstanding. Perhaps he uses different terminology which makes you interpret something totally different.

What he is saying is true. People are conditioned to be a certain way, and punishments and sanctions are put in place to keep them from deviating. Even if they aren't criminal sanctions, difference is not encouraged.

Look at the homosexuals, though they are allowed to be free of prison (though I must iterate that in many places sodomy is a crime and FAGGOTS have been put in jail! [using the word to stress the severity of discrimination, I like gays just fine] ....... even though they aren't criminally sanctioned.... they are rampantly discriminated against and many states have passed laws which are nothing but discriminatory to say "you aren't as good as us" ..... banning civil unions in some cases saying "you don't deserve even the same rights as normal co-habitating couples.

What he is saying, you may not agree with the way he said it but he's simply trying to paint a portrait of the state of discrimination and injustice that we live in.

We are NOT free to vote because we are conditioned who to vote for through fear mongering.

If we were truely free to vote why do a vast majority of the populus only vote democrat or republican? In every single way imaginable apathy and inaction is encouraged by the social insttitutions that be.

Do you disgaree? This democracy doesn't work. Even when a majority of people want something it is often blocked by the government.

Did you read my post? I have the answer to your cocaine question within it. You have to read it entirely. Such issues cannot be debated with simple answers.

The damage of the drug war destroys more lives than drugs ever do. Statistics prove it. Common sense proves it. Altruism proves it.

The black market SELLS TO KIDS. Conveniance stores don't. Does that register with you? If you sell cocaine in stores, kids will at least have to get a fake ID to get it. If you make it illegal people will go sell drugs to their classmates, and they obviously don't care about the harm.

People like QUALITY CONTROL in their products. It's harm reduction. Instead of containing a fire you are letting it rage freely and throwing gasoline on it.

Cocaine is less dangerous when you don't get shot trying to buy in the process, and when you know that you are getting a product of a specific potency, and when the ALLURE OF BEING A REBEL IS GONE.

You're supporting organized crime. The people that sell drugs to kids DO NOT HAVE A MARKET if drugs are legal! Fucking seriously dude. The drug war does not save that many lives. I want people who use cocaine to be able to get all the support and treatment they need, to not be socially ostracised, to not risk being murdered by their drug dealers or robbed for their products........ and I don't want ANYONE having to become a drug dealer and risking great harm to themselves for getting involved in the coke business.... the only way to alleviate all these evils is to let the goverment tax and regulate quality and age of distribution.

In the Netherlands, adults smoke just as much weed as they do in America. But get this, children smoke it LESS in the Netherlands than they do in America? WHY? Because it isn't cool! It's normal. It's done responsibly... it's just an ordinary thing and there is NO counter-culture attached to it no "hey man fuck ... let's get stoned it's so awesome to be a rebel and break the law..... yeah fuck school".....

also, once brought to the black market, a product is FLOODED everywhere it can be. In every single town in the entire nation, people want cocaine. This ensures that the cartels will do their best to have dealers in every city, and average joes will become dealers and move coke in their cities. This puts coke, quite literally, flooding the streets, completely unregulated....

the answer to keeping kids safe from guns is to put gun locks on them. The answer to keeping them safe from drugs is to REGULATE drugs.... when the government makes drugs illegal it's like they are basically just throwing cocaine randomly into the air not caring where it lands, because DRUGS DO NOT STOP DISAPPEARING, THEY ARE IN CONSTANT DEMAND AND THEREFORE CONSTANT SUPPLY........ prohibition doesn't work!

We have a constant amount of cocaine in the world, nothing will change that.... no laws will change it. The only sane answer is harm reduction.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (04/05/06 03:49 PM)

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483373 - 04/05/06 03:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

another thing- mabey they start the war on drugs to prevent young people from getting addicted. This is exaclty why they throw somone in jail for selling cocain or even using it. Why let one person fuck up the lives of many more?




So you think the government needs to protect us from ourselves? I think this oversteps boundaries into our precious cognitive and autonomic liberties. Harm reduction has time and again been proven far more effective than prohibition.

Quote:

cocain which if let to be sold freely would turn our nation into hell. Mabey they go overboard on the war against drugs like shrooms and lsd but on other drugs like cocain, heroin, and meth they are doing the right thing.




I'm not sure what reasoning you're using to come to this conclusion but I have two issues with this. First, prior to the narcotics act which originally made cocaine and heroin illegal, they were sold OTC. We were not a nation of zombies or drug addicted junkies then, and I don't think we would become one now. It was very expensive for them, so only the rich could afford it. If these hard drugs were legalized and regulated and taxed, with decent harm reduction education around, I'm confident that fewer people would end up on the street as addicts, there would be fewer overdoses, less people in prison, and most likely fewer users.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 208
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: leery11]
    #5483410 - 04/05/06 03:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

AGAIN YOU FORGOT, THIS IS ABOUT DEMOCRACY NOT THE UNITED STATES

I agree with most things you say about the United States government being corupt.

"We are NOT free to vote because we are conditioned who to vote for through fear mongering."
What the hell is this? Who do I fear when I go to vote? NO ONE. There are not people sitting outside the polling places with guns like some others countries. Why state this?

"The black market SELLS TO KIDS. Conveniance stores don't. Does that register with you? If you sell cocaine in stores, kids will at least have to get a fake ID to get it. If you make it illegal people will go sell drugs to their classmates, and they obviously don't care about the harm."
Ok. Alcohol is legal. I can obtain alcohol easily and I am under the age of 21. If anything this will make the problem even worse. Making a highly addictive drug available in stores? Even if it is restricted to a certain age group your idea is terrible. More people are drinking alcohol now then they were during the prohabition.

In the Netherlands, adults smoke just as much weed as they do in America. But get this, children smoke it LESS in the Netherlands than they do in America? WHY? Because it isn't cool! It's normal. It's done responsibly... it's just an ordinary thing and there is NO counter-culture attached to it no "hey man fuck ... let's get stoned it's so awesome to be a rebel and break the law..... yeah fuck school".....
I totaly agree with this. The whole issue is subjective and different drugs should be dealt with in different ways. And by the way it is 10 times harder to get pot then it is to get alcohol. If cocain adicts could go to the store and buy it much of our homeless population would be in trouble and the poverty level would rise due to the huge number of sales that would happen. I respect your views but most of this stuff is just garbage.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
Informer
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Registered: 04/01/06
Posts: 208
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483426 - 04/05/06 03:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Knowlege and availability back before the bill was passed were few and far between. Do you honestly think if we made cocain and other drugs available at the drug store right now, we would not have a problem on our hands?


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483453 - 04/05/06 04:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That would depend on how you define "a problem". Do you consider tobacco and alcohol to be problems?

So long as there are harm reduction programs in place, then people will know the actual risks and dangers and will be able to make informed decisions about whether or not to try substances.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483460 - 04/05/06 04:05 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Wee HAVE A PROBLEMMMM ON OUR HANDS!

The fire is burning, do you control it or pay no attention?

PEOPLE USE DRUGS. these people will always exist. their numbers do not change.

We will have a problem, yes, a controlled problem that can be assesed and dealt with.

billions of dolalrs. That's how much money we can spend on FIXING the drug system, creating FREE REHAB CLINICS, if it is not wasted in taxing the already taxed resources of law enforcement.

Will more people use? Yes. Not forever though, it balances out. I'll tell you what, if coke is legal, I don't think I'm going to buy it. The kind of people that like doing coke, are the kinds already doing it. The kind that want to do coke, are the ones already doing it.

I would say only weed and hallucinagens might see increases in use for a while.

The facts are out there. The Netherlands has the same levels of marijuana use as the United States! It's DAMAGE CONTROL MAN.
Quote:

dblaney said:
That would depend on how you define "a problem". Do you consider tobacco and alcohol to be problems?

So long as there are harm reduction programs in place, then people will know the actual risks and dangers and will be able to make informed decisions about whether or not to try substances.



I might add tobacco kills more people and is more addictive than cocaine. Imagine if we put every tobacco user in prison? The black market for tobacco would make organized thugs millions. In fact, look at countries were tobacco is illegal. Then they have ANOTHER PROBLEM TO WORRY ABOUT.... organized crime selling drugs... when instead they could be selling it.

PEOPLE USE DRUGS.

do you want them to be safe ? Do you want to look over them and control the product quality in order to keep them as safe as possible? Or do you want thugs running drugs?

It is as simple and as black and white as this.

Government selling drugs = drug use + safety
Organized crime selling drugs = drug use - safety.

Which do you prefer? DRUG USE is a constant. It will never stop.

Bottom line is I can't tell you not to masturbate, have sex doggy style, or cultivate plants for your person use. You can't tell me that either. Do you have a right to tell me I can't use cocaine? Because I sure don't have a right to tell you that! Why does the government get to? It's not right. That's the most important point.

It's a declaration of war against freedom. I can't tell the junkie not to shoot up, and he'll shoot up whether it's legal or not. I want him shooting up as safe as he can. Well actually I can and would tell him not to shoot up, but I can't force him not to. I can only try to offer him the best guidance as possible.

DARE FAILED MISERABLY. It was proven to have no statistical effect on drug use in children. Children will use drugs. They will use them less if the black market doesn't sell to them

You have the right to use cocaine. I do not have the right to shoot, beat, or imprison you if you choose to invoke that right.
It may be a terrible decision for you to make, and I fully support drug education and harm reduction, and in fact do not favor any non-hallucinagenic drugs right now in my life, this includes alcohol. I'm not even sure if I encourage use of hallucinagens either. I may even never use drugs again. I don't know what I will decide. But what I do know is the drug war is failing miserably and is an atrocity against humans.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (04/05/06 04:12 PM)

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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Male

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Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
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Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5483872 - 04/05/06 05:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

David_vs_Goliath said:
And by the way it is 10 times harder to get pot then it is to get alcohol. If cocain adicts could go to the store and buy it much of our homeless population would be in trouble and the poverty level would rise due to the huge number of sales that would happen.





When I was underage I always found pot just as easy as booze to get ahold.

Homeless would be in trouble how? Also how would poverty level increase, I would think the opposite, the coke would cost less and people wouldn't have to go to extremes to afford it, cutting down on jail time, eliminate the criminal aspect to it, creating less organized crime, the ability to put wasted drug war funds somewhere else, the people of southern america who are constantly harrased and have their lives ruined because of your Drug War could start supporting themselves better without worrying that in one day of American war machines spraying their crops could instantly elimiating their ability to buy food, clothes, ect , maybe lessen broken homes, and lost jobs, which would all put more money back into the system. Even government studies show nicotine to be just as if not more addictive than coke. What do you think would happen if cigs became illegal and people were forced to pay $70 for a pack illegaly, that wouldn't cause many social problems?

Should this law be put into full swing, FUCK NO! The way this society is right now is very bad for drug abuse, we lack respect and education on drugs. Slowly we would have to integrate this massive change and do it being VERY mindful of every step.

I think it could be done with sucess, but it won't be because there is too much money to be made and control to be had by those who have interest in that.

The money saved in legalizing these drugs, could go towards addiction treatment and PROPER drug education. Those things could be payed for with a fraction of what is used to incarcerate the drug "criminals" of today.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

Edited by bellylard (04/05/06 05:49 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: blaze2]
    #5483873 - 04/05/06 05:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
The jews during their captivity in egypt is an example.  These guys were given land and cattle, a home with more than one room, and most importantly the protection of society. 




Source? The last I had personally heard, there is no archaeological evidence that supports the notion that Egypt had Jewish slaves.

Quote:


Wrong.  Its pretty hard to maintain middle class life without a good Job




Simple enough point, yes, one must sustain one's existance.

Quote:


you lose your job if you break the law




Would you have your children babysat by a criminal? Same mentality. This is not an aspect of democracy itself but yet the policy of employers.

Quote:


therefore you have the choice of risk of losing everything or obeying the law as simply the way things are.  there is no freedom in this.




Indeed, each action has subsequent consequences. It is to be noted that laws are not permanent, nor are they cast in stone.

Quote:


The theory I have so far is that all governments throughout all time's sole purpose has been controlling the mobs.




Quite possibly. The most effective leader will never be recognized as being the leader.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblewery67564
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 221
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5483938 - 04/05/06 06:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ahh...so easy to saywhats wrong, but do you know what it should be?

I think gov. should only interfer in personal lives if we inflict physical damage upon a person or their property. All we need to do is get rid of laws against consensual crimes...

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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: wery67564]
    #5483997 - 04/05/06 06:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

Source? The last I had personally heard, there is no archaeological evidence that supports the notion that Egypt had Jewish slaves.




this is what i heard as well, but only from a HS history teacher. he seemed well versed on such issues though.
Quote:

wery67564 said:
ahh...so easy to saywhats wrong, but do you know what it should be?

I think gov. should only interfer in personal lives if we inflict physical damage upon a person or their property. All we need to do is get rid of laws against consensual crimes...



heh, don't you contradict yourself? That is what it should be, and its quite easy to say.

It's up to the lawyers and politicians to figure out just exactly how that would work, but basically it's this: End criminalization of all substances. Allow people to cultivate anything that is not dangerous, such as mushrooms, marijuana, tobacco, opium, but keep meth labs/lsd labs/labs illegal... and let the government or big businesses/pharmacies (like Sandoz) make the synthetic drugs..... all of them. RCs... LSD..... meth..... PCP... you name it.......

and then...... it's just a matter of all the middle men changing their policies to figure out, how can I sell these drugs, and how can I ensure maximum safety on part of the consumer? And then all the drug rehabiliation programs will just shift their stances, get more funding since the money is free to be spend for drug TREATMENT instead of IMPRISONMENT.

it will fall into place.... we have a huge vast system capable of spying on all your cell phone calls ilegally, I'm sure this system can figure out how to get a legal drug market up and running.

the biggest, single, biggest issue is education. It's not drug use, it's abuse that we're worried about. And the current American attitude of escapism and instant gratification pretty much encourages everyone to be really irresponsible, especially when they are young.

But this irresponsibly is indeed somewhat tied to the prohibition itself.... but education must be a key staple.

not DARE.

just "any questions about drugs kids?" tell them the truth, educate them about what will happen to their bodies and minds, what can happen, and what usually happens, and how particular drugs are used responsibly, such as teach about the way native americans use peyote..... things like that....

Who knows. It's not as complex as the pessimists make it out to be. All you have to do is one thing. Stop the controlled substances act. The rest will fall into place.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Democracy =! Slavery [Re: leery11]
    #5484341 - 04/05/06 07:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

just "any questions about drugs kids?" tell them the truth, educate them about what will happen to their bodies and minds, what can happen, and what usually happens, and how particular drugs are used responsibly, such as teach about the way native americans use peyote..... things like that....




:thumbup: :thumbup: This is crucial, harm reduction and giving people the OBJECTIVE FACTS, not what you want people to believe or data from biased studies. Let people make up their own minds on what they'll do. Cognitive liberty!

Quote:

Who knows. It's not as complex as the pessimists make it out to be. All you have to do is one thing. Stop the controlled substances act. The rest will fall into place.




This I'm not so sure of...if ending all of society's ills was as easy as stopping one piece of legislation, I'd bet something would have been done by now. I think it is a piece (albeit an important piece) of the puzzle that we have to complete.

fireworks god said:
Quote:

Quite possibly. The most effective leader will never be recognized as being the leader.




I completely agree. Furthermore they shouldn't even want to lead, for if someone wants to lead it means they have some desire for control as well as expectations. With control issues it's easy to see why they wouldn't be a good leader, with historical examples of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. etc. And if they had expectations, then they wouldn't be fully equiped to be spontaneous and deal with issues as they arise. Plato gave a fantastic description of the Philosopher-King.

wery said:
Quote:

I think gov. should only interfer in personal lives if we inflict physical damage upon a person or their property.




Alright, but what about in other situations, such as land boundaries, economic problems, psychological damage? Should the government just stay out of all of those too?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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