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palmersc
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alcoholism a disease
#5719956 - 06/06/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I frequently go to NA and AA meetings and have been through a few months of corrective thinking rehab classes.
I'm not very well received when I laugh at them when told that alcoholism is a disease.
I think this way of thinking tries to make us every bit as irresponsible for ourselves as abusing drugs does. Labeling alcohol as "cunning and baffling." I'm surrounded by people who are following some steps that are god sent. They label others who do not adhere to their new found way of life as sick people.
At those classes we are constantly told we are worthless pieces of shit and our best thinking is what got us here, so we are not normal and need to be shown how normal people live. While some are in need of guidance, I'm surprised at how many people suck this shit up and then proceed to look down on people who didn't jump on the same boat. We are constantly told not to hang out with "old" friends and at meetings I hear an array of messages just regurgitated over and over.
Guess I just got to play along and make this as quick and painless as possible. But when it gets around to my turn to speak sometimes I can't help myself. What I'm really after at those meetings is hearing somebody else's ideas other than Dr. Bob's.
I got kind of off topic, but just wondering what the consensus is on this disease.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5719973 - 06/06/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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disease is not a good word
there are genes that make people prone to alcoholism as far as I have heard..... and I always hear "it runs in your family" etc, etc...
but frankly I don't know about it at all. You get drunk, it feels good. You get drunk again, it feels good. You get drunk again, you have a physical dependence.
Why don't we hear of tobaccoism as a disease, or cannabis-ism as a disease?
It's just addiction really. Addiction is vicious and may require outside intervention perhaps, and could be considered a "disease" maybe but I don't like the term and the way they use it either, myself.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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palmersc
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: leery11]
#5720005 - 06/06/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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no they refer to addiction as a disease. Gambling, drugs whatever. Used alcohol cause I usually talk with alcoholics at the meetings. They tell us that we are physically and mentally not normal and need help if we don't want to die.
Sorry for bringing such shit to the table, but I got another year of this and wondered if their tactics sounded suspicious.
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Gomp
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5720009 - 06/06/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You mean the word, in its most common context? (As used this moment/as of this day ... )
Or the meaning of the word, as the word itself?
Dis ease?
Why alcoholism? Because of; lack of ease? Dis·ease!?
Just being curious.
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niteowl
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5720969 - 06/06/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do not believe that addiction is a disease.
It is an affliction that can happen to any person on the planet if they do something to excess.
Addiction is not a disease.....it's the human condition, of no longer being in control of your life. It can happen to anyone of us.
To think that someone who is addicted to something, is sick or has something wrong with their genetic codes, is foolish.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Deviate
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
#5721535 - 06/07/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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AA has helped a lot of people but obviously its not perfect and could probably (well definitetly) be better. as for alcoholism being a disease, no, its an addiction.
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Telepylus
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Deviate]
#5721614 - 06/07/06 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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yep yep gomp it's dis-ease when it becomes a problem
like gambling, or cheating on your wife, or road rage or anything else
we all got problems and there's a group for everything, and, most of the people there are always idiots, lol
my favorite part is when they hold hands in a circle and pray at the end. i've never actually been a alcoholic or junky, but i've been to tons of meetings.
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niteowl
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Deviate]
#5721666 - 06/07/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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He was saying that addiction itself, is a disease.
Quote:
palmersc said: no they refer to addiction as a disease. Gambling, drugs whatever.
I can't see how being addicted to something can be considered a disease.
Addiction is merely a state of mind.
It is neither good nor bad.
You can be addicted to porn, sex, food, video games, the internet.......are these addictions diseases?????

They call them diseases, to make it sound like the person suffering from their addiction, has no control over their addiction. That they are some how "genetically prone" to addiction (defective, in some way....abnormal)
This is just a sneaky way to get you to "give your live over to god".
"You're worthless, and can't think for yourself, therefore you must think like us" 
They take people who are already addicts, and just change their addiction from a chemical/emotional addiction to a dogmatic addiction.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Deviate
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
#5721722 - 06/07/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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He was saying that addiction itself, is a disease.
yes, i know that. and i was saying there is no reason to say that because the model of addiction is fine by itself. in other words, i think we should concieve of addictions as addictions, rather than lumping them in with cancer and the flu.
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Gomp
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Gomp]
#5722180 - 06/07/06 08:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are "we" confusing "illness" and "disease", here!?
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-------------------- Disclaimer!?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5722186 - 06/07/06 08:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alcohol Use Disorders: 303.00 Alcohol Dependence 305.00 Alcohol Abuse
Alcohol-Induced Disorders: 303.00 Alcohol Intoxication 291.8 Alcohol Withdrawal 291.0 Alcohol Intoxication Delirium 291.0 Alcohol Withdrawal Delirium 291.2 Alcohol-Induced Persisting Dementia 291.1 Alcohol-Induced Persisting Amnesic Disorder 291.5 Alcohol-Induced Psychotic Disorder, With Delusions 291.3 Alcohol-Induced Psychotic Disorder, With Hallucinations 291.8 Alcohol-Induced Mood Disorder 291.8 Alcohol-Induced Anxiety Disorder 291.8 Alcohol-Induced Sexual disorder 291.8 Alcohol-Induced Sleep Disorder 291.9 Alcohol-Related Disorder Not Otherwise Specified
Page 195 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (AKA DSM IV)
I've been a substance abuse counselor in practice since 1982. Alcoholism is a "Mental Disorder," which is to say a disease of the mind. Are you getting the point through your denial? This isn't a mere opinion. The Disease has onset, symptoms, stages, organic correlates, and it often results in death. It is not a 'spiritual or moral weakness,' as thought in the 19th century when it was called dipsomania. I have worked with 7th grade middle school alcoholics, seen friends succumb and even suicide. WAKE UP
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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mockeylock
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So what does "God" have to do with it??? Doesn't AA invovle prayer and giving yourself to the Lord?
Or am I totally off base here?
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Stonerguy
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5722233 - 06/07/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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These are there tacticts. They break you down so they can build you up. I think it is a bullshit way, I was in something like for awhile. Every time I had to speak I let them know my stance in a polite way, but made sure I got my point across. The twelve step program is a bunch of bullshit, its whole basis is that you believe in a higher power.............
I have very strong feelings on this matter, as I have had to endure it. The American "rehab" methods DO NOT WORK.
-------------------- yawn... SG
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Deviate
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Stonerguy]
#5722940 - 06/07/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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how do you feel about some of the alternatives to AA's method, such as http://www.smartrecovery.org/ and http://www.rational.org/?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: mockeylock]
#5725140 - 06/07/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What doesn't God have to do with? What is excluded from God? Alcoholism is a misdirected attempt at religion, thus sayeth Dr. Carl Jung. Yhere is more than meaningless coincidence at calling alcohol 'spirits,' and the whole Dionysian aspect becomes exaggerated to pathological extremes. Dionysus means 'god of nysus [Greece]'. AA is a yoga-stage-like discipline that Bill Wilson constructed based on his own 4 years of LSD psychotherapy. Since he could not give LSD to alcoholics, he translated his experience down to a very workable program - and this after C.G. Jung told him that religious experience was the answer to the misdirected alcoholics plight. Read Bill's autobiography if you're interested.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Stonerguy]
#5725144 - 06/07/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The 12 Steps are brilliant and about the ONLY thing that is curative. You're the one full of bovine excrement. Why not clean up and clean out?
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MushmanTheManic
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Trying to impose a religion belief on someone who doesn't believe, in order to help them overcome a mental disease, is ridiculous. "I know you don't believe in God, but in order for our therapy to be effective, you're going to have to start believing!"
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Deviate
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that's a common critisism of AA and one of the reasons why AA is not for everyone. some people will simply be turned off by a spiritual approach and that's why there are other secular organizations which may suit them better.
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SneezingPenis
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just because a group of people or an organization has devoted a name to a behavioral problem relative to societal normalcy, does not make it "proof of a disease".
AA has claimed at times that it has a 90% success rate, yet almost every study, even one internal study, by AA themselves, found no more than a 10% success rate. On average, through the life span of AA, they have a 5% success rate for "curing alchoholism", even though they themselves claim it is an "incurable disease".
I don't see why more people don't just take that pill that makes you violently ill if you drink? I garauntee that a conditioned physical aversion will work more permanently and more proficiently than "God's miraculous 12 step recovery".
Psychiatry is not a science..... mostly. Im sure there are some studies out there which are purely objective, but the greater majority of "scientific" studies regarding psychiatry/psychology use subjective and even abstract concepts as constants which can be measured against. Take for instance "attention span", great catch phrase, 4-year olds to octagenarians use it, but what is it? doesn't the term "span" denote measurement? I wonder where I can buy an attentionometer?
Often times, psychiatry ignores one of the main tenets of "scientific discovery": CAUSE AND EFFECT.
Here is a study I would like to see performed. How about we DNA test and analyze a group of 100 toddlers, find how many have the "drunk gene", make that the control group, chart their next 20-30 years of life, and see how many become alchoholics.
See, where Psychiatry really jumps the gun is that they are testing people who are already full blown drunks? after years and years of barrages of poison you will find that your chemical make-up has been altered, thus CAUSE AND EFFECT.
just like depression..... whenever you study a group of people already "afflicted" with said disease, of course you will find physical or mental similarities, that is like saying "we found that a great majority of pregnant women have stretch marks on their stomachs, therefor, being pregnant causes stretch marks"...... but that isn't the case right? it is the stretching of skin, not the insemination of an egg..... yet the two are highly LINKED, but not a CAUSE AND EFFECT of each other.
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Roker
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Help me please - I can't stop screwing around on my wife, it must be a disease because I caught it off my girlfriend who is screwing around on her husband who caught it from the receptionist at his work.
It's not my fault, it is a real illness affecting millions of people all over the world. I'm desperate, I feel an attack coming on. I will have to wait till my wife goes to work, then go next door to my neighbours house and try to relieve the swelling.
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Silversoul
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5726434 - 06/08/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. 'Damn it, Otto, you're an alcoholic.' 'Damn it, Otto, you have lupus.' One of those two doesn't sound right." -- Mitch Hedberg
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Icelander
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Roker]
#5726500 - 06/08/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Roker said: Help me please - I can't stop screwing around on my wife, it must be a disease because I caught it off my girlfriend who is screwing around on her husband who caught it from the receptionist at his work.
It's not my fault, it is a real illness affecting millions of people all over the world. I'm desperate, I feel an attack coming on. I will have to wait till my wife goes to work, then go next door to my neighbours house and try to relieve the swelling.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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palmersc
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: AA is a yoga-stage-like discipline that Bill Wilson constructed based on his own 4 years of LSD psychotherapy. Since he could not give LSD to alcoholics, he translated his experience down to a very workable program - and this after C.G. Jung told him that religious experience was the answer to the misdirected alcoholics plight. Read Bill's autobiography if you're interested.
Untrue. The twelve steps were written about 20 years prior to Bill's experiences with LSD. The 12 steps were heavily based on the Oxford group's 6 steps.
The program is now tightly bound to the legal system. Now they got institutions cramming this philosophy down everyone's throat who has a run in with the police. Be it in NA with my "narcotic" marijuana and mushrooms or AA with alcohol.
I will say that since I've had some clean time,it's allowed me to step back and take a good look at alcohol. So it has been a good lesson, but I learned this on my own by reading some philosophy and meditating.
I'm sure you have a lot of studies you could reference to that say such and such gland is improperly functioning etc. which causes people to use drugs excessively. It may have some merit, but it's obvious to me that our environment growing up had the largest influence.
I know I can tame my mind and be in control of it instead of the other way around. The mind is very plastic. If feeling that god is in control makes you feel better do that.
The problem I see is that the program makes people feel worthless and not in control of their own lives. I see those in power using the fact that the mind is so plastic to make people think this program is the way of god.
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MarkostheGnostic
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You're just plain, simply wrong. Obviously, you don't know the first thing about AA/NA. There is no belief system involved. It is much more like Buddhism and Buddha's attitude. It is a way to the alleviation of suffering. In Buddhism, the cause of suffering is desire - attachment. Addiction is a more profound degree of attachment. The 12 Steps are a 'ladder of attainment' model in which one systematically detaches from addictive behavior and at the lower rungs, one effects 'repairs' to people one has injured along the path of addiction. The highest rungs aim at a transforming religious experience. Since the "transcendent function" is built into the human experience, this becomes a possibility for those seeking transformation of their lives. There has never been any doctrine connected to these principles.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5726661 - 06/08/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i went to an NA meeting once. I was discussing psychedelic psychotherapy with a girl in wake of a bad "trip" on alcohol and she wanted me to go to an NA meeting to see what the other alternative to substance dependency is....
so I agreed if she would listen to an Ann Shulgin MP3.... anyway so we went because she knew people that were in it and it was pretty depressing.
The thing most ridiculous? Everyone sitting outside puffing the hell out of cigarettes then going into the meeting...... right they aren't allowed to drink. "No pot either" but before and after meeting it seems like every one of them puffed up.
Now this isn't fair on my part to judge but.... it just blew my mind. Such a terrible addiction is permitted but they aren't allowed pot ? They can have all the free coffee they want too? Well I mean suit yourself.... toabcco doesn't really get you high or anything but it's a drug and a powerfully addictive one.
what I took away from the meeting was a genuine sadness and empathy for their plights, a feeling of fortune that I never developed a drug dependency problem, and a deep disdain for the drug war.
"institutions, prison, or death" was what a story they were reading talks about.
Two of those are consequences of a drug WAR! Not of a drug! So much could be done to help these addicts if we had more sensible policies.
But yeah I mean. I dunno. If you surrender your life completely to something that feels really good, and turn to it as the only source of your happiness, you can't exactly quit it voluntarily since you have nothing else going on for you in your life... that is why they surrender to a higher power.
someone tell me why the US won't allow Ibogaine clinics?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 01:11 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5726690 - 06/08/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Disease a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning.
If we take Markos position that all mental disorders are mental diseases, then the part of us which is "impairing normal functioning" is our mind.
When we treat a part of the body which has become diseased, must we "let go and let God"? Perhaps this would be an effective aspect of treatment for someone with strong religious faith, as the placebo effect can be quite powerful. For someone with little or no faith, this would probably not benefit their treatment.
If alcoholism (and depression, schizophrenia, psychosis, OCD, etc...) is a disease of the mind, then treatment which directly addresses this part of us will be the most effective.
Which method of treatment will be the most direct would, naturally, vary from mind to mind. My mind is accessed most directly through rationality and scientific testing of methods and ideas. Your mind might be accessed directly with AA's 12 steps, Reichian bodywork, long hikes through the redwoods, or any number of access-points.
IMO, calling alcoholism a "disease" creates a victim-perpetrator dichotomy. Instead of saying "I am engaging in addictive behavior," the diseased alcoholic might say "alcoholism made me do it." If we have a mental/emotional disorder, then it is up to us to restore order. No outside disease perpetrator has broken in to mess up our tidy mental house--we did it.
I believe that taking personal responsibility for dysfunctional choices is STEP ONE in any effective treatment program.
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Icelander
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Veritas]
#5726707 - 06/08/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good post as usual Veritas.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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palmersc
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There is no belief system involved.
haha
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There has never been any doctrine connected to these principles.
just my experience
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: The 12 Steps are brilliant and about the ONLY thing that is curative
so I hear
Not really out to discredit the program. Just pointing out that I'm greatly turned off by the tactics I've been exposed to.
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fireworks_god
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5727513 - 06/08/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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South Park, Season 9, Episode 14.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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"Uh, my name's Randy, and, uh, I just really like beer."
"You have to admit that you're an alcoholic."
"But, I don't really know that I'm an alcoholic."
"Then why are you here?"
"Because I got a DUI, and so I'm required to attend AA meetings for two weeks. I was stupid one night and drank too much, and then drove a car. That was dumb and I'm not going to do it again."
"Randy, you are powerless to make that decision. The only thing that works is the twelve step program. Step one is admitting that you are powerless to control your drinking. Only then can you move on to the other twelve steps, like, believing in a higher power, God, makes you stop drinking, and then turning your life over to that God, and humbly asking God to remove your weaknesses "
"Wait wait wait, hold on, uh, I never knew that Alcoholics Anonymous was a religious thing."
"It's not religious, you just have to admit that there is some kind of God which has power over you and turn your life over to that God and ask him for forgiveness. That's the twelve step program, not religion."
"Look, I really just need to cut down on my drinking and never drive a car drunk again."
"You can't just cut down on your drinking, Randy. You need to know something. You have a disease."
*Randy becomes shocked*
"Uh... a disease?"
"That's right. Alcoholism is a disease. You're sick, Randy. You're very very sick. And just like with most diseases, you can't cure it yourself. And it's deadly!"
Nevertheless, the next scene is Stan walking into his house to find his father, Randy, wrapped up in blankets on the couch, beer bottles laying around everywhere. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
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"It's not religious, you just have to admit that there is some kind of God which has power over you and turn your life over to that God and ask him for forgiveness. That's the twelve step program, not religion."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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colimon
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Gomp]
#5727724 - 06/08/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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that's terrible! addiction isn't a disease! It's a state of mind or physical thing! But where does the disease part come in? where they trying to scare you or something?
-------------------- I believe with the advent of acid we discovered new way to think and it had to do with piecing together new thoughts of mind. Why is it that people think it's so evil? What is it about it that there is scares people so deeply? Because they are afraid that there is more to reality than they have ever confronted. That there are doors that they're afraid to go in and they don't want us to go in there either because if we go in, there we might learn something that they don't know. And that makes us a little out of their control.
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fireworks_god
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Icelander]
#5727731 - 06/08/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The episode is an interesting one. After his AA meeting, he falls deep into a self-induced sickness, to the point where he is in a wheelchair, proclaiming that only a miracle will save him.
Then a statue of the Virgin Mary begins bleeding out of his ass, and he makes a pilgrimmage to the statue and gets sprayed in the face with the blood. He is cured.
Five days later, the pope visits the statue and declares that it is not actually a miracle, as he determines the blood to be coming from her vagina, not her ass, stating, "A woman bleeding out of her vagina is no miracle. Women bleed out of their vagina all the time".
Randy begins drinking again, until his son shows him how he was not, in fact, powerless over his drinking, and that it was him who was responsible for his going five days without drinking. In the beginning of the episode, the kids are in their karate class, and their teacher is giving them a lesson on discipline. The end of the episode promotes self discipline, as the teacher said, "True discipline comes from within".
The God bit is probably ineffective. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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alcoholism is an excuse to do nothing...
its gets its roots from the moral majority
Edited by Schwammel (06/08/06 07:40 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5728121 - 06/08/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your awareness determines your reality. If you believe that it is an incurable illness that you must forever guard against then it will be that. If you percieve that it is a correctable condition that merely requires taking responsibility for the self, then it is that. I overcame a 15 year bout with alcoholism in about 3 months by becoming self responsible.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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I agree
to be a successful alcoholic you have to enjoy the moment...
and if you can't do that you're doomed
Edited by Schwammel (06/08/06 07:56 PM)
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: South Park, Season 9, Episode 14.
Quit quoting scripture
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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"What doesn't God have to do with?" "There is no belief system involved." "The highest rungs aim at a transforming religious experience."
This doesn't seem contradictory to you? "There is no belief system involved, just a transforming religious experience."
Furthermore, according to the all-too-pious twelve step program:
"1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs."
(Source: http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=117)
Plus, under clinical scrutiny, the success rate of A.A. has been dismal. The University Park Press published an article that showed those who had gone through A.A. drank five times more often than the control group, and nine times more often than those who underwent REBT. I have yet to see any clinical trial that supports the effectiveness of the twelve step program.
But, of course, you can always negate this, again, with "Obviously, you don't know the first thing about AA/NA." Ad hominem makes for a cogent arguement.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (06/08/06 09:47 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I once had a partner who was alcoholic. I went with her to some of the meetings. There were some really sensitive souls there. But in the end, AA was the end of the line for them. They were trapped there repeating the same old stories each week for years while they accumulated the yearly coins in recognition of their prison terms.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: niteowl]
#5728836 - 06/08/06 10:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So much for your 'belief.'
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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Whatever study you might be familiar with does not make it or break it in terms of the 'potential' efficacy of the model. The model is a spiritual one, and along with C.G. Jung, his predecesor William James, and modern thinkers - transcendence of the human condition is the answer. Addiction is one of the more dismal aspects of the human condition and I have seen people use the model with success.
The higher numbers of people who drank to excess does not attribute causality to group membership. It more likely concerns more rabidly addictive individuals desparately grasping help whilst they drown in their disease. I don't know what your experience is with addicted individuals, but I've been working in the field for over 20 years. Studies that you yourself have not created (who is University Park Press anyway, and to monopolize accuracy for what, your argument?) do not bolster your argument.
BTW, religious experience is an experience of the Numinous. It is immediate and completely transforming to one who has undergone such. Belief, as in doctrinal statements deriving from tradition, has no bearing on the immediacy of religious experience even though such an experience may be colored by exposure to myths and teachings. There is no contradiction here.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: leery11]
#5728889 - 06/08/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you check the DSM IV you will 'read' bout the addictive disease nature of nicotine and cannabis. Perhaps you are a user of these substances yourself. Immediately the tendency would be to defend yourself against any assertions that you are 'sick.' Nevertheless, there is use, abuse, dependency, withdrawal and recidivism in the use of these substances.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl] 1
#5728908 - 06/08/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Addiction is merely a state of mind.
It is neither good nor bad."
Oh really? 
"You can be addicted to porn, sex, food, video games, the internet.......are these addictions diseases?????"
Uh...duh...yes. Morbid obesity as a result of food addiction is ill-effecting a huge percentage of Americans. Sex addiction? Hello. Where have you been? Video games are not only addictive, they are integrally related to situations like the Columbine massacre as well as more and more incidents and a growing trend toward depersonalization of violence. Games are a powerful medium for adolescent stupidity which extends to the mid 20s.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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The model is a spiritual one
As palmersc pointed out, this model is used on everyone who gets in trouble with the police for alcohol or alcohol related crimes, regardless of whether they are spiritual or non-spiritual. How is a naturalist, skeptic, empiricist, atheist, existentialist, agnostic, etc supposed to rely on a power outside of her/himself (without compromising their beliefs)?
The higher numbers of people who drank to excess does not attribute causality to group membership. It more likely concerns more rabidly addictive individuals desparately grasping help whilst they drown in their disease.
Although I cannot claim to be certain of this, I think the A.A. group and the control group may have been matched.
I don't know what your experience is with addicted individuals, but I've been working in the field for over 20 years.
I'm just a student.
Studies that you yourself have not created (who is University Park Press anyway, and to monopolize accuracy for what, your argument?) do not bolster your argument.
I'm not sure why I have to conduct a clinical trial in order to use it as evidence or what you mean by "monopolize accuracy." Again, I don't remember all of the details of the study, but I think the University Park Press is an academic journal based in the University of Baltimore.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with South Park on this one. It's a cult. My friend made me go to one of his meetings with him, and was disgusted at all the indoctrination. I'm sure it helps a lot of people, but there are other ways of treating addiction.
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soma_seeker
Stranger in aStrange Land


Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 367
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Silversoul]
#5729729 - 06/09/06 05:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Being the son of a man who's entire family (he was the 2nd youngest of 13 children and i have 55 cousins on his side, so when i say family...) was negatively influenced by the effects of alcoholism, (either through personal suffering of the 'disease' or living in such an environment) i am quite concerned over the evidence supporting the theory of alcoholism being genetic.
As for the validity in refering to alcoholism as a disease i think valid points have been made on both sides, HOWEVER i think the true medical definitions of the different types of addiction are so far withdrawn from the general consensus of its meaning that the word 'addiction' has become merely a vulgar buzzword.
-------------------- Taking a psychedelic is analogous to life, if you dwell on reaching the end you'll never enjoy the trip!
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: "Addiction is merely a state of mind.
It is neither good nor bad."
Oh really? 
"You can be addicted to porn, sex, food, video games, the internet.......are these addictions diseases?????"
Uh...duh...yes. Morbid obesity as a result of food addiction is ill-effecting a huge percentage of Americans. Sex addiction? Hello. Where have you been?
I never said that addiction was always good.....just that it's not always bad. Some addictions can be devastating. Some addictions are harmless. What I'm referring to (and the topic of this thread, btw) is calling addiction and disease the same thing.
They are not the same.
An addiction is something you do to yourself.
A disease is something that is done to you by an outside force.
It is fairly simple really.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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slaphappy
Its just me


Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 1,188
Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll, Råholt...
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
#5729925 - 06/09/06 07:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Any addiction which do not ease, is a disease.
-------------------- The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: slaphappy]
#5729954 - 06/09/06 08:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It seems foolish to lump these very different states if illness in the same boat.
If disease is any thing that causes me dis ease then my broken toe must be a disease 
It sounds to me like a catch phrase for leaders (politicians,preachers,Dr's) to claim that we are helpless to everything and need their "help".
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
#5729955 - 06/09/06 08:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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help = Rx or bible
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
#5730133 - 06/09/06 10:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see that you single-handedly have revised and redefined the ICD-9 (International Classification of Diseases codes). How good of you. Addiction is the diametrical opposite of freedom. Addiction is never benign inasmuch as slavery is never benevolent. You, of course, can live by your own definitions of reality if you want to. It seems like you are talking about 'habit,' and even habits are difficult to change. Addiction has nothing to do with inner vs. outer causes because there is no line of delineation between these categories. Things constantly come into and leave our physical bodies, our 'fields' of influence/perception, etc. Dis-ease can be caused by unknown etiology, by breakdown of organic processes at the molecular, cellular, or complete organ level. It does not have to enter in. Addiction is the interplay between volitional behaviors and substances or activities (e.g., gambling, sex, etc.) external to the physical body. We are not just physical bodies.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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For those clients who I used to take to meetings, and who did not believe in a higher power howsoever defined (metaphysically), the Higher Power was understood to be the community of AA people. The collective of all members of AA - a family, if you will, of compassionate others with the same predicament - THEY became the Higher Power. Later, as the denseness and downward-to-unconscious trend of their minds lightened up, some of those individuals began to have intuition awakened in themselves. They began to emerge from drunken slumber and some began to have insights into their motivations, then they began to ask 'big' questions about the meaning of life, and lo - spirituality dawned.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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palmersc
Stranger


Registered: 02/23/06
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Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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I can see where you are coming from. I've seen what addiction can do to a family first-hand. It's very sad.
One may indeed feel powerless and even have physical dependency in addiction. However, the mind is powerful. So calling somebody powerless who has a powerful mind saddens me. The 12 steps are nothing more than a way to condition the mind.
That's not to say that it is good or bad. Just a way.
Telling somebody that alcoholism is a disease or that it's cunning and baffling is a way to get people to submit to the message while refraining from personal responsibility. However, that's what most need. A good kick in the ass that doesn't hurt too bad.
Then the program can get down to business and sculpt the mind.
Edited by palmersc (06/09/06 12:36 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Icelander]
#5730956 - 06/09/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"I once had a partner who was alcoholic. I went with her to some of the meetings. There were some really sensitive souls there. But in the end, AA was the end of the line for them. They were trapped there repeating the same old stories each week for years while they accumulated the yearly coins in recognition of their prison terms."
All it take to be free is a change of perspective.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Absolutely true. That's the trick that few are willing to perform.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Icelander]
#5731617 - 06/09/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, but it is a good trick to know.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: All it take to be free is a change of perspective.

That, change of perspective, can only come from within.
Hoping, that god will save you from yourself, is a waste of time.
To claim, that one has no control, over their addiction, is a cop out.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: niteowl]
#5732185 - 06/09/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"To claim, that one has no control, over their addiction, is a cop out."
Precisely. One has all the control needed. The world is as we dream it.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: What doesn't God have to do with? What is excluded from God? Alcoholism is a misdirected attempt at religion, thus sayeth Dr. Carl Jung. Yhere is more than meaningless coincidence at calling alcohol 'spirits,' and the whole Dionysian aspect becomes exaggerated to pathological extremes. Dionysus means 'god of nysus [Greece]'. AA is a yoga-stage-like discipline that Bill Wilson constructed based on his own 4 years of LSD psychotherapy. Since he could not give LSD to alcoholics, he translated his experience down to a very workable program - and this after C.G. Jung told him that religious experience was the answer to the misdirected alcoholics plight. Read Bill's autobiography if you're interested.
That's pretty interesting. I've never seen it in that light
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: spud]
#5733176 - 06/10/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"""The topic of spirituality is becoming increasingly interesting to clinicians, psychiatrists, and researchers seeking more ways for people to deal with the temptations of addiction. There are all kinds of addictions, from drugs to cigarettes, to alcohol, to overeating, and even sex. Although modern counseling, support groups, and psychiatry have made great strides in the treatment of addiction and dependency, the patient must want to change before the treatment can be successful, because addiction is tied to a person’s inner self. And that inner self is where spirituality resides.
When a person’s inner self becomes damaged or distorted, their spirituality can become damaged or distorted, resulting in addictive and self-destructive behavior. Some people believe that the key to overcoming addiction lies in organized religion. But although there is a spiritual component to religion, there are vast differences between the two. Many people are very religious and yet have little or no spirituality. On the other hand, many very spiritual people do not hold any particular religious beliefs. The following of certain religious practices may help in overcoming addiction, but the success lies not in the religious nature of the practices, but in the fact that following them helps to heal an addict’s inner self, where spirituality resides.
The ancient spiritual discipline of fasting, the mirror opposite of indulgence, is of particular interest in relation to addition. Many people practice fasting for religious reasons, but its inherent nature is a spiritual one, because it helps to strengthen one’s self-control—a personal resource that is undeniably depletable. Just as muscles strengthen from repeated exercise, practicing regular self-control is necessary to have such control available whenever it is needed. So purposely fasting, even though food is available, helps give a person the strength to say no to any influences that may contribute to an addictive personality. If one can refuse food, the most basic of human needs, then one can learn to refuse destructive substances or influences that are not vital to survival.
The practices of prayer and meditation are also considered important in maintaining sobriety. Alcoholics Anonymous has 12 essential steps for members to follow, one of which says that addicts have "sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." But although many people think of Alcoholics Anonymous as a religious approach to beating addiction to alcohol, it is actually a spiritual approach to living. Spiritual discipline and character development are emphasized, including humility, confession and amends, forgiveness, acceptance, submission to a Higher Power, ongoing personal moral inventory, and service to others. Recent research also points to the mental health benefits of practices such as forgiveness and acceptance.
Many religious and meditative practices have their roots in establishing and strengthening self-control: focusing attention, maintaining forced silence, repetitive chanting, abstaining from food, often interspersed with silence, meditation, prayer, and contemplation. Such spiritual practices may promote incremental change over time, but they may also result in dramatic epiphanies, or "spiritual awakenings." Such awakenings can cause profound emotional release as a person feels freed from addiction and craving, and stories of such epiphanies are common in Alcoholics Anonymous. In fact, the last of the 12 Steps begins with the words, "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps."
Psychologist Jim Orford once noted that the reversal of a pervasive and persistent problem such as addiction may require a comprehensive "spiritual change" in attitude, character, and values. Noted psychiatrist Carl Jung described such spiritual awakenings in a similar fashion, as huge rearrangements of personality where "ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces … are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate." Clearly, when the faltering of one’s inner self manifests itself through addictive behavior, the path to healing must begin by healing that inner self—the spiritual self."""
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