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OfflineMAIA
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American army free to commit crimes of war.
    #863170 - 09/04/02 09:46 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

U.S. Presses Allies on War Crimes Court
by Peter Slevin

The International Criminal Court, established last month to bring war criminals to justice, has not yet gotten off the ground, but the Bush administration is already waging an extraordinary diplomatic campaign to persuade nearly 180 countries never to deliver an American to the court.

In capitals from Wellington, New Zealand, to Montevideo, Uruguay, U.S. diplomats have been insisting that the court cannot guarantee fairness to American soldiers and diplomats who could become targets of "politically motivated" prosecutions. In some countries, the administration is wielding a new law that permits cuts in military aid to governments that do not comply.

Only two nations -- Israel and Romania -- have signed pledges, but the full-court press is on, with Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice all raising the issue with their counterparts. President Bush has made comments sharply critical of the court, while a high-ranking State Department official said a government's decision could affect its candidacy for membership in NATO.

The campaign is setting the administration at odds with many of its closest allies, notably Europeans and Latin Americans who spent years designing a court to punish the world's worst offenders. A number of them are angry that the United States -- which withdrew from the court this year -- is expending so much diplomatic energy in pursuit of special treatment.

Among the 78 countries that have ratified the treaty creating the court, the dispute has added to international skepticism about the administration's commitment to cooperative solutions. These doubts are surfacing again at a time when the administration is seeking to overcome the allies' opposition to Bush's proposed overthrow of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

Court backers also contend that the administration is consciously undermining the credibility of the court, an allegation denied by U.S. officials, who said they have made no real or implied threats.

"The United States is exercising tremendous pressure. It does hurt the court day by day," one European diplomat said. "This is really a tiny, symbolic little court. It's more a symbol of hope in the fight against impunity than a genuine threat to the United States."

The administration threatened to shut down United Nations peacekeeping missions around the world unless the U.N. gave Americans immunity from ICC prosecution. When the European Commission instructed members and applicant countries this month not to reach separate deals with the United States, Powell wrote to European leaders, firmly advising them not to make it more difficult for the administration.

Powell wrote in mid-August that he could "not overstate" his concern and the president's: "The Administration, the American people and our Congress will not understand efforts to impede constructive, good-faith steps." He noted that some European governments had advised the Americans to seek such agreements.

The administration is focusing on the Europeans, believing that other countries may fall into line if pro-ICC governments sign the agreements. Another potential obstacle is a recent opinion by the European Commission's legal staff that the proposed U.S. agreements would be invalid under Article 98, the treaty clause cited by the Americans in seeking immunity deals, according to a source who has seen the confidential document.

A Washington-based foreign diplomat said many Europeans are mystified by the U.S. decision to push so hard. Persuaded that safeguards are ample and the odds of a politically motivated case against Americans are small, "most of the European countries feel there is not much to be concerned about here."

"I frankly do not know why the administration feels so strongly about it, whether it's ideologically driven or something they're genuinely worried about," said the diplomat, who has attended a State Department briefing session. He noted critics' arguments that "this is just another example of the United States choosing a somewhat, let's say, heavy tactic."

Close to home, the Canadian government has spoken out strongly against the U.S. campaign. "Democratic, law-abiding states have nothing to fear from the ICC, which has rigorous safeguards against frivolous investigations," Nancy Bergeron, a foreign ministry spokeswoman said.

The tempest concerns the world's first permanent war crimes tribunal, ratified by 78 countries and endorsed by 50 more. The court is empowered to investigate and prosecute individuals suspected of war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity, including widespread torture and rape. Decisions will be made by 18 appointed judges.

Supporters of the court, to be based in The Hague, say only part of its value lies in the ability to prosecute people who committed atrocities. Nearly as significant is the development of a set of international norms that can be applied universally. Until now, the U.N. has established tribunals and rules for specific cases, such as the existing tribunals for Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia.

The Clinton administration signed the treaty creating the ICC but did not submit it to the Senate for ratification. The Bush administration pulled back further and formally abandoned participation in May, arguing that the court would be an unchecked power.

"Our diplomats and our soldiers could be drug into this court, and that's very troubling to me," Bush warned last month. He told the Army's 10th Mountain Division, "Every person who serves under the American flag will answer to his or her own superiors and to military law, not to the rulings of an unaccountable international criminal court."

American diplomats presented the U.S. argument to foreign ministries a few weeks ago and sought short agreements pledging not to surrender Americans to the court. Since then, the State Department has held a series of briefings for Washington-based diplomats and has reached out to the foreign media. High-level officials have begun a series of follow-up trips around the globe.

"On any given day, there are people who would like to come after the United States and use any tool at their disposal," Pierre-Richard Prosper, the State Department war crimes envoy, told Danish reporters last week. "And we truly believe that this is a process that is exploitable and can be politicized."

Prosper said a collective refusal by the European Union to sign the agreements "would obviously pose a fundamental problem in aspects of our relationship, in as far as military engagement in Europe and elsewhere." There are currently about 9,000 U.S. peacekeepers stationed abroad, the majority of them in the Balkans.

U.S. officials say they have not threatened countries with a cut in military aid, as set forth in a new antiterrorism law signed by Bush. NATO allies and other significant partners are exempt from the measure, and the president also has the discretion to issue waivers. Yet a senior U.S. diplomat acknowledged that foreign governments are well aware of its penalties.

"I think the countries that might be affected negatively are aware of that fact, and I think that they're taking that into consideration along with everything else," the official said.

Marc Grossman, the State Department's undersecretary for political affairs, sought an agreement in Colombia, the third-largest recipient of U.S. military assistance. A senior Colombian diplomat said Friday that President Alvaro Uribe is "favorably inclined" to back the United States. He said the military aid threat was not discussed.

Prosper told the Danish reporters that a decision by NATO alliance candidates not to sign an agreement will be "an issue that we will have to discuss in the NATO context -- that's the reality. We can't avoid talking about this. It's something that's an issue of concern to the United States."

Richard Dicker of Human Rights Watch said, "For the United States to be pressuring Slovenia and Estonia to undercut a commitment to the rule of law is astounding." He also accused the administration of hypocrisy for pressuring Yugoslav, Croatian and Bosnian authorities to surrender suspects to The Hague tribunal while being unwilling to submit U.S. citizens to the ICC.

Another administration official said no threats regarding NATO admission have been made or implied. "Quite frankly," the official asserted, "I don't think it would be a deciding factor."

? 2002 The Washington Post Company






Now, two more countries are going to be on the US sise, east timor and malaysia (i think) besides Israel and Romania. From my point of view, the US is preparing for a ruthless war and wants to protect anybody involved on crimes of war by sending them to partner countries, i find it pretty disturbing because it feels like a green light to comit any needed atrocity and never being judged. Any comments ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (09/05/02 09:35 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: American army free to comit crimes of war. [Re: MAIA]
    #863224 - 09/04/02 10:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

In detail,

In reply to:

The administration threatened to shut down United Nations peacekeeping missions around the world unless the U.N. gave Americans immunity from ICC prosecution. When the European Commission instructed members and applicant countries this month not to reach separate deals with the United States, Powell wrote to European leaders, firmly advising them not to make it more difficult for the administration.




Fucking fascists, they have affraid of this :

In reply to:

war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity, including widespread torture and rape.




So ? Are they gonna do it ? If not, of what do they have affraid ? Of this ?

In reply to:

"Our diplomats and our soldiers could be drug into this court, and that's very troubling to me," Bush warned last month. He told the Army's 10th Mountain Division, "Every person who serves under the American flag will answer to his or her own superiors and to military law, not to the rulings of an unaccountable international criminal court."




Superiors respond to the president, i find it pretty convenient. It's like "keeping it with the family", does Bush think the ICC is not impartial ? He's fucking doubting a court created by half the world.

In reply to:

"And we truly believe that this is a process that is exploitable and can be politicized."




Wich isn't ? Are courts in the US really that perfect ?
The first political move is made by the US, wich is allready exploiting the ICC.

In reply to:

Richard Dicker of Human Rights Watch said, "For the United States to be pressuring Slovenia and Estonia to undercut a commitment to the rule of law is astounding." He also accused the administration of hypocrisy for pressuring Yugoslav, Croatian and Bosnian authorities to surrender suspects to The Hague tribunal while being unwilling to submit U.S. citizens to the ICC.




Democracy is now writen Hipocracy in the US.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (09/04/02 10:17 AM)


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: MAIA]
    #867175 - 09/06/02 12:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

We prosecute our own bad actors. Always have, always will. This includes executing our own, for serious infractions.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: wingnutx]
    #867271 - 09/06/02 01:37 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I got news for you, the justice system ain't working.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Xlea321]
    #868654 - 09/07/02 11:04 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, what would you suggest?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #868733 - 09/07/02 12:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It seems that every week the US does one more thing to distance themselves from the international community. One more thing to cause resentment (with reason) towards themselves.

I'd say the US is starting a downward spiral of it's own making, and it doesn't look like it wants to stop.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: wingnutx]
    #868987 - 09/07/02 03:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose you don't remember Lt. William Calley and My Lai? Look him up and what ended up happening with him. Then tell us that the US will actually punish our military people who commit war crimes.


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: trendal]
    #869409 - 09/07/02 04:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

****It seems that every week the US does one more thing to distance themselves from the international community****

If only dreams came true......


(i thought we were already too involved with the international community?....Hypocrisy perhaps?)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #869620 - 09/07/02 08:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

On the on hand, you have U.S. political and economic interference with other nations.

On the other you have U.S. participation in an international court.

They're different, so no, there's no hypocracy. Not there, anyway.

The United States will resist this type of organization for the same reasons that a corporation will resist the formation of labor unions. It only gives a voice to the little guy.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: hongomon]
    #869672 - 09/08/02 12:22 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)


Excellent point.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: hongomon]
    #869951 - 09/08/02 11:16 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

you're kidding me...Are you saying you only want the perks of US involvement?

is that your defense?...Hypocrisy to the extreme.

As for me i wish we would pull out of all other countries and let them defend themselves (maybe except for our REAL allies)

As far as labor unions go..they're an organization focused around the lowest common denominator,


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (09/08/02 11:19 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #869980 - 09/08/02 11:38 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

As far as labor unions go..they're an organization focused around the lowest common denominator,

Without which you would have been working up a chimney from the age of 7. The right to an education, decent living conditions, decent working conditions wasn't something the corporate owners decided to "give" you. It came because thousands of people took part in decades of bitter struggle in the face of tyranny and oppression you can only dream of. You should be on your knees thanking the labor unions with every breath you take.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Xlea321]
    #870329 - 09/08/02 08:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

****Without which you would have been working up a chimney from the age of 7****

The unions weren't the ones responsible for child labor acts..sorry. However with that said i don't work in a union so your assumptions are wrong once again.

****The right to an education, decent living conditions, decent working conditions wasn't something the corporate owners decided to "give" you****

The unions don't give you a right to an education or decent living conditions so i have no idea where you got that...it must be from them phantom stats you're always discussing...

As for working conditions when the unions first formed it was for the right reasons shitty pay, conditions and job insecurity, now it's for those that don't want to excell. While there are hard workers in a union (just like there are some in a socialist environment (not much difference)) they are of no extra value than those that are barely pulling their weight. Unions are only as good as their lowest person.

****It came because thousands of people took part in decades of bitter struggle in the face of tyranny and oppression you can only dream of****

I live in the Detroit area and know first hand of the struggles of the past (parents, grandparents..etc.) Flint Sitdown strike and the strikes of the big 3) however that was far in the past. Those unions today are full of inefficient workers who cannot compete with foriegn competitors. To deny that would be naive

***You should be on your knees thanking the labor unions with every breath you take***

I'll let you be the one on your knees. You have no idea what you're talking about and it sounds to me like your daddy and mommy are filling your head full of the same 'ol Union BS. I got to where i am with absolutly no union help..I'm Management. I am the only one responsible for where i am and the education that i recieved. Unions are a joke and are filled with under achievers..not all mind you but there are a huge percentage that is. If the Unions resorted to what their principle concerns were back in the days of the Flint sitdown strike then i would be at 100% support....to bad they suck and are useless today.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Xlea321]
    #870395 - 09/08/02 09:02 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Oh Alex.

This is an opinion, so no links or stats.

When I read your posts, I'm torn between hysterical laughter and uncontrolable tears.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #870448 - 09/08/02 09:42 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i lean towards pity myself...

just an angry little man being spoon fed opinions


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #870532 - 09/08/02 10:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Where did I say I wanted the perks? What perks are you even talking about? The millions of things we can't seem to stop buying? The packaged packages of stuff? The perk of prosperity? A turkey in every freezer, a car in every garage? The way things are run now, it's a false prosperity. It requires an entire planet to maintain it.

You say,
"As for me i wish we would pull out of all other countries and let them defend themselves...."

What, and lose control of that many of our markets? It'll never happen.

"(maybe except for our REAL allies) "

I'm not sure what you mean by "our REAL allies". I wonder if maybe you mean "those who agree with/support/comply with the U.S. federal government" but I hope you have a more reasonable definition.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Xlea321]
    #870550 - 09/08/02 10:27 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Alex123, I may be the only one here who decided after reading your post to actually look into the Bolivian water privitization issue, but that's better than no one, right?

Seems more popular here to yell, "no documentation!!" and stay in the nice soft shell.

peace, bro
hongomon


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OfflineJammer
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #870648 - 09/08/02 11:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

RE: (Unions) "I'm Management...."


Who would of thought? :smirk: 


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>>Jammer>>


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: Jammer]
    #870703 - 09/09/02 12:13 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Only those that are pro union would think that...

Unions Suck


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: American army free to commit crimes of war. [Re: hongomon]
    #870720 - 09/09/02 12:21 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

****Where did I say I wanted the perks? What perks are you even talking about?****

One word: Money

Without our funding there wouldn't be a UN or NATO....sounds fine to me.

****What, and lose control of that many of our markets? It'll never happen****

What does that have to do with access to markets? I'm not crazy enough to think that we don't need imports, however i wish we would let other countries defend them selves and whatever happens, well, happens.

****I'm not sure what you mean by "our REAL allies". ****

I'm not surprised. Well i would say that England, Canada, Mexico, Japan, Isreal, etc...

On the "Non Real Allies" i would place: Saudi Arabia, Egypt, France, Pakistan, Russia, And a pluthra of smaller Eastern block and Middle eastern coutries.

***I wonder if maybe you mean "those who agree with/support/comply with the U.S. federal government" ***

Not so much agree with us (but it makes me wonder why this bothers you so much) but rather those that are interested in an exchange of culture rather than an exchange in money which a large number of countries insist on.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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