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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788966 - 08/07/03 04:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

BS. 3 days is plenty of time to figure out that one of your cities just dissapeared and you don't want it to happen again. Maybe, they thought it was the only one we had or something. I don't know. Truman's racism? OK.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788976 - 08/07/03 04:52 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
He did wait a few days. You have got to be kidding when you say they did not know what the damage from the first bomb was like. They did have planes after all. I think that would have been plenty of time to fly a plane over the city, and report back to Tokyo. The point you are missing about the bombs not working is Truman could not afford to take that risk. These were the only two bombs available. Neither one were guaranteed to work. Wasting either one of them could have left them with nothing. Again hindsight is 20/20.




What you don't understand is that processing something like that is more than just a matter of taking pictures and flying them back to Tokyo. Understanding something like an A-bomb takes a complete paradigm shift in how one views the world. It takes time to take the pictures, time to take them back, time to examine them, time to convene meetings of all of the decision-making bodies involved (contrary to popular belief, the emperor just didn't issue orders that were immediately followed. He had to play politics as well). All of this takes time. There was also the fact that Japanese diplomats were desperately trying to contact their US counterparts during this period and being rebuffed. This whole thing is far, far more complicated than what your history teachers and mass media have taught you. Somehow, though, I know I shouldn't hold my breath until the day comes that you actually sit down and read balanced and well-documented study of the issue.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788990 - 08/07/03 04:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
BS. 3 days is plenty of time to figure out that one of your cities just dissapeared and you don't want it to happen again. Maybe, they thought it was the only one we had or something. I don't know. Truman's racism? OK.




The only thing that's BS here is your brainwashed belief that the United States can do no wrong.

Read some history, kid.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788999 - 08/07/03 04:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

As for taking pictures and sending them back, when someone tells you an intire city is gone that will make quite an ipact. And im sure the japs were trying to call the americans but they would just never pick up.

Truman: "Muahahahah i hate japanese first i destroy 1 city. MUAHAHAHAHAHA now i wont pick up the phone so i get to drop another. MUAHAHAHAH MUAHAHAHA MUAHAHAHAHA"

im sure thats what truman was thinking


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789014 - 08/07/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Kid? How old are you?

I never said the US could do no wrong. We have made plenty of mistakes over the years, I just don't think this is one of them.


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789029 - 08/07/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly. Think about how collectively shocked the US was after 9/11 and what it's done to the national psyche.

Now think about what it would be like to be the first people on earth to witness first hand the terrifying power of an atomic bomb. Think about seeing a city engulfed in the brightness of a thousand suns and then destroyed in seconds. Think about 140,000 people going about their lives and then being vaporised in an instant. It would be like the fucking apocalypse, piles of dust where people used to be, shadows scorched into walls. Black poison rain falling from the sky. Hundreds of thousand injured and dying, and three days is enough for them to wonder what the fuck just happened?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1789030 - 08/07/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Generals Eisenhower and MacArthur, as well as Admiral William Leahy, were AGAINST the bombings. So were the scientists who had worked on the project.

Why would Eisenhower and MacArthur of all people have been against it? Why? So they could see tens or hundreds of thousands of their own troops get killed? Obviously, they realized that other options were available. Those options included diplomacy, test demonstrations of the bomb on uninhabited territory or even on purely military targets, or, best of all, a combination of those two. The belief that the Japanese would have fought to the last man, woman, and child to protect the archipelago from invasion is nothing other than propaganda. When the US did finally occupy Japan the locals were completely compliant and cooperative, and its not because they were afraid the Americans were going to drop another A-Bomb on them. The reason is because the Emperor was allowed to live.

All the US had to do to stop the war was to offer peace terms that allowed the Emperor to stay alive. Under those terms the Japanese would have readily surrendered. And since THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED ANYWAY, what was the point of dropping the bomb? Even with the two bombs, the US occupation authorities realized that trying the Emperor for war crimes would have made their job in Japan infinitely more difficult. As long as they let him stay, everything was smooth as butter.

The US never offered peace on those terms before the bombs were dropped. In fact, the US never made ANY diplomatic peace overtures at all before the bombs were dropped. To say that the Japanese would have fought to the end is an easy lie to propagate because the Japanese were never even given a warning or a chance to surrender. The US just dropped one bomb on a city, killing 140,000, waited three days, and then dropped another one, killing 70,000.

In fact, Truman had standing orders to bomb TWO MORE cities in Japan as soon as the bombs became available. This is blatant disregard for human life.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1789032 - 08/07/03 05:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Kid? How old are you?

I never said the US could do no wrong. We have made plenty of mistakes over the years, I just don't think this is one of them.




Tell you what. When your posts start showing evidence of an education above the 8th grade level, I'll stop calling you kid. I know plenty of 80-year-old ignoramuses. Age is no substitute for education.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789037 - 08/07/03 05:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just thought I'd toss this in. The bodface is mine, not the author's.

from: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/nyt.kristof/index.html --

While American scholarship has undercut the U.S. moral position, Japanese historical research has bolstered it. The Japanese scholarship, by historians like Sadao Asada of Doshisha University in Kyoto, notes that Japanese wartime leaders who favored surrender saw their salvation in the atomic bombing. The Japanese military was steadfastly refusing to give up, so the peace faction seized upon the bombing as a new argument to force surrender.

"We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war," Koichi Kido, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest aides, said later.

Wartime records and memoirs show that the emperor and some of his aides wanted to end the war by summer 1945. But they were vacillating and couldn't prevail over a military that was determined to keep going even if that meant, as a navy official urged at one meeting, "sacrificing 20 million Japanese lives."

The atomic bombings broke this political stalemate and were thus described by Mitsumasa Yonai, the navy minister at the time, as a "gift from heaven."

Without the atomic bombings, Japan would have continued fighting by inertia. This would have meant more firebombing of Japanese cities and a ground invasion, planned for November 1945, of the main Japanese islands. The fighting over the small, sparsely populated islands of Okinawa had killed 14,000 Americans and 200,000 Japanese, and in the main islands the toll would have run into the millions.

"The atomic bomb was a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war," Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief cabinet secretary in 1945, said later.

Some argue that the U.S. could have demonstrated the bomb on an uninhabited island, or could have encouraged surrender by promising that Japan could keep its emperor. Yes, perhaps, and we should have tried. We could also have waited longer before dropping the second bomb, on Nagasaki.

But, sadly, the record suggests that restraint would not have worked. The Japanese military ferociously resisted surrender even after two atomic bombings on major cities, even after Soviet entry into the war, even when it expected another atomic bomb ? on Tokyo.

One of the great tales of World War II concerns an American fighter pilot named Marcus McDilda who was shot down on Aug. 8 and brutally interrogated about the atomic bombs. He knew nothing, but under torture he "confessed" that the U.S. had 100 more nuclear weapons and planned to destroy Tokyo "in the next few days." The war minister informed the cabinet of this grim news ? but still adamantly opposed surrender. In the aftermath of the atomic bombing, the emperor and peace faction finally insisted on surrender and were able to prevail.

It feels unseemly to defend the vaporizing of two cities, events that are regarded in some quarters as among the most monstrous acts of the 20th century. But we owe it to history to appreciate that the greatest tragedy of Hiroshima was not that so many people were incinerated in an instant, but that in a complex and brutal world, the alternatives were worse.




pinky


--------------------


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Phred]
    #1789068 - 08/07/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I generally appreciate Kristof's work, but this is pure speculation.

We will NEVER know what would have happened in the case of a test demonstration because that's not what happened. I am not arguing that the Japanese would certainly have surrendered in that case. I'm simply saying they should have been given the chance, that's all. If they had squandered that chance, I would have a clear conscience about the course of action the US finally took.

The question remains, which this article also fails to address: why weren't the Japanese given that chance? It wouldn't have cost thousands of American lives, as has been suggested. Eisenhower and MacArthur were AGAINST Truman's decision. Why were they, the two most respected military strategists in the United States at the time, not listened to?

Nice try, Pinky, but no dice. The original decision was a crime against humanity.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789121 - 08/07/03 05:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I generally appreciate Kristof's work, but this is pure speculation.




As is your whole argument. It's easy to play the woulda shoulda game. It was tragic and knowing what we know now things could of been different. To say that they had other choices is pure speculation.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1789199 - 08/07/03 06:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

there is only one way to properly view the dropping of any nuclear weapons.
ITS FUCKING WRONG
WAR IS WROONG
KILLING IS WRONG

how the fuck does the human race even expect to survive the next 10 years with these weapons hanging around?
i dont know about you guys but im gonna go build myself a falloout shelter up in northern canada.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1789256 - 08/07/03 06:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
All i can say is that the American people, myself included, would NEVER indorse ANY pre-emptive attack with nukes.




Your not serious are you?!......bush already said he'd lauch a pre-emptive nuclear strike if he felt it nescessary.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789275 - 08/07/03 06:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

EchoVortex said:
What you don't understand is that processing something like that is more than just a matter of taking pictures and flying them back to Tokyo. Understanding something like an A-bomb takes a complete paradigm shift in how one views the world...



Ridiculous! All one or a group has to do is realize that the other side has the means of instantly killing hundreds of thousands. It isn't brain surgery, it's basic survival - ANIMALS DO IT ALL THE TIME. No paradigm shift is required to save your ass, just avoidance of behaviour that will lead to your destruction.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleEdame
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Registered: 01/14/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789292 - 08/07/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Newsflash. Animals don't build cities, or create atomic weapons, or wage global wars which kill millions of their own species.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1789298 - 08/07/03 06:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Irrelevent. Go north to Alaska and watch the brown bears pulling salmon out of the water. Take an RPG and blow the fuck out of the biggest brown bear you see. Guess what will happen to the other brown bears...

It's basic survival.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789316 - 08/07/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Now take a gun and kill both of those bears and see if another one a few miles away understands.... :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Posts: 16,296
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1789320 - 08/07/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bush already said he'd lauch a pre-emptive nuclear strike if he felt it nescessary




and? As politicians do, they say many things and do another. Americans don't generally like nuclear war.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEdame
gone

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Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789329 - 08/07/03 06:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Watch a rabbit freeze as it sees the headlights of an approaching car, paralyzed by fear of something completely alien to it. This means nothing anyway because people are not rabbits or brown bears. Animals can't perform first aid or surgery on each other, you think everyone who survived Hiroshima just ran away blindly in fear?



--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1789335 - 08/07/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

It should be noted that because of the human capacity to reason, people should be able to more easily recognize danger from something like bombs than these hypothetical bears. Also, I AM NOT advocating the destruction of a single brown bear, nor the dropping of atomic bombs, I am merely pointing out that it doesn't require the occurrence of a paradigm shift to realize the danger in a situation.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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