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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
The Ethics of Cheating
    #6879487 - 05/06/07 08:46 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

A study of graduate university students has found a that a lot of them anonymously self-reported routinely cheating on exams and buying term papers from online sources to submit as their own.

Follow up studies found that these same students later in life self-reported cheating in their professional and personal lives.

It seems to me that when one finds himself immersed in a society of cheaters, honesty becomes a liability, not a virtue.

Say, for example, that everyone around you cheats by exactly $1,000 on their tax return every year and they all get away with it. If you're honest on your taxes, at the end of the year, you'll be effectively out $1,000, relative to your peers. That's like a vacation everyone else went on that you couldn't afford.

In this scenario, would it be ethical for you to join in on the $1,000 yearly theft or would ethics still bind you to honesty even if all it does is make you effectively $1,000 poorer?

Can ethics be absolute or is it relative to your surroundings?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879551 - 05/06/07 09:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Personally, It matters diddley squat what others are doing, ethics is a personal matter of choice. I can choose to cheat on an exam, taxes, in business; or I can choose to not cheat -(which I do)

At the end of the day, what matters to me is how I feel about myself and my accomplishment(s).


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: hummermania00]
    #6879558 - 05/06/07 09:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

How would you feel about stealing $1,000 if everyone else was doing it too?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879586 - 05/06/07 10:03 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

You are not out anything, nor are you poorer by not getting something you never had -
whether someone else procured it honestly, OR dishonestly....
I also understand that a lot of people would justify their dishonest actions by exclaiming the weak "but, everybody is doing it" excuse....  :rolleyes:

When the IRS notices the cheating, the consequences will be much much worse than the $1000 they got for "free"....
And this would no more make you richer by not having to face the consequences of being dishonest....

(Have you ever noticed that when you take "The IRS" and make it into one word, you get "Theirs".....!??    IRONY....!?  :lol:  )

Cheating on tests is only cheating one's self out of the correct knowledge in one's chosen future trade/career....

I would say the ethics are absolute - at least in these case scenarios....
Even in your post you referred to the wrong choice as being cheating and/or dishonest - because it is....  :smile:    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: hummermania00]
    #6879591 - 05/06/07 10:06 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

You're being very vague in my opinion and kind of off topic, the question was clear and I think it must be viewed also from a social context. You saying that: At the end of the day, what matters to me is how I feel about myself and my accomplishment(s). concerns only you and your own mind set.

Getting back to the subject, I think that ethics are relative but still have an importance, it's very hard to tell which is the right thing since there are so many conflicts of interest. What's "good" and constructive for a group of people is destructive for others.
From which point of view are we choosing really to look and analyze this matter?

Morality is something that is capable of malleability, it's something that evolves and changes along with human structure and society's as well as individual's needs. This requires a more complex view on morality not a fixed set of rules.
Ethics and morality as we know that have a small relevance when it comes to understanding human beings in their complexity and diversity.

A big role in considering and setting ethics depend on what other people think. What a kind of society can find as being totally outrageous, some other kind of society can view it as being ethical.
If we choose th adhere to a set on universal ethics we can easily fall into the absolutism trap which in extent might stop us from being able to observe the multitude of factors which have an influence on our lives.

Could it be that the ethics of reciprocity is the one that's getting closer to what could make a system work?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879605 - 05/06/07 10:22 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
How would you feel about stealing $1,000 if everyone else was doing it too?




Once again, it matters not to me what eveyone else is doing. I am not a lemming. I make choices based on what I feel is the right outcome for me. In this case the right outcome is that I don't cheat.

Here are other scenario's:
- do you cheat your grow partners out of portions of their end? not me.
- do you cheat other family members out of any portion of inheritance left to them? not me.

My personal choice is to not cheat or steal from anyone. If I find a wallet with cash in it, the rightful owner will get it back. If I find cash loose, with no attachment to anyone then it is fairly mine.

For me it is all about a choice I make. If I say (to myself) that "everyone" else is doing it, I am simply justifying that choice so that I can avoid my own negative feelings about making a decision that I know I would not otherwise make.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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Invisiblegoobler
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879606 - 05/06/07 10:23 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I would not cheat, goes against my core values that I hold important to myself


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6879613 - 05/06/07 10:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So, 1 person thinks it is ethical, or sees nothing wrong with rape and murder.
Does that mean everyone can now join in?


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879615 - 05/06/07 10:32 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It seems to me that when one finds himself immersed in a society of cheaters, honesty becomes a liability, not a virtue.

Only if financial gain is your sole system of measuring value.

I find my personal sense of character, integrity and congruence to be more valuable than money or possessions. To compromise (lose) that sense would be far more costly than $1,000 (or even $1,000,000) gained by lying.

Others obviously do not see their integrity as valuable.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: hummermania00]
    #6879622 - 05/06/07 10:37 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hummermania00 said:
So, 1 person thinks it is ethical, or sees nothing wrong with rape and murder.
Does that mean everyone can now join in?




I mean everything is relative, read my post again :rolleyes:
Murder can be very well justified in many reasons, one if them is self defense.
What about euthanasia? Personally I consider it (in some cases) a lot more ethical then just leaving a person in total suffering or prolonged coma.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6879627 - 05/06/07 10:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

hummermania00 said:
So, 1 person thinks it is ethical, or sees nothing wrong with rape and murder.
Does that mean everyone can now join in?




I mean everything is relative, read my post again :rolleyes:
Murder can be very well justified in many reasons, one if them is self defense.
What about euthanasia? Personally I consider it (in some cases) a lot more ethical then just leaving a person in total suffering or prolonged coma.




I agree with you completly on the self-defense and euthansaia.

What I don't agree with is that ethics can be measured on a sliding scale.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6879630 - 05/06/07 10:42 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If everything is relative, then wouldn't the morality of rape be relative, too?

Is it always wrong for one human to force sexual intercourse on another human?

If so, then morality is NOT relative. If not, why not?

Then we take it back to Diploid's example--cheating on your taxes. Is it wrong? Under what circumstances, or from whose moral standpoint, would it be right?

Where do we draw the lines for ourselves and others, if everything is relative?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: goobler]
    #6879648 - 05/06/07 10:53 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

goobler said:
I would not cheat, goes against my core values that I hold important to myself



:thumbup:

Just like I maintain a work ethic, even if my co-workers are slacking off.


--------------------


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879691 - 05/06/07 11:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yes only that there a HUGE difference between the use of common sense and ethics.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6879699 - 05/06/07 11:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"Yes" to which question?

Could you elaborate on the difference you see between the application of "common sense" and that of ethical or moral decision-making?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6879743 - 05/06/07 11:31 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Murder can be very well justified in many reasons, one if them is self defense.




If it is self defense, it isn't murder....   
Murder has the distinct characteristic of being unlawful....
(unless I am just misinterpreting your words again....!)  :lol:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6879749 - 05/06/07 11:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, it would be more general (and less legalistic) to say "killing another human" rather than "murder."

There are some situations in which killing another human would be ethically correct, but none in which murder would be correct.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879781 - 05/06/07 11:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly....  :thumbup:

I think that I am also being overly critical of MushroomTrip's choice of words for some reason this morning....  :sherlock:
She prolly~ intended to mean "killing" rather than "murder" in the first place....    :smile:

***repeats to myself ten times***
"lighten up doood"   

:tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879795 - 05/06/07 11:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In raw evolutionary terms, not cheating when you have high confidence in your ability to get away with it puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage?

Agree or disagree?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879820 - 05/06/07 11:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I remain to true to myself, not to societies laws and definitions. To discuss the ethics of cheating one must define cheating. As far as cheating on University exams and papers...well your only cheating yourself in that case.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879822 - 05/06/07 11:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Raw evolutionary terms = survival of the fittest

When we are dealing with humans we must be careful as to how we define "fittest." Humans are unique animals, as they can hasten their own demise through their habitual emotional states. Assuming the presence of a conscience, the drawbacks of engaging in unethical acts could far outweigh the benefits.

Cheating on your taxes is probably not creating a significant evolutionary advantage, as those who do not cheat will probably still live & pass on their genetic material.

If you want to reduce the choice to: steal or die, lie or watch your offspring killed, cheat or face castration--then we might be able to define this as an evolutionary imperative.

Anything which does not interfere or does not aid physical survival or transmission of genetic material is NOT an evolutionary imperative.

So, given the example of your Original Post: disagree.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6879855 - 05/06/07 12:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

As far as cheating on University exams and papers...well your only cheating yourself in that case.

That depends.

If your cheating peers graduate near the top of the class and later land the cushy high-paying job you wanted but didn't get because your grades were a little lower, then did you cheat yourself or did you play the chump?

I think you played the chump.

In the end, you're both essentially competent at the profession, but your ethics reduced your income and standard of living and gave you back nothing at all in exchange.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879890 - 05/06/07 12:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Your conclusion assumes that obtaining that high-paying job, wherein grades falsely obtained count more than actual qualifications, is the only winning outcome of the situation.

Perhaps the environment in which applicants are judged primarily by numbers would not be appropriate for someone with ethics and and conscience, and thus there would be nothing gained by compromising one's values in order to obtain employment in said workplace.

Also at issue in this situation is the internal environment created by perceived ethical violations. The only person you can't ever get away from, as long as you live, is yourself. Why create a self which does not align with your personal values?

Quote:

gave you back nothing at all in exchange.




Perhaps nothing which you can put on your resume, or show off in your driveway, but perhaps something worth more than any external reward.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6879897 - 05/06/07 12:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Exactly....  :thumbup:

I think that I am also being overly critical of MushroomTrip's choice of words for some reason this morning....  :sherlock:
She prolly~ intended to mean "killing" rather than "murder" in the first place....    :smile:

***repeats to myself ten times***
"lighten up doood"   

:tongue:


>^;;^<




:mad: :rofl2:

Don't you pick on Sherlock :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879902 - 05/06/07 12:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In raw evolutionary terms, not cheating when you have high confidence in your ability to get away with it puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage?

Agree or disagree?




Agree.
Being drawn by the thought of being able of getting away with it puts a stop to being in need for actually learning.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879907 - 05/06/07 12:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Why create a self which does not align with your personal values?

Well, but this is part of my point. Because cheating doesn't jive with my personal values, getting ahead that way won't work for me.

BUT, if I didn't have a pesky conscience to live with, cheating would put me at a relative advantage in life relative to my peers and wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, so why not do it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879931 - 05/06/07 12:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BUT, if I didn't have a pesky conscience to live with, cheating would put me at a relative advantage in life relative to my peers and wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, so why not do it?




Well you were talking about an evolutionary disadvantage, which will happen if you choose to cheat.
This doesn't mean that you won't be relaxed of it, what's the contradiction here?
One could sleep very relaxed trusting in his/hers cheating abilities and save one of a lot of stress but still put a stop to one's evolution in knowledge.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879933 - 05/06/07 12:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think that those who live without a conscience are already at a great disadvantage, and to compare oneself unfavorably to them is absurd.  :shrug:

I like having a conscience, I believe that it is inextricably linked with empathy, compassion, and the ability to deeply enjoy being alive.  I would not amputate my conscience for all the $$ and toys in the world.

Rather than feel unfairly "held back" compared to those without that pesky conscience, IMO it would be more appropriate to feel deep sympathy for all that they cannot experience.


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InvisibleJackthaTripper
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879942 - 05/06/07 12:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In this scenario, would it be ethical for you to join in on the $1,000 yearly theft or would ethics still bind you to honesty even if all it does is make you effectively $1,000 poorer?

Can ethics be absolute or is it relative to your surroundings?





From what I've learned there are two basic diametrically apposed methods for evaluating ethical situations: Utilitarianism and Duty Based. If you believe in Utilitarianism you believe that the end justifies the means so you could believe that it would be ok to take the money because it helps to maximize your utility (at the expense of another persons displeasure). If Duty Based ethics is more your bag then you see the world through the eyes of the golden rule. In this case you would see the stealing as a poor ethical choice as you know you are defrauding somebody and the consequence of you losing money is irrelevant.

However, the real answer is it is all in the eye of the beholder because ethical choices are subjective.


--------------------


Come on breakthrough with me...such wonders terrify the soul...it's real no need to question...knowledge infiltrates the host


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879951 - 05/06/07 12:42 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I believe that [conscience] is inextricably linked with ... the ability to deeply enjoy being alive

feel deep sympathy for all that they cannot experience.


You're projecting.

You can't know that another with no conscience isn't experiencing as fulfilling a life as you are. For all you really know, living without a conscience frees you to enjoy and experience life more fully than with one.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879958 - 05/06/07 12:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
In raw evolutionary terms, not cheating when you have high confidence in your ability to get away with it puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage?
.
Agree or disagree?





Disagree....

For discussion, I will talk as though evolution is "it"  (for discussion)....  :wink:
If we were evolving Darwin style, then the only true way to answer the question of
advantage or disadvantage, is to know what we were (as a species) evolving into....

If one was to speculate that for the ultimate survival as a life form, the species
(humans, being the highest thinking lifeforms that we think we know of)
is evolving in the direction of being perfection as life (in every aspect)....

As we expand and change intellectually as a species, and as time moves forward,
we are arguably "becoming" more civilized (as it relates to our "known" historic timeline and events)....
Since it is evolution, as a species, we know that being civilized lets all as a whole have a better chance at survival....

Evolving to the speculative "life as perfection" , do you think cheating would benefit as a survival advantage
if a perfect intellectual and physical species was the true course goal of evolution....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879965 - 05/06/07 12:50 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

While I have never personally experienced living without a conscience, I have been engaged in an in-depth study of Sociopathology, including many first-person accounts, for over 15 years.

I probably know as much as it is possible to know about life without a conscience, without actually having had the subjective POV.  :shrug:

I cannot say for certain that life without a conscience is terrible, yet all the evidence at hand supports this conclusion.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879967 - 05/06/07 12:50 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Is it always wrong for one human to force sexual intercourse on another human?




Not if it was Cinco de Mayo in Vegas and the other was a hottie and totally drunk on margueritas - but enough about last night...


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Veritas]
    #6879974 - 05/06/07 12:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I'll defer to your knowledge on the subject, but a question:

The sociopaths I've known about appear unhappy only because their behavior is at odds with our laws which either land them in jail (making them unhappy) or cause them to curb their natural behavior to avoid jail (making them unhappy).

So, are they unhappy because they're sociopaths or because society restricts their nature?

Edit: also, I think you're referring to people pathologically sociopathic. I believe there are many functional sociopaths in society who have no conscience about cheating or stealing if they can get away with it but who won't kill anyone either. A partial conscience of sorts. And I think those people live as fulfilling lives as anyone else and sleep perfectly fine at night even though they know they're cheats and thieves.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6879991 - 05/06/07 12:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I would not cheat on graduate exams because I feel I would be forgoing the preparation and gaining of knowledge necessary to do well on the exam without cheating. This knowledge can then be employed later in crucial activities where the option to cheat are not present.

I also would not cheat because I feel I have the ability to perform just as well, if not better, than someone who cheats on an exam.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6880004 - 05/06/07 01:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I guess they can't miss what they have never had.  :shrug:

My study on the topic has led me to conclude that the "something" which is missing from those who lack a conscience, whether this lack allows them to cheat without guilt or serially murder other humans in a ritualistic manner, is crucial to experiencing the fullest potential of being human.

I liken the inner experience of those with severe attachment disorders (aka sociopaths) to that of the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz.  Hollow inside, with nothing but a fading echo resulting from other's attempts to tap on their chest.  Without a heart, without empathy, without conscience, without compassion, without depth and inner substance, they simply are not capable of experiencing what I find most wonderful about being human.

But that's just my value system talking.  :wink:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6880006 - 05/06/07 01:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If your cheating peers graduate near the top of the class and later land the cushy high-paying job you wanted but didn't get because your grades were a little lower, then did you cheat yourself or did you play the chump?
.
I think you played the chump.
.
In the end, you're both essentially competent at the profession, but your ethics reduced your income and standard of living and gave you back nothing at all in exchange.




If you cheated thru all of your tests to get high grades, to get a good'er job,
your work performance would show, and you might get fired as a consequence.... 
Who's the chump....?

And if it is your first job, you are gaining a career and gaining a paying job, not reducing your income and standard of living....!?  :lol:
**Most** companies recognize the value of a good knowledgeable hard working honest person by moving him/her to a higher income....
If you are not getting paid what you think you "should" be paid,
then it is time to talk to the boss, and/or find someone who will pay you what you want....    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6880045 - 05/06/07 01:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

your work performance would show, and you might get fired as a consequence....




Bush's cheating in the National Guard, constant lying, reneging on campaign promises and poor performance in office in nearly every endeavor won him a second term.

So much for your theory.


--------------------


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880051 - 05/06/07 01:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Politics is always the exception to the rule, as they, make the rules....!    :lol:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6880060 - 05/06/07 01:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The general populace voted him in again, not Washington DC.


--------------------


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880112 - 05/06/07 01:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Has there been any presidents that haven't done all of that dishonest shtuff~....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #6880120 - 05/06/07 01:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Has there been any presidents that haven't done all of that dishonest shtuff~....?


>^;;^<



Probably the most honest president, at least in the past century, was Jimmy Carter. And historians generally rank his presidency as a failure.


--------------------


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880126 - 05/06/07 01:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

your work performance would show, and you might get fired as a consequence....




Bush's cheating in the National Guard, constant lying, reneging on campaign promises and poor performance in office in nearly every endeavor won him a second term.

So much for your theory.




So, an exception to a trend means that the trend is automatically falsified? That doesn't seem sound to me.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Redstorm]
    #6880220 - 05/06/07 02:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In a usual corporate job review, there are maybe 1 to 3 managers overlooking your performance and ofenttimes one's performance is not readily visible or obvious to the reviewers.

In Bush's case, his egregious blunders are there for public scrutiny and he has 200,000,000 reviewers for his performance.

So this single 'exception' is a strong case that performance and position do not necessarily go hand in hand. We could also look at CEOs getting paid millions while running their corporations into the ground.


--------------------


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6880466 - 05/06/07 03:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

And we could also look at the large majority of CEO's who do not run their business into the ground.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6883110 - 05/07/07 04:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
How would you feel about stealing $1,000 if everyone else was doing it too?




How would you feel about invading Iraq if everyone else was doing it?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6885436 - 05/07/07 07:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
How would you feel about invading Iraq if everyone else was doing it?




What are you talking about? :what:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6885503 - 05/07/07 07:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, what does Iraq have to do with the price of tea?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6888016 - 05/08/07 08:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What is it you don't understand?


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6888019 - 05/08/07 08:20 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Similie; and demonstrating the argument is situational.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6888134 - 05/08/07 09:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why create a self which does not align with your personal values?

Well, but this is part of my point. Because cheating doesn't jive with my personal values, getting ahead that way won't work for me.

BUT, if I didn't have a pesky conscience to live with, cheating would put me at a relative advantage in life relative to my peers and wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep, so why not do it?




One of the best examples I can think of on the subject of cheating is the game of golf. The entire foundation of the game is based on the individual player having the integrity to follow, and apply, the rules to themselves. In other words, call yourself on rules infractions and report the same to your fellow competitors.

Interestingly, I read a study (from where i can't remember) some years ago that sort of parallels the one you quoted at the start of the post.
In essence, the researchers targeted golfers that cheat, and questioned them on a whole number of areas in their lives. The conclusion was that people who cheat in golf, will also cheat on their taxes, cheat on a monogamous relationship, cheat in business, or in any aspect of their lives that the occasion permits.

The point here, IMO, is that cheating is usually not an isolated incident. If one will engage in cheating in one aspect of life, it will likely carry over into other areas of their lives with lying, stealing, (which is "cheating" on taxes) false claims, etc.

If that fits in with with ones perception of values, then so be it. My suspicion though, is that a whole number of people run into a lot of grief in their lives due to dishonesty.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Lakefingers]
    #6888644 - 05/08/07 12:43 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Similie; and demonstrating the argument is situational.

Your comment doesn't apply here. I'm not talking about doing something because everyone else does, as in going with the flow, not making waves, and such, which is what your Iraq comment goes to.

What I'm talking about is that there are two ways for your situation to lag behind where you would like it to be with respect to some social benchmark. Quality of life, in this context.

1. Everyone else moves ahead and you don't

2. You move backward and everyone else stays in place

My contention is that if everyone else is cheating and getting away with it, and if you could too but don't, then #1 applies. Everyone else moves ahead, gets a better job, has more toys, and arguably is happier than you who stick to your ethics and relatively fall behind.

This presumes the functional sociopath Veritas and I discussed, not the pathological sociopath who clearly is unhappy. These are people who seem happy, well adjusted, and functional even though they are cheats and know it.

I think most of us fall into that category. For example, I consider myself an essentially honest person, but I know that I'm a thief in that I download music and other intellectual property that doesn't belong to me. That is theft no matter how people uncomfortable with the label "thief" try to rationalize it.

So, while I know I am mildly sociopathic by way of being a thief, I'm still happy and at the end of the year, have a few extra bucks in my pocket to spend on ice cream that I would otherwise not have if I'd payed for the music I stole, and which many (most) others steal too. From that point of view, I get all benefit and no drawback compared to my more-ethical peers.

See what I mean?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: Diploid]
    #6888723 - 05/08/07 01:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

As I wrote here many years ago, I created some landmark software that took me seven years to develop. After being pirated so badly that I made less than peanuts for my efforts, I never developed privately again - a possible loss for myself and a portion of humanity.

Other inventors, artists and musicians may also stop contributing because of theft and we may all be the poorer for that.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Ethics of Cheating [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6888735 - 05/08/07 01:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There is too much inventing (and venting) going on anyway. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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