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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5728877 - 06/08/06 10:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Whatever study you might be familiar with does not make it or break it in terms of the 'potential' efficacy of the model. The model is a spiritual one, and along with C.G. Jung, his predecesor William James, and modern thinkers - transcendence of the human condition is the answer. Addiction is one of the more dismal aspects of the human condition and I have seen people use the model with success.

The higher numbers of people who drank to excess does not attribute causality to group membership. It more likely concerns more rabidly addictive individuals desparately grasping help whilst they drown in their disease. I don't know what your experience is with addicted individuals, but I've been working in the field for over 20 years. Studies that you yourself have not created (who is University Park Press anyway, and to monopolize accuracy for what, your argument?) do not bolster your argument.

BTW, religious experience is an experience of the Numinous. It is immediate and completely transforming to one who has undergone such. Belief, as in doctrinal statements deriving from tradition, has no bearing on the immediacy of religious experience even though such an experience may be colored by exposure to myths and teachings. There is no contradiction here.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: leery11]
    #5728889 - 06/08/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you check the DSM IV you will 'read' bout the addictive disease nature of nicotine and cannabis. Perhaps you are a user of these substances yourself. Immediately the tendency would be to defend yourself against any assertions that you are 'sick.' Nevertheless, there is use, abuse, dependency, withdrawal and recidivism in the use of these substances.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl] * 1
    #5728908 - 06/08/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Addiction is merely a state of mind.

It is neither good nor bad."

Oh really?  :rolleyes:

"You can be addicted to porn, sex, food, video games, the internet.......are these addictions diseases?????"

Uh...duh...yes. Morbid obesity as a result of food addiction is ill-effecting a huge percentage of Americans. Sex addiction? Hello. Where have you been? Video games are not only addictive, they are integrally related to situations like the Columbine massacre as well as more and more incidents and a growing trend toward depersonalization of violence. Games are a powerful medium for adolescent stupidity which extends to the mid 20s.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5729036 - 06/08/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The model is a spiritual one

As palmersc pointed out, this model is used on everyone who gets in trouble with the police for alcohol or alcohol related crimes, regardless of whether they are spiritual or non-spiritual. How is a naturalist, skeptic, empiricist, atheist, existentialist, agnostic, etc supposed to rely on a power outside of her/himself (without compromising their beliefs)?

The higher numbers of people who drank to excess does not attribute causality to group membership. It more likely concerns more rabidly addictive individuals desparately grasping help whilst they drown in their disease.

Although I cannot claim to be certain of this, I think the A.A. group and the control group may have been matched.

I don't know what your experience is with addicted individuals, but I've been working in the field for over 20 years.

I'm just a student.

Studies that you yourself have not created (who is University Park Press anyway, and to monopolize accuracy for what, your argument?) do not bolster your argument.

I'm not sure why I have to conduct a clinical trial in order to use it as evidence or what you mean by "monopolize accuracy." Again, I don't remember all of the details of the study, but I think the University Park Press is an academic journal based in the University of Baltimore.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5729041 - 06/08/06 11:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with South Park on this one. It's a cult. My friend made me go to one of his meetings with him, and was disgusted at all the indoctrination. I'm sure it helps a lot of people, but there are other ways of treating addiction.


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Offlinesoma_seeker
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Silversoul]
    #5729729 - 06/09/06 05:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Being the son of a man who's entire family (he was the 2nd youngest of 13 children and i have 55 cousins on his side, so when i say family...) was negatively influenced by the effects of alcoholism, (either through personal suffering of the 'disease' or living in such an environment) i am quite concerned over the evidence supporting the theory of alcoholism being genetic.

As for the validity in refering to alcoholism as a disease i think valid points have been made on both sides, HOWEVER i think the true medical definitions of the different types of addiction are so far withdrawn from the general consensus of its meaning that the word 'addiction' has become merely a vulgar buzzword.


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Taking a psychedelic is analogous to life, if you dwell on reaching the end you'll never enjoy the trip!


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5729824 - 06/09/06 06:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
"Addiction is merely a state of mind.

It is neither good nor bad."

Oh really?  :rolleyes:

"You can be addicted to porn, sex, food, video games, the internet.......are these addictions diseases?????"

Uh...duh...yes. Morbid obesity as a result of food addiction is ill-effecting a huge percentage of Americans. Sex addiction? Hello. Where have you been?




I never said that addiction was always good.....just that it's not always bad.
Some addictions can be devastating.
Some addictions are harmless.
What I'm referring to (and the topic of this thread, btw) is calling addiction and disease the same thing.

They are not the same.

An addiction is something you do to yourself.

A disease is something that is done to you by an outside force.

It is fairly simple really.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
    #5729925 - 06/09/06 07:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Any addiction which do not ease, is a disease.


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: slaphappy]
    #5729954 - 06/09/06 08:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It seems foolish to lump these very different states if illness in the same boat.

If disease is any thing that causes me dis ease then my broken toe must be a disease  :cuckoo:

It sounds to me like a catch phrase for leaders (politicians,preachers,Dr's) to claim that we are helpless to everything and need their "help".


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
    #5729955 - 06/09/06 08:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

help = Rx or bible


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: niteowl]
    #5730133 - 06/09/06 10:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I see that you single-handedly have revised and redefined the ICD-9 (International Classification of Diseases codes). How good of you. Addiction is the diametrical opposite of freedom. Addiction is never benign inasmuch as slavery is never benevolent. You, of course, can live by your own definitions of reality if you want to. It seems like you are talking about 'habit,' and even habits are difficult to change. Addiction has nothing to do with inner vs. outer causes because there is no line of delineation between these categories. Things constantly come into and leave our physical bodies, our 'fields' of influence/perception, etc. Dis-ease can be caused by unknown etiology, by breakdown of organic processes at the molecular, cellular, or complete organ level. It does not have to enter in. Addiction is the interplay between volitional behaviors and substances or activities (e.g., gambling, sex, etc.) external to the physical body. We are not just physical bodies.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5730151 - 06/09/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

For those clients who I used to take to meetings, and who did not believe in a higher power howsoever defined (metaphysically), the Higher Power was understood to be the community of AA people. The collective of all members of AA - a family, if you will, of compassionate others with the same predicament - THEY became the Higher Power. Later, as the denseness and downward-to-unconscious trend of their minds lightened up, some of those individuals began to have intuition awakened in themselves. They began to emerge from drunken slumber and some began to have insights into their motivations, then they began to ask 'big' questions about the meaning of life, and lo - spirituality dawned.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5730595 - 06/09/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I can see where you are coming from. I've seen what addiction can do to a family first-hand. It's very sad.

One may indeed feel powerless and even have physical dependency in addiction. However, the mind is powerful. So calling somebody powerless who has a powerful mind saddens me. The 12 steps are nothing more than a way to condition the mind.

That's not to say that it is good or bad. Just a way.

Telling somebody that alcoholism is a disease or that it's cunning and baffling is a way to get people to submit to the message while refraining from personal responsibility. However, that's what most need. A good kick in the ass that doesn't hurt too bad.

Then the program can get down to business and sculpt the mind.


Edited by palmersc (06/09/06 12:36 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Icelander]
    #5730956 - 06/09/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"I once had a partner who was alcoholic. I went with her to some of the meetings. There were some really sensitive souls there. But in the end, AA was the end of the line for them. They were trapped there repeating the same old stories each week for years while they accumulated the yearly coins in recognition of their prison terms."

All it take to be free is a change of perspective.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5731061 - 06/09/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Absolutely true. That's the trick that few are willing to perform.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Icelander]
    #5731617 - 06/09/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, but it is a good trick to know.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5731733 - 06/09/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
All it take to be free is a change of perspective.




:yesnod:

That, change of perspective, can only come from within.

Hoping, that god will save you from yourself, is a waste of time.

To claim, that one has no control, over their addiction, is a cop out.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: niteowl]
    #5732185 - 06/09/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"To claim, that one has no control, over their addiction, is a cop out."

Precisely. One has all the control needed. The world is as we dream it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblespud
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5732203 - 06/09/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
What doesn't God have to do with? What is excluded from God?
Alcoholism is a misdirected attempt at religion, thus sayeth Dr. Carl Jung. Yhere is more than meaningless coincidence at calling alcohol 'spirits,' and the whole Dionysian aspect becomes exaggerated to pathological extremes. Dionysus means 'god of nysus [Greece]'. AA is a yoga-stage-like discipline that Bill Wilson constructed based on his own 4 years of LSD psychotherapy. Since he could not give LSD to alcoholics, he translated his experience down to a very workable program - and this after C.G. Jung told him that religious experience was the answer to the misdirected alcoholics plight. Read Bill's autobiography if you're interested.




That's pretty interesting. I've never seen it in that light  :thumbup:


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: spud]
    #5733176 - 06/10/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"""The topic of spirituality is becoming increasingly interesting to clinicians, psychiatrists, and researchers seeking more ways for people to deal with the temptations of addiction. There are all kinds of addictions, from drugs to cigarettes, to alcohol, to overeating, and even sex. Although modern counseling, support groups, and psychiatry have made great strides in the treatment of addiction and dependency, the patient must want to change before the treatment can be successful, because addiction is tied to a person’s inner self. And that inner self is where spirituality resides.

When a person’s inner self becomes damaged or distorted, their spirituality can become damaged or distorted, resulting in addictive and self-destructive behavior. Some people believe that the key to overcoming addiction lies in organized religion. But although there is a spiritual component to religion, there are vast differences between the two. Many people are very religious and yet have little or no spirituality. On the other hand, many very spiritual people do not hold any particular religious beliefs. The following of certain religious practices may help in overcoming addiction, but the success lies not in the religious nature of the practices, but in the fact that following them helps to heal an addict’s inner self, where spirituality resides.

The ancient spiritual discipline of fasting, the mirror opposite of indulgence, is of particular interest in relation to addition. Many people practice fasting for religious reasons, but its inherent nature is a spiritual one, because it helps to strengthen one’s self-control—a personal resource that is undeniably depletable. Just as muscles strengthen from repeated exercise, practicing regular self-control is necessary to have such control available whenever it is needed. So purposely fasting, even though food is available, helps give a person the strength to say no to any influences that may contribute to an addictive personality. If one can refuse food, the most basic of human needs, then one can learn to refuse destructive substances or influences that are not vital to survival.

The practices of prayer and meditation are also considered important in maintaining sobriety. Alcoholics Anonymous has 12 essential steps for members to follow, one of which says that addicts have "sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out." But although many people think of Alcoholics Anonymous as a religious approach to beating addiction to alcohol, it is actually a spiritual approach to living. Spiritual discipline and character development are emphasized, including humility, confession and amends, forgiveness, acceptance, submission to a Higher Power, ongoing personal moral inventory, and service to others. Recent research also points to the mental health benefits of practices such as forgiveness and acceptance.

Many religious and meditative practices have their roots in establishing and strengthening self-control: focusing attention, maintaining forced silence, repetitive chanting, abstaining from food, often interspersed with silence, meditation, prayer, and contemplation. Such spiritual practices may promote incremental change over time, but they may also result in dramatic epiphanies, or "spiritual awakenings." Such awakenings can cause profound emotional release as a person feels freed from addiction and craving, and stories of such epiphanies are common in Alcoholics Anonymous. In fact, the last of the 12 Steps begins with the words, "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps."

Psychologist Jim Orford once noted that the reversal of a pervasive and persistent problem such as addiction may require a comprehensive "spiritual change" in attitude, character, and values. Noted psychiatrist Carl Jung described such spiritual awakenings in a similar fashion, as huge rearrangements of personality where "ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces … are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate." Clearly, when the faltering of one’s inner self manifests itself through addictive behavior, the path to healing must begin by healing that inner self—the spiritual self."""


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