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OfflineFrog
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Alcoholics Anonymous
    #2243110 - 01/15/04 02:41 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

I've been debating posting this, but after seeing what a couple of people wrote on another thread, I decided to go ahead.

How do you get an alcoholic to stop drinking?

Here's the scenario: 50 years old, alcoholic since early 20s (or can we at least say "bad drinker"), has entertained sobriety at various times in his life, the last period last for 10 years, until 3 years ago, and now seems like he can't stop, no matter how many DUIs, no matter how many times arrested, no matter how much it affects his family.

How do you get an alcoholic to stop drinking?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2243140 - 01/15/04 03:00 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Were your parents alcoholics at all, or did you know anybody that was close that passed away that was an alcoholic?

Have you heard of alcoholic dimentia? Some of these affects cannot be reversed, and their body has become functionally dependent on the use of alcohol. Sometimes they need to go through treatment programs.

Therapy, counseling sessions could help. SOme people just dont care and they are gonna go where they want. You may not be able to stop them.

Showing them love and care, exposing their beliefs to a different set of ideas.

I remember reading that some Native American Indians use Mescaline as a means to cure alcoholism. Ibogaine is another drug that i have seen a documentary on that has helped some people.

Alternative drug therapy.

Prescription anti-depressents prescribed by doctors?

Counseling.

AA is something they should probably definitely go to. Even if it wont cure him, it might curb his thoughts to a more pro active stance. Might get him to think about his lifestyle and consider those around him, and as well his own well being and life.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2243161 - 01/15/04 03:10 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

The person of whom I speak is not related to me, so I don't think whether my parents were alcoholics is pertinent. However, neither of my parents drank.

It's sad watching this person.

Have you heard of alcoholic dimentia? Some of these affects cannot be reversed, and their body has become functionally dependent on the use of alcohol. Sometimes they need to go through treatment programs.

This makes sense. I was just saying to someone today that this guy seems not be as smart as he once was. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a dumb person. He used to be so smart. Now, he seems like he can't make a decision. It's sad to watch a human being waste away.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2243210 - 01/15/04 03:38 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Alcohol is fucked up. My mother's been a nurse (section head) for more than 20 years now with the V.A. So you can imagine the kind of addiction and psychological shit she deals with on a daily basis. I remember her telling me that of all the shit that people do to themselves, alcohol is real near the top. Aparently, it's the only drug that's been positively shown to be fatal just from withdrawl symptoms.


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If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Shizpow]
    #2243448 - 01/15/04 09:04 AM (13 years, 12 days ago)

i've heard that Ibogaine is a phenomenal way to treat addiction. don't know how it works on alcohol though.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2243796 - 01/15/04 12:54 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

Alcoholics Anonymous doesnt have very good success numbers because it hinges on abstinence. Abstinence and the psychology of addiction dont work together very well. To an addict who is trying to abstain, 1 drink fucks that all up. After one drink, theyve already blown their goal of abstinence, so why not go all out, right?

By saying, "I will never drink again" you are effectively shoving a part of reality under the bed and not dealing with it. The more cognitively responsible thing to do is learn how to drink responsibly. Learn how to balance it out with a producive, happy life.

They have cognitive therapy programs for alcoholics which are much more successful (at least in the documentation Ive seen) than AlAnnon. Cognitive therapy can teach you to drink with intelligence and understand your own limits. They teach you cognitive tricks to figure out those limits, set them, and adhere to them.

unfortunately, this kind of one on one therapy aint free, unlike AlAnonn.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


Edited by DoctorJ (01/15/04 12:55 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2243851 - 01/15/04 01:17 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

How do you get an alcoholic to stop drinking?

You can't. They have to actively seek help. The best that you can do is to talk them in their sober moments and ask them a series of pointed questions trying to get them to see that they first have a problem rather than telling them anything. Then they must see the potential rewards for getting assistance and be willing to follow through.

If this fails, no matter how painful / difficult it is, one must remove themselves as far as possible from the alcoholic's life so as not to get pulled under along with them. Your responsibility towards them is over and you should feel no guilt or shame.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Swami]
    #2243864 - 01/15/04 01:23 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

"If this fails, no matter how painful / difficult it is, one must remove themselves as far as possible from the alcoholic's life so as not to get pulled under along with them. Your responsibility towards them is over and you should feel no guilt or shame."

damn dude, see my best friend is one right now.  his hand shakes really bad and as soon as he has a shot of vodka his hand stops shaking, that's how bad his body needs it.  I've tried asking him about it but he refuses to even acknowledge me when I even refer to it.  it hella sucks cause dude's been my friend for a good 10 years. 

when it's that long of a time, don't you think you would try a little harder than the talk?  I mean I know it's not my responsibility but damnit that's my friend there, :frown:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: kaiowas]
    #2243887 - 01/15/04 01:34 PM (13 years, 12 days ago)

My words are only advice and not gospel.

I lived with two alcoholics. One a roomate who threatedned to kill me while drunk (I moved out the next day); the other a lover who failed in job after job and in school and ruined her health. She blamed her drinking on me. Of course she still drinks heavily years after I am gone, crashed her motorcycle and had a few DUIs. I would have done ANYTHING to help her if she was willing to cooperate. Without that critical element, what can you do?

I also had a best friend who was an alcoholic. I got him into projects and into working out as often as possible. I stopped going out partying with him. Finally ,I encouraged him to get back into his religion, Jehovah's Witness, which he did and got sober and married.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2244939 - 01/15/04 10:36 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: ]
    #2244967 - 01/15/04 10:45 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Yes, I have seen this person quit drinking from time to time only to eat gallon after gallon of ice cream during periods of sobriety.

And I also agree that if there is some kind of legal/familial tie, it might be difficult to remove one's self.

I have decided that this is my karma, to persistently bring this person's bottom up, for the sake of his children. I'm not going to "coddle" him or look the other way. I'm going to make his life difficult every time he drinks, so that evenually he may decide that drinking is just not that much fun.

Is that very bad?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2245018 - 01/15/04 11:01 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2245025 - 01/15/04 11:04 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: ]
    #2245152 - 01/15/04 11:49 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Thank you.

  :heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: ]
    #2245323 - 01/16/04 02:36 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

whats ACOA? What would counterbalance the carbo-hydrate scenario to equal them out?

This may be as a result of heavy drinking. The alcohol turns into sugars through the liver right? Very interesting... good observation!

----------

My mom went to AA meetinga, although she wasnt an alcoholic. She went because of co-dependency. I remember staying over at a ladies house she met from AA, a big drinker i think herself, or her husband and they went together.

She wants me and my brother to go, cause she is always telling us that we could become alcoholics. When i say im gonna drink, she says, "dont drink, its bad for you".. im like, you drinK! "im an adult". My bro drinks, hes 21 so he gets most of the fray. I can understand though, so it doesnt bother me. I actually want to go, maybe i can help some of them there.

Maybe it would be a good idea to be present at times when they want to be alone. Its strange that a lot of real alcoholics will seem to "hide", at least my dad hid that he did it from me, and my brother. He hid alcohol.

Maybe they want to dwell in their own depression and dont want people around. If you can interfere with his drinking environment, you may be able to "bring his bottom up".

Tell him stories of other families who have lost loved ones. Dont force it on him too much, but just lay it out there. Maybe youll be able to stir some motivation.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2245340 - 01/16/04 02:46 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Maybe it would be a good idea to be present at times when they want to be alone. Its strange that a lot of real alcoholics will seem to "hide", at least my dad hid that he did it from me, and my brother. He hid alcohol.





And I don't understand hiding it. If I have some wine, I'm going to drink it from a wine glass out in the open. This guy drinks from coke cans and preferrably when no one is around. I don't think many people realize how serious of a problem he has.

I don't think they hide it because they don't want anyone to interfere with their drinking environment, although you could be right and I could be wrong, or maybe it's semantics.

I think they know they shouldn't be drinking and they don't want anyone to find out. I guess it's the same as saying they don't want anyone to interfere, but more that they don't want anyone to stop them from drinking, or they don't want to be told that the reason their lives are a mess is because of alcohol.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2245353 - 01/16/04 02:53 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Its denial. They dont want anyone to find them doing, they dont want anyone to know how much they are doing. If they dont know, no one can say it is bad. I think they just want to be alone, something makes them want to depart from the rest of the world. Without someone their to analyze them, they do not have to be subjected to changing their ways. So they can keep drinking and drinking, to fill that never ending void. Maybe im wrong about the psychology considered, but i find the social implication and the whole hiding it thing to be rather consipicous considering ive heard it from all the people i know whos family is alcoholic.

It may have something to do with his personality as well, my dad was the same way.

It causes depression. It eats your brain. Its alcohol! Alcohol kills organic material! Their brain is going away, and what keeps them from getting better is because its eating away at the drive which tells them to stop. I wouldnt be surprised if social activity and a healthy brain go hand in hand.

How old is he? Has he had any problems with his liver yet?


--------------------
What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2245371 - 01/16/04 03:00 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Zero, I think you're dead on.

I also looked into his personality trait, because I'm a pseudo-psychologist, and I think he has borderline personality disorder. I think he's depressed, but when he's sober, he is "the nicest person in the world" according to a lot of other people.

Yes, I think it's eating his brain away, and that's sad. I remember when I was in law school, I was having trouble with this one paragraph that was explaining the difference between different types of contracts.

Fuck, no matter how many times I read it, and I read it a lot, I couldn't understand it. So, as a joke, I read it to him, not even thinking he would understand it, but just showing how complicated it was.

After one read, he explained it to me, even though he has not had any college.

Now, when I talk to him, I feel sometimes like I am talking to an idiot, and I mean that literally. It's like he can't make his mind up about the simplest things.

And I think he's probably having trouble with his liver. I heard from someone who knew an alcoholic that the first sign of your liver starting to go is that you get drunker faster than previously, because your liver is becoming unable to process the alcohol.

So he can drink two beers and seem to be instantly drunk.

I liked what you said about "what keeps them from getting better is because its eating away at the drive which tells them to stop".

That makes a lot of sense.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Frog]
    #2245393 - 01/16/04 03:10 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Its really sad at the lengths which alcohol can do to a bodies system, but after all it is poison.

Yeah you are right, his liver isnt functioning at the normal rate due to being overly flooded with alcohol. Its probably all bad looking and has holes in it. It cannot process the alcohol like you said. If it stays this way it wont heal, it will only get worse till it fails and he will need a liver transplant.

My father himself was turning yellow/green, even at his moms funeral. So i hear from the people who saw him at the time. He was going to have to go to the hospital and get a transplant. Something happened with him seeing god or something like that, something religious. Heard he was walking around the streets of the town with a cross around his neck. I really want to find out more about that, find out what happened to him before he died.

Strangely he didnt die of alcohol at all. Not directly anyway. Not even from cancer from smoking. But both contributed. The fall of the cigarette to the couch caused it to sit for house and consume, hosue cought on. His weakened condition kept him from escaping, and he died of smoke inhiliation within his mothers house where he lived at the end of his days.

There may be hope left for him, but i think its important to remember the situation a lot of alcoholics find themselves in. Someone said something about the detremental affects of stop drinking cold turkey can be devastating. I wouldnt rip it from him completely. Looking at the whole carbohyrdate issue may help in changing his diet if looked into some. A change of behavior and some kind of pace.

Usually things to offest repeated behaviors might spark change in the individual. Its only after we have gotten used to our ways for so long that we become trapped in our vision, unable to see the oustide world. Maybe if you can stir something in him, it might break some light for him and give him some kind of chance to save his life and his family.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2245404 - 01/16/04 03:15 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Zero, you have an amazingly astute understanding of the problem, in my opinion.

When I say I want to bring his bottom up, it's to create difficulties in his life that might make him think that life would be easier if he didn't drink. But, I am still being nice to him and helping him when I can, and he must think I'm an absolute nut.

Thank you for discussing this, Zero.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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