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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Silversoul]
    #6228527 - 10/30/06 10:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I accept that your answer to a VERY clear and simple YES/NO question is 'maybe' whenever you find it inconvenient to answer directly, but you have to accept that I will not debate someone who does that. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6229768 - 10/31/06 06:21 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So wait why do they call it pirating and not stealing most the time? Is it because technically pirating isnt stealing? Why take the time to first show an add that says dont pirate music, and then show a commercial that says pirating music is stealing music? Why not simply start with don't steal music, if there is no definitive difference Those commercials make me laugh, theyre alot like those anti-pot commercials.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6229835 - 10/31/06 07:24 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

While pirating of music may not be completely ethical , neither is any possible way of living in this world. It is impossible to live in a way that never does harm to any sentient beings, and thats simply the world we live in. Thats why we must adhere to our own principles.

As for this crusade on pirating, the vast majority of those behind this movement are not musicians. They just attatch on to this virtuous idea of it being for the musicians sake, and use it to promote their own cause. Maybe those who are pirates are menaces to society, but they arent menaces to the music world.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6229992 - 10/31/06 09:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So wait why do they call it pirating and not stealing most the time? Is it because technically pirating isnt stealing?

You're arguing semiotics, not ethics.

You can call murdering someone: offing them, clobbering them, wasting them. They're all murder.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230016 - 10/31/06 09:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

While pirating of music may not be completely ethical , neither is any possible way of living in this world.

But taking music that has not been given to you is not an unavoidable consequence of living, it is a deliberate choice. You can't rob a bank and excuse your behavior by stating that unethical behavior is an unavoidable part of life.


As for this crusade on pirating, the vast majority of those behind this movement are not musicians. They just attatch on to this virtuous idea of it being for the musicians sake, and use it to promote their own cause.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. The music industry is run by a bunch of assholes, but as I've said, stealing from an asshole is still stealing.

And that's my main point. Piracy is stealing. Whether you chose to do it anyway is for you to decide, but you should at least do it with both eyes open and in the honest knowledge that you're a thief.

"To thine own self be true", or something like that...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6230093 - 10/31/06 10:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

but my point about that is that there is a difference between taking "information" than taking something that is physical. When you take information, they still have that information. when you take someones orange, they dont have it anymore. I think thats a very important distinction in this debate of ethics.



"You can call murdering someone: offing them, clobbering them, wasting them. They're all murder."

those are all subgenres of murder. What i am saying is that pirating music is fundamentally different then stealing.

And that is why they call it pirating!


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Icelander]
    #6230102 - 10/31/06 10:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Guilt is what this thread is all about. :grin:




And thats what this whole argument of "pirating is stealing" is all about


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230111 - 10/31/06 10:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hey I'm the one who answered Diploids question the way he wanted. I hope he sends me some trick or treat candy or at least some free music. (Trance/electronica please) :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6230145 - 10/31/06 10:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
While pirating of music may not be completely ethical , neither is any possible way of living in this world.

But taking music that has not been given to you is not an unavoidable consequence of living, it is a deliberate choice. You can't rob a bank and excuse your behavior by stating that unethical behavior is an unavoidable part of life.





About robbing a bank, what your excuse applies to here is the law. Itd be a big mistake to think that societies laws are really based on ethics.

Sorry to say this but pretty much everything you do is going to have a butterfly effect on others, whether they are aware of that or not.

Should people not drive cars because they sometimes hit little animals on the road? Even if it doesnt happen every time you drive your car, it is going to happen sometime no matter how good a driver you are.

I realize that some musicians are going to be hurt by piracy. But making a living making music has got to be one of the greatest things in the world. If they can just get by being a music, they have one of the greatest gifts in my opinion. If they cant get by, get a day job, like the rest of us.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230167 - 10/31/06 10:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Let me put it this way. If we always did the completely ethical, not counting the necessities of life, we would be forced to huttle in a corner our entire lives, afraid of stepping on an ant.

What is happening is inevitable, so why not look on the bright side :grin:

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
I believe in what alot of people have said.

The music industry is an overly complex system that is applied to music, which is all about simplicity. I think this is completely evident when you look at the record sales charts, and realize that most the ones dominating shouldnt even call themselves artists.

Music piracy is generally a good thing for music. (compared to the music industry) Its a simplification of the system, which stifles good music. All those who are exploiting the musicians in the industry are now out of the picture. Self promotion is simple with internet. Also this simplification makes the listener rely less on the superficialitys of what surrounds the music, and rely more on the actual content. This is one aspect that would weed out the bad music.

With an essencially unlimited library, musicians are going to have more influences and in turn be BETTER musicians. Along with that It will also weed out the musicians who are not in it for the right reasons. (the dreams of being a mega-millionaire musician) The quality artists however, are not in it for the money, and being able to get by in this type of lifestyle is reward enough for them, so they will stay.

In turn people are going to be forced to listen to good music :eek:, because the bad ones are continually weeded out in this lack of system.

Generally the laws of survival of the fittest will take over in a free music society. And I think that in a free music society musicians could get the money they DESERVE.

Piracy not only makes music BETTER, but makes people more apt to listen to music, since you can download it for free, and music makes the world a better place.




--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230227 - 10/31/06 11:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

but my point about that is that there is a difference between taking "information" than taking something that is physical.

I don't agree with you.

The determination of whether or not an action is stealing revolves around whether or not you had permission to take it, not around how much damage it causes the person from whom it was taken.

Your argument is like saying that if I lie to you about something that doesn't affect or harm you in any way, I didn't lie. That's not the case. A lie is a lie, and whether the lie causes material harm or not doesn't change what it is.

Or taking someone's garbage before they throw it out. It doesn't matter that it's garbage, has no value to anyone, and was about to be discarded by its owner. Taking it without permission before it is discarded is theft.

And that what you steal is not physical when you steal intellectual property without permission doesn't change the fact that you stole something.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230238 - 10/31/06 11:26 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

OK, so by your logic, "embezzling" isn't stealing, because they call it something else.  Ditto for "mugging," "burgling," "fraud," "forgery," etc...etc...

:rolleyes:

It is called pirating because that term describes the specific method of theft, harkening back to the days when pirates would board ships at sea, steal their cargo, and re-sell the cargo for a profit.


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Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Diploid]
    #6230247 - 10/31/06 11:32 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Comon then why did they come up with this or accept this word "pirating".

Why in the commercials do they not just say "Dont steal music!"? First they always have to say pirating music is stealing.

Whether or not theres an official definitive difference between these two things, doesnt mean there is no difference.

Disregaurding the ethics of each, you should admit that they are not the same. maybe according to websters dictionary they are, but the reality is they are not. Do you at least accept that?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230274 - 10/31/06 11:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Those commercials make a point of defining pirating as theft because many people, yourself included, DO NOT think that they are stealing when they obtain copyrighted material without permission or payment.

If many people thought that taking money out of their company's bank account was not stealing, the commercial would probably state "embezzlement is stealing."


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: Veritas]
    #6230279 - 10/31/06 11:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Good point, you are right.

This whole argument that pirating is stealing i guess is true, based on the fricken dictionary that is. It is a ploy to make the pirates feel bad.

SOOOOOOOOOO in conclusion, yes i think pirating music is unethical. But im not going to sit huddled in a corner and miss out on life because i want to be completely ethical.

we need to weigh the hurt against the benifits and make decisions in life. We cant always be ethical


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230285 - 10/31/06 11:45 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, it is possible to say "this is unethical, and yet I choose to participate in it for my own reasons."  When you measure the potential harm of your actions, decide that the benefits to you far outweigh the detriment to others, and deliberately engage in something you know is unethical, you are taking responsibility for your behavior.

:thumbup:


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Male

Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230296 - 10/31/06 11:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But wait maybe i spoke too fast. Everything you do has an affect on the whole. You are always going to be doing "good" for others and you are always going to be doing "bad."

So is the right thing to weigh the good against the bad, and which ever side weighs more is "Right"?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Ethics: Music Pirates = Spammers [Re: daytripper23]
    #6230324 - 10/31/06 12:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That would be an example of the ethical school of thought called "consequentialism."  Many people follow this school in considering the ethical nature of their actions.

Personally, I do not think that the potential consequences affect the ethicality of actions, but I do consider them when deciding whether to engage in what I consider to be an unethical act.

:shrug:

BTW, right and wrong are moral terms, stemming from religion.  Ethics does not address actions in terms of moral judgment.


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