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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5726434 - 06/08/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Alcoholism is a disease, but it's the only one you can get yelled at for having. 'Damn it, Otto, you're an alcoholic.' 'Damn it, Otto, you have lupus.' One of those two doesn't sound right." -- Mitch Hedberg
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Roker]
#5726500 - 06/08/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Roker said: Help me please - I can't stop screwing around on my wife, it must be a disease because I caught it off my girlfriend who is screwing around on her husband who caught it from the receptionist at his work.
It's not my fault, it is a real illness affecting millions of people all over the world. I'm desperate, I feel an attack coming on. I will have to wait till my wife goes to work, then go next door to my neighbours house and try to relieve the swelling.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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palmersc
Stranger


Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 425
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: AA is a yoga-stage-like discipline that Bill Wilson constructed based on his own 4 years of LSD psychotherapy. Since he could not give LSD to alcoholics, he translated his experience down to a very workable program - and this after C.G. Jung told him that religious experience was the answer to the misdirected alcoholics plight. Read Bill's autobiography if you're interested.
Untrue. The twelve steps were written about 20 years prior to Bill's experiences with LSD. The 12 steps were heavily based on the Oxford group's 6 steps.
The program is now tightly bound to the legal system. Now they got institutions cramming this philosophy down everyone's throat who has a run in with the police. Be it in NA with my "narcotic" marijuana and mushrooms or AA with alcohol.
I will say that since I've had some clean time,it's allowed me to step back and take a good look at alcohol. So it has been a good lesson, but I learned this on my own by reading some philosophy and meditating.
I'm sure you have a lot of studies you could reference to that say such and such gland is improperly functioning etc. which causes people to use drugs excessively. It may have some merit, but it's obvious to me that our environment growing up had the largest influence.
I know I can tame my mind and be in control of it instead of the other way around. The mind is very plastic. If feeling that god is in control makes you feel better do that.
The problem I see is that the program makes people feel worthless and not in control of their own lives. I see those in power using the fact that the mind is so plastic to make people think this program is the way of god.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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You're just plain, simply wrong. Obviously, you don't know the first thing about AA/NA. There is no belief system involved. It is much more like Buddhism and Buddha's attitude. It is a way to the alleviation of suffering. In Buddhism, the cause of suffering is desire - attachment. Addiction is a more profound degree of attachment. The 12 Steps are a 'ladder of attainment' model in which one systematically detaches from addictive behavior and at the lower rungs, one effects 'repairs' to people one has injured along the path of addiction. The highest rungs aim at a transforming religious experience. Since the "transcendent function" is built into the human experience, this becomes a possibility for those seeking transformation of their lives. There has never been any doctrine connected to these principles.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5726661 - 06/08/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i went to an NA meeting once. I was discussing psychedelic psychotherapy with a girl in wake of a bad "trip" on alcohol and she wanted me to go to an NA meeting to see what the other alternative to substance dependency is....
so I agreed if she would listen to an Ann Shulgin MP3.... anyway so we went because she knew people that were in it and it was pretty depressing.
The thing most ridiculous? Everyone sitting outside puffing the hell out of cigarettes then going into the meeting...... right they aren't allowed to drink. "No pot either" but before and after meeting it seems like every one of them puffed up.
Now this isn't fair on my part to judge but.... it just blew my mind. Such a terrible addiction is permitted but they aren't allowed pot ? They can have all the free coffee they want too? Well I mean suit yourself.... toabcco doesn't really get you high or anything but it's a drug and a powerfully addictive one.
what I took away from the meeting was a genuine sadness and empathy for their plights, a feeling of fortune that I never developed a drug dependency problem, and a deep disdain for the drug war.
"institutions, prison, or death" was what a story they were reading talks about.
Two of those are consequences of a drug WAR! Not of a drug! So much could be done to help these addicts if we had more sensible policies.
But yeah I mean. I dunno. If you surrender your life completely to something that feels really good, and turn to it as the only source of your happiness, you can't exactly quit it voluntarily since you have nothing else going on for you in your life... that is why they surrender to a higher power.
someone tell me why the US won't allow Ibogaine clinics?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 01:11 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5726690 - 06/08/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Disease a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning.
If we take Markos position that all mental disorders are mental diseases, then the part of us which is "impairing normal functioning" is our mind.
When we treat a part of the body which has become diseased, must we "let go and let God"? Perhaps this would be an effective aspect of treatment for someone with strong religious faith, as the placebo effect can be quite powerful. For someone with little or no faith, this would probably not benefit their treatment.
If alcoholism (and depression, schizophrenia, psychosis, OCD, etc...) is a disease of the mind, then treatment which directly addresses this part of us will be the most effective.
Which method of treatment will be the most direct would, naturally, vary from mind to mind. My mind is accessed most directly through rationality and scientific testing of methods and ideas. Your mind might be accessed directly with AA's 12 steps, Reichian bodywork, long hikes through the redwoods, or any number of access-points.
IMO, calling alcoholism a "disease" creates a victim-perpetrator dichotomy. Instead of saying "I am engaging in addictive behavior," the diseased alcoholic might say "alcoholism made me do it." If we have a mental/emotional disorder, then it is up to us to restore order. No outside disease perpetrator has broken in to mess up our tidy mental house--we did it.
I believe that taking personal responsibility for dysfunctional choices is STEP ONE in any effective treatment program.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Veritas]
#5726707 - 06/08/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good post as usual Veritas.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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palmersc
Stranger


Registered: 02/23/06
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Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There is no belief system involved.
haha
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: There has never been any doctrine connected to these principles.
just my experience
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: The 12 Steps are brilliant and about the ONLY thing that is curative
so I hear
Not really out to discredit the program. Just pointing out that I'm greatly turned off by the tactics I've been exposed to.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5727513 - 06/08/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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South Park, Season 9, Episode 14.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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"Uh, my name's Randy, and, uh, I just really like beer."
"You have to admit that you're an alcoholic."
"But, I don't really know that I'm an alcoholic."
"Then why are you here?"
"Because I got a DUI, and so I'm required to attend AA meetings for two weeks. I was stupid one night and drank too much, and then drove a car. That was dumb and I'm not going to do it again."
"Randy, you are powerless to make that decision. The only thing that works is the twelve step program. Step one is admitting that you are powerless to control your drinking. Only then can you move on to the other twelve steps, like, believing in a higher power, God, makes you stop drinking, and then turning your life over to that God, and humbly asking God to remove your weaknesses "
"Wait wait wait, hold on, uh, I never knew that Alcoholics Anonymous was a religious thing."
"It's not religious, you just have to admit that there is some kind of God which has power over you and turn your life over to that God and ask him for forgiveness. That's the twelve step program, not religion."
"Look, I really just need to cut down on my drinking and never drive a car drunk again."
"You can't just cut down on your drinking, Randy. You need to know something. You have a disease."
*Randy becomes shocked*
"Uh... a disease?"
"That's right. Alcoholism is a disease. You're sick, Randy. You're very very sick. And just like with most diseases, you can't cure it yourself. And it's deadly!"
Nevertheless, the next scene is Stan walking into his house to find his father, Randy, wrapped up in blankets on the couch, beer bottles laying around everywhere. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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"It's not religious, you just have to admit that there is some kind of God which has power over you and turn your life over to that God and ask him for forgiveness. That's the twelve step program, not religion."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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colimon
DingoDogBoy


Registered: 04/22/06
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Re: alcoholism a diseasea [Re: Gomp]
#5727724 - 06/08/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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that's terrible! addiction isn't a disease! It's a state of mind or physical thing! But where does the disease part come in? where they trying to scare you or something?
-------------------- I believe with the advent of acid we discovered new way to think and it had to do with piecing together new thoughts of mind. Why is it that people think it's so evil? What is it about it that there is scares people so deeply? Because they are afraid that there is more to reality than they have ever confronted. That there are doors that they're afraid to go in and they don't want us to go in there either because if we go in, there we might learn something that they don't know. And that makes us a little out of their control.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: Icelander]
#5727731 - 06/08/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The episode is an interesting one. After his AA meeting, he falls deep into a self-induced sickness, to the point where he is in a wheelchair, proclaiming that only a miracle will save him.
Then a statue of the Virgin Mary begins bleeding out of his ass, and he makes a pilgrimmage to the statue and gets sprayed in the face with the blood. He is cured.
Five days later, the pope visits the statue and declares that it is not actually a miracle, as he determines the blood to be coming from her vagina, not her ass, stating, "A woman bleeding out of her vagina is no miracle. Women bleed out of their vagina all the time".
Randy begins drinking again, until his son shows him how he was not, in fact, powerless over his drinking, and that it was him who was responsible for his going five days without drinking. In the beginning of the episode, the kids are in their karate class, and their teacher is giving them a lesson on discipline. The end of the episode promotes self discipline, as the teacher said, "True discipline comes from within".
The God bit is probably ineffective. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
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alcoholism is an excuse to do nothing...
its gets its roots from the moral majority
Edited by Schwammel (06/08/06 07:40 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: palmersc]
#5728121 - 06/08/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your awareness determines your reality. If you believe that it is an incurable illness that you must forever guard against then it will be that. If you percieve that it is a correctable condition that merely requires taking responsibility for the self, then it is that. I overcame a 15 year bout with alcoholism in about 3 months by becoming self responsible.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
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I agree
to be a successful alcoholic you have to enjoy the moment...
and if you can't do that you're doomed
Edited by Schwammel (06/08/06 07:56 PM)
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: South Park, Season 9, Episode 14.
Quit quoting scripture
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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"What doesn't God have to do with?" "There is no belief system involved." "The highest rungs aim at a transforming religious experience."
This doesn't seem contradictory to you? "There is no belief system involved, just a transforming religious experience."
Furthermore, according to the all-too-pious twelve step program:
"1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs."
(Source: http://www.aa.org/en_services_for_members.cfm?PageID=98&SubPage=117)
Plus, under clinical scrutiny, the success rate of A.A. has been dismal. The University Park Press published an article that showed those who had gone through A.A. drank five times more often than the control group, and nine times more often than those who underwent REBT. I have yet to see any clinical trial that supports the effectiveness of the twelve step program.
But, of course, you can always negate this, again, with "Obviously, you don't know the first thing about AA/NA." Ad hominem makes for a cogent arguement.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (06/08/06 09:47 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I once had a partner who was alcoholic. I went with her to some of the meetings. There were some really sensitive souls there. But in the end, AA was the end of the line for them. They were trapped there repeating the same old stories each week for years while they accumulated the yearly coins in recognition of their prison terms.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: alcoholism a disease [Re: niteowl]
#5728836 - 06/08/06 10:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So much for your 'belief.'
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