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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223875 - 10/29/06 03:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Here is a community of self publishing musicians who make a living from charging modest prices for FREE (free to share and copy) music.
http://magnatune.com/
They are aty least searching for a community based paradigm.
More info:
http://magnatune.com/info/press/coverage/usa_today


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223882 - 10/29/06 03:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Third request:

Quote:

So, you didn't answer my question: is it alright to steal from WalMart because, like the music industry, they're rich??




--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223893 - 10/29/06 03:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If they tried charging over and over for the same item...I would take what I wanted. I have no qualms about that.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223908 - 10/29/06 03:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Here is a community of self publishing musicians who make a living from charging modest prices for FREE (free to share and copy) music.
http://magnatune.com/


Yeah, well, I just popped in there and clicked an album at random. Wanna know the price?:

Ordering a Compact Disc typically costs $12.97 ($4.97 more than the download price). Outside the U.S., the price for a CD is $15.97.

That's right about what you pay for a CD at the store, maybe a little less because they don't have brick and mortar overhead. AND it's more expensive than what you pay for a CD at WalMart, ironically.

Here's the link, if you don't believe me: https://magnatune.com/buy/choose?artist=Ammonite&album=Reconnection&genre=Rock


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223911 - 10/29/06 03:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If they tried charging over and over for the same item...I would take what I wanted. I have no qualms about that.

How many times does a record store charge you for a CD?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223916 - 10/29/06 03:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

By the way, I copy music too. The difference between us is that I don't kid myself about it. I am a thief.





So you steal and admit to being a thief and that somehow makes you better than the person who doesn't consider copying music to be stealing? Perhaps you could elaborate on why being an honest thief is preferable to being a dishonest kind of thief? Granted, honesty is usually the best policy but when it comes to dishonest activities does that still apply?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Posts: 10,662
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223925 - 10/29/06 03:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You are not allowed to copy modern cds because of DRM. When the CD gets damaged you are expected to buy another one. Most online mp3 retailers are heading for a DRM based subscription model where you pay constantly or the files are disabled.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6223926 - 10/29/06 03:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Lunar, you're WAY off topic. This thread is about music piracy, not about Diploid. If you wanna discuss Diploid, I'm all for it. Start another thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6223938 - 10/29/06 03:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There seem to be two ethical issues being questioned in this thread:

1.  Is it ethical to pirate music, either by copying CD's or downloading MP3 files from internet sites?

2.  Is it ethical for recording companies to restrict access to copyrighted works, to charge whatever the market will bear for said works, and to prosecute those who violate copyright laws.

It is not enough, IMO, to consider the consequences of actions when questioning the ethical nature of said actions.  To measure ethics merely by the consequences is to operate on the "adolescent" level of ethical development (i.e. crime and punishment).

The basic definition of "steal" is to take (the property of another) without right or permission. If we decide that stealing is "ethically questionable" (as my ethics prof liked to say), then this would refer to ANY incident of taking property without permission.  Whether that property is material or intellectual is not the issue.  If the property does not belong to you, and you take it, you are stealing it from the rightful owner.

As to the ethical nature of recording companies applying existing copyright laws to the distribution of their intellectual property, this seems fairly clear cut to me.  They have made a deal with the creative artists, paid for their creative work, and now retain the right to distribute that "property" as they see fit.  If they bought a painting, they would have the absolute right to prosecute someone who stole it.

Those who would like music to be available at low or no cost are free to give away their creative works, to encourage artists to avoid recording contracts, and even to provide a pull-out couch for said artists to sleep on while they give away their music.  :wink:

Worthy of further discussion:  does someone else's unethical behavior excuse one's own in return?  What if the recording exec's were totally unethical in their restriction of music being distributed...does this justify or "ethicalize" the act of stealing?

P.S. I copy CD's from the library & from friends, load them onto my computer & into my iPod.  I think it is unethical, I think that it has no consequences for the artists (I woudn't buy the CD's if I could not get them for free), and that is OK with me.

I don't excuse it, I don't justify it by citing huge prices on CD's, I just do it because I want to and I enjoy the music.  :shrug:  I also purchase CD's and MP3's, and enjoy that music just as much.  I don't download music from free sites because I am paranoid about computer viruses.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223949 - 10/29/06 03:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You are not allowed to copy modern cds because of DRM. When the CD gets damaged you are expected to buy another one. Most online mp3 retailers are heading for a DRM based subscription model where you pay constantly or the files are disabled.

That sucks, I agree with you, but that's not what we're discussing here.

We're discussing whether or not it is right to take a musicians creative work without his permission, not the technicalities of DRM and its consequences for a damaged CD.

Specifically, to simplify this since you all are having trouble understanding the NARROW topic of this thread: if a musician self-publishes music from which he makes his living, are you in the right by copying his music without his permission, and further, are you in the right by putting his music up on P2P for millions of others to copy without his permission?

Please, stay on topic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6223957 - 10/29/06 03:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Is it ethical for the recording industry to subvert copyright law with DRM...forcing users to pay over and over? They face no prosecution for this why should downloaders?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223980 - 10/29/06 03:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're confusing ethics with law. I don't believe that DRM is ethical, but it is legal. (For now.) Laws and ethics often do not agree. (Illegal drugs? WTF??)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223985 - 10/29/06 03:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Alright, since you won't stay on topic, I'll disengage from you now. Feel free to answer my on-topic question, however, if you change your mind.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6223987 - 10/29/06 03:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In any case I predict that the open information model will prevail...even within the next decade. The internet will force it. There have been no successful prosecutions of music downloading...the cases are dismissed right and left...only a few people have settled out of court. The whole system is failing rapidly.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/14/04
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6224002 - 10/29/06 03:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

True...I guess my opinion is colored by the fact that I am used to not even caring about the law...while I do sometimes consider ethics as an appropriate guideline to operate under within society. It must also be said that ethics are merely determined by the culture...they are not universal.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224007 - 10/29/06 03:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's nice to see P$S really ingaged. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224026 - 10/29/06 03:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Yeah, well, I just popped in there and clicked an album at random. Wanna know the price?:"

I know, but it is DRM free.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224029 - 10/29/06 03:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We're discussing whether or not it is right to take a musicians creative work without his permission




I would say to the musicians it is all right to take your work without your permission as long as I do it honestly and without remorse. If you don't like it, well too bad come take my computer if you want your songs back. In fact, your songs sucked to be honest with you and I deleted them some time back from my computer and threw out the CDs. Techno disco syntho repeating sound effects like nails on a chalkboard. Good luck getting anyone to actually buy that stuff...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6224036 - 10/29/06 03:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I know, but it is DRM free.

Aaac! How many times do I have to say this. This is not a 'DRM ethics' discussion, it's a 'taking music you have not been given' discussion.

I answered.

Where? NONE of my questions are rhetorical. Here are two I can't find the answer to:

How many times does a record store charge you for a CD?

asked because you claim it's alright to steal from WalMart if they tried to charge you more than once for the same thing, which neither WalMart nor music stores do.

And then there's this one:

if a musician self-publishes music from which he makes his living, are you in the right by copying his music without his permission, and further, are you in the right by putting his music up on P2P for millions of others to copy without his permission?

Leave DRM out of this or start a DRM thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6224039 - 10/29/06 03:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Music Pirates?



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