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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers  [Re: Icelander]
#6223478 - 10/29/06 10:43 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with the article in that link, but that's a different issue.
If you BUY a CD, you should have the right to copy it for your use on the various devices that play music. What I DON'T think you have a right to do is give a copy to a friend, and even less, put it up on a P2P network for the world to copy for free.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223498 - 10/29/06 10:48 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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You don't think I have the right? 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
#6223525 - 10/29/06 10:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I view taking something you have not been given as theft. And no, I don't think anyone has the right to steal from another.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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aNeway2sayHooray
Cresley Wusher
Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 7,653
Loc: Orphic Trench
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223542 - 10/29/06 11:05 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I view taking something you have not been given as theft.
You also view accepting something you have been given as theft as well.According to your previous post.
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Mad_Larkin said: Death is just a thang.
MrJellineck said: Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223557 - 10/29/06 11:08 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
I view taking something you have not been given as theft. And no, I don't think anyone has the right to steal from another.
Ok that's your point of view. Here's mine. You stole your land (habit) from all the animals that used to live there. Of course they don't have lawyers though.  Survival of the fittest right?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/29/06 11:09 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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The topic is whether or not it's right, not whether or not I should do it. I shouldn't. I stipulate to that.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
#6223576 - 10/29/06 11:14 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Survival of the fittest right?
From an absolute point of view, I agree with you. However, that view, if carried to its ultimate conclusion, would cause the collapse of society and more harm than good overall.
For society to work, there has to be a middle ground, and I think that middle ground is to behave as if stealing is something to be discouraged.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223596 - 10/29/06 11:21 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Culture is not our friend. TM
The collapse of society would not bother me. I'm not a firm believer in the evolution of a just society. For me things are how they are and it's the dream of a passion play. This cannot fit in with your views I know. That does not concern me either. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223618 - 10/29/06 11:31 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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From an absolute point of view, I agree with you. However, that view, if carried to its ultimate conclusion, would cause the collapse of society and more harm than good overall.
I don't see how the competition between businesses isn't survival of the fittest.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
#6223643 - 10/29/06 11:40 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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The collapse of society would not bother me. I'm not a firm believer in the evolution of a just society.
I guess this is where we differ. I'm an optimist; I agree human societies are incapable of being just, but I DON'T think that injustice is an intrinsic property of societies in general. Just human ones.
I envision other planets where survival competition didn't play so prominent a role in the rise of conscious beings and where truly just societies were given rise by beings more selfless than we are.
It's this aggressive nature evolution built into all living things on Earth that results in this ugly world we live in. It doesn't have to be this way, I think, and it's not this way everywhere, I hope.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223683 - 10/29/06 12:01 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why do you say I'm not an optimist? I don't think it's pessimistic to be realistic. I just look beyond the mearly physical for solutions.
And if you think justice is just not in the human realm then I think it would behove you to give your property back to the other animals that might have a chance at it.
The problem I see with your origional post is that you are subjectively picking and choosing this or that to be right and wrong. There must be an emotional attachment here for you.
The world isn't ugly as you say either.(pessimist ) When I look at Vertias and the kids and myself I don't see ugly. I see the full spectrum.
As far as how it is on other planets I doubt it's different but I'm willing to take a chance and hope there is room on your ship. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223701 - 10/29/06 12:08 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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What exactly is the person stealing? The music is still there. When one person downloads music, it does not take the music away from others.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223710 - 10/29/06 12:14 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why do you want to enable large corporations to force us to accept what they want us to have...and drain our wallets while they are at it? The whole entertainment industry could go under for all I care...as a matter of fact the sooner the better.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6223800 - 10/29/06 12:42 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why do you want to enable large corporations to force us to accept what they want us to have...and drain our wallets while they are at it?
Is it alright to steal from WalMart because they're a large corporation 'forcing' us to buy from them?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223813 - 10/29/06 12:48 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I realize that my point was pretty minimal, but I would like you to address it.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223823 - 10/29/06 12:53 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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If I only have to pay once for a single item...no prob, but the media industry is destroying fair use and trying to ensure that you are eventually paying for each use. According to the media industry I cannot make a backup, but this is covered by law...so they can legally deprive me of this? Bullshit. If they can do as they please so can I. I hope these asshole implode. We are better off starting over with a new paradigm. I fear you will find little agreement with your notions of conformity here...
Don't get me started on Walmart..the one where I live started doing searches as you leave and compare your cart contents to your receipt...they force the door greeters to do this. I have mostly quit doing business with them.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: adrug]
#6223841 - 10/29/06 12:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Someone has to rip the songs off the cd to get them into MP3 format...which means someone is buying the cd.
This isn't true. Like with movies, music often ends up on P2P networks before it's released to the public, so by definition, nobody has paid for it yet.
Even so, producing music costs money. There are hundreds of people involved. There are artist who make the cover art, engineers who mix the music, advertising and distribution logistics costs, and more most people who pirate blindly without taking a real look at who their piracy hurts never notice.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
#6223854 - 10/29/06 01:02 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fuck em all. I hope they all get put out of business  You must consider that many people who pirate stuff WANT these companies to lose money.
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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6223857 - 10/29/06 01:05 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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but the media industry is destroying fair use
We're not discussing fair use. That's another thread. We're talking about MUSICIANS' music being taken without the MUSICIANS' permission. As I've already stated, many musicians now self-publish and bypass the music industry entirely.
We're discussing you TAKING for free, without permission, something a musician put emotional energy, money, and time into creating. And further we're discussing you GIVING AWAY on P2P networks something you have not been given by the creator of the music.
Don't get me started on Walmart..the one where I live started doing searches as you leave and compare your cart contents to your receipt...they force the door greeters to do this.
So don't buy there. You're not being forced to shop there, why do you give a shit what they do? You sound like the anti-drug lobby getting pissed off because I use drugs and they don't like that. So long as I'm not forcing my habit on them, they shouldn't give a shit.
So, you didn't answer my question: is it alright to steal from WalMart because, like the music industry, they're rich??
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6223864 - 10/29/06 01:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fuck em all. I hope they all get put out of business
Including self-publishing musicians? Alright...
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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