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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded
    #1779125 - 08/04/03 08:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The unreported cost of war: at least 827 American wounded

Julian Borger, Washington
Monday August 4, 2003
The Guardian

US military casualties from the occupation of Iraq have been more than twice the number most Americans have been led to believe because of an extraordinarily high number of accidents, suicides and other non-combat deaths in the ranks that have gone largely unreported in the media.
Since May 1, when President George Bush declared the end of major combat operations, 52 American soldiers have been killed by hostile fire, according to Pentagon figures quoted in almost all the war coverage. But the total number of US deaths from all causes is much higher: 112.

The other unreported cost of the war for the US is the number of American wounded, 827 since Operation Iraqi Freedom began.

Unofficial figures are in the thousands. About half have been injured since the president's triumphant appearance on board the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln at the beginning of May. Many of the wounded have lost limbs.

The figures are politically sensitive. The number of American combat deaths since the start of the war is 166 - 19 more than the death toll in the first Gulf war.

The passing of that benchmark last month erased the perception, popular at the time Baghdad fell, that the US had scored an easy victory.

According to a Gallup poll, 63% of Americans still think Iraq was worth going to war over, but a quarter want the troops out now, and another third want a withdrawal if the casualty figures continue to mount.

In fact, the total death toll this time is 248 - including accidents and suicides - and as the number of non-combat deaths and serious injuries becomes more widely known, the erosion of public confidence is likely to continue, posing a threat to Mr Bush's prospects of re-election, which at the beginning of May had seemed a foregone conclusion.

Military observers say it is unusual, even in a "low-intensity" guerrilla war such as the situation seen in Iraq, for non-combat deaths to outnumber combat casualties.

The Pentagon does not tabulate the cause of those deaths, but according to an American website that has been tracking official reports, Iraq Coalition Casualty Count, 23 American soldiers have died in car or helicopter accidents since May 1, while 12 have been killed in accidents with weapons or explosives.

Three deaths have been categorised as "possible suicides", three have died from illness, and three from drowning. The rest are unexplained.

Wounded American soldiers continue to be flown back to the US at a relentless rate, in twice-weekly transport flights to Andrews air force base near Washington.

Hospital staff are working 70- or 80-hour weeks, and the Walter Reed army hospital in Washington is so full that it has taken over beds normally reserved for cancer patients to handle the influx, according to a report on CBS television.

Meanwhile, at the nearby national naval medical centre in Bethesda, new marine injuries are delivered almost daily by a medical plane known as the Nightingale.

The Pentagon figure for "wounded in action" in Iraq is 827, but here again the total number of injuries appears to be much higher.

The estimate given by central command in Qatar is 926, but according to Lieutenant-Colonel Allen DeLane, who is in charge of the airlift of the wounded into Andrews air base, that too is understated.

"Since the war has started, I can't give you an exact number because that's classified information, but I can say to you over 4,000 have stayed here at Andrews, and that number doubles when you count the people that come here to Andrews and then we send them to other places like Walter Reed and Bethesda, which are in this area also," Col DeLane told National Public Radio.

He said 90% of injuries were directly war-related.

Some of that number may involve double-counting - if a soldier stays at the Andrews clinic on the way to Washington and then again on the way back to the war or back home, for example. But the actual number of wounded still appears to be much higher than the official figures.

"When the facility where I'm at started absorbing the people coming back from theatre [in April], those numbers went up significantly - I'd say over 1,200," Col DeLane said.

"That number even went up higher in the month of May, to about 1,500, and continues to increase."




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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,282
Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1779132 - 08/04/03 08:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

NEWS FLASH: War is dangerous. People get hurt.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: wingnutx]
    #1779140 - 08/04/03 08:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's just common sense. The trick is to prevent it, is to avoid invading other nations unprovoked.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1779144 - 08/04/03 08:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nah, we soak up casualties regardless. African embassies, USS Cole, etc...

Might as well make them good for something.



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OfflineZahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: wingnutx]
    #1779152 - 08/04/03 08:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's completely different from conventional war. That is terrorism.

And in my humble opinion, the USS Cole was fair game.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1779160 - 08/04/03 08:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why was it fair game? Navy vessels from around the world buy fuel in each other's ports.

Nobody fucks with destroyers from Islamic countries when they dock in the US.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: wingnutx]
    #1779167 - 08/04/03 08:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You are not terribly aware of the situation at hand.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1779169 - 08/04/03 08:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Then educate me.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1780003 - 08/05/03 01:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So zahid if you come to my door for whatever reason if i blow out your intestines with a bit of explosive that was fair game. Please tell me it is so i can give you my adress right now.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1780923 - 08/05/03 10:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
So zahid if you come to my door for whatever reason if i blow out your intestines with a bit of explosive that was fair game. Please tell me it is so i can give you my adress right now.




You can put me on the list second. If you think it was fair game how about you play a little game of hide and go fuck yourself! Furthermore, why do you care how many casualties we have?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: shakta]
    #1781288 - 08/05/03 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Furthermore, why do you care how many casualties we have?

I think he cares a fuck of a lot more than Bush does.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1781411 - 08/05/03 01:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Furthermore, why do you care how many casualties we have?

I think he cares a fuck of a lot more than Bush does.




Dumb post of the day.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: shakta]
    #1781551 - 08/05/03 02:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Remember third grade?  :rolleyes:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1781799 - 08/05/03 03:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, I actually made it past 3rd grade. This guy just said the Cole was fair game, and you think he cares more about American soldiers than the President? That makes a whole lot of sense.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: shakta]
    #1782014 - 08/05/03 04:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
This guy just said the Cole was fair game, and you think he cares more about American soldiers than the President? That makes a whole lot of sense.


Saying the military is fair game is not at all the same as saying you don't care for them.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1782024 - 08/05/03 04:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree. The Cole was attacked by terrorists not by a foreign military they were at war with. Bush may have many flaws, but not caring about the soldiers is not one of them.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: shakta]
    #1782162 - 08/05/03 05:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I disagree. The Cole was attacked by terrorists not by a foreign military they were at war with. Bush may have many flaws, but not caring about the soldiers is not one of them.


Ok, I agree it's unfair to say he doesn't care about the troops. It's just that he cares more about control of oil, which is why he gets the bad rap.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1782184 - 08/05/03 05:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I tend to disagree about the oil thing to. The Iraqis are going to be profiting off of the oil not us. I am sure we will be buying a lot from them though. We will be using the proceeds from the oil to help pay for the rebuilding probably for a while. I don't really want to get started on this subject though, so nevermind. :smile:


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: shakta]
    #1782236 - 08/05/03 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
The Iraqis are going to be profiting off of the oil not us.  We will be using the proceeds from the oil to help pay for the rebuilding probably for a while.


Didn't you just contradict yourself?  :wink: 


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1782249 - 08/05/03 05:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No. Once the country is rebuilt they will be reaping the benefits of their oil as it should be. I would argue that rebuilding their country is profitable for them to. This is not limited to the damage we inflicted either. A lot of it will be repairing 30 years of neglect, and fixing what the Saddam loyalists have been destroying.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1782252 - 08/05/03 05:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No he didn't

Using proceeds to help with the rebuilding is not profiting.

Should we be stupid enough to actually just take their money, then it's both profiting and stealing.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1782389 - 08/05/03 05:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Using proceeds to help with the rebuilding is not profiting.

Should we be stupid enough to actually just take their money, then it's both profiting and stealing.


I guess in my mind, if he had said "the Iraqis" will be using the proceeds for rebuilding, rather than "we" will be using the proceeds for rebuilding, then I'd agree it is not stealing. But we know this isn't the case.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1782517 - 08/05/03 06:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Since we will be running the country for awhile, of course it will be we who spend the money.

If the day comes that we wander off with the money, you let me know.

Then we'll be stealing.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1782695 - 08/05/03 07:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

shakta: No. Once the country is rebuilt they will be reaping the benefits of their oil as it should be. I would argue that rebuilding their country is profitable for them to. This is not limited to the damage we inflicted either.

right, just like how the guatemalans are profiting off their bananas right? where do you come up with this shit??????


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1782776 - 08/05/03 08:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
So zahid if you come to my door for whatever reason if i blow out your intestines with a bit of explosive that was fair game. Please tell me it is so i can give you my adress right now.




I see Palestinians and Arabs alike who attack Israeli and American soldiers in the same light of French citizens who rose up against Nazi soldiers with force. Again, you have to do what you have to do. It's nothing personal towards the soldiers. I don't see what the problem is, frankly. Soldiers = fair game. I'm not a hard liner, I believe bombing civilians is sick and cold blooded murder. But armed forces, especially of an aggressive military, that is another story.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1782793 - 08/05/03 08:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well.. lemme see.

We are spending their money to rebuild their country, right?  Who is doing the rebuilding?

Halliburton - a company that until 2 years ago was partially owned by one Richard Cheney, who also sat on it's board of directors.  You know.. the vice president?  The guy who still gets $120k a year in 'consulting fees' from the company?

*crap* I've drawn a blank on the other company - out of SF...  owned by George Schultz... damn :frown:

Anyhoo... it doesn't really seem to me like they're getting too much of their money to rebuild.  Seems a bit like, yet again, the Old Boys Club of the Good Ol US of A is profiting.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1783140 - 08/05/03 10:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Bechtel.  :wink:

Very good point about whose really getting the money!  :eek: 


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Offlined33p
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1783355 - 08/06/03 12:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
I see Palestinians and Arabs alike who attack Israeli and American soldiers in the same light of French citizens who rose up against Nazi soldiers with force. Again, you have to do what you have to do.




so you are comparing american soldiers to nazis. Wow i have no clue where your warped perception of the world comes from but i hope you are only one of few. Now i can understand when an american soldier gets kill in war. It is simply a fatality of war. People get killed in war and thats a given. Now when a ship docked into a friendly nations port for only friendly reasons it is not war. What happned was cold blooded murder.

I pose this question to you. It is probably a given that at least some one person who died in twin towers was part of the miltery (reserves, marines, army, navy, whatever). Were their deaths also "fair game"?

Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?

In your view are the men who carried out the attacks on the cole heros?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1783482 - 08/06/03 12:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
so you are comparing american soldiers to nazis. Wow i have no clue where your warped perception of the world comes from but i hope you are only one of few.


I think he's comparing someone defending his homeland from invaders to someone defending his homeland from invaders.
Quote:

Now i can understand when an american soldier gets kill in war. It is simply a fatality of war. People get killed in war and thats a given. Now when a ship docked into a friendly nations port for only friendly reasons it is not war. What happned was cold blooded murder.


"For only friendly reasons"???    :wink:  Under our rules, you are correct.  Now, put yourself in their shoes for a moment.  If you want to resist a military that's 50 times stronger than your own, and playing by their rules has a 0% chance of working, wouldn't you make a few of your own rules?  (just playing devil's advocate, not agreeing what they did was right).
Quote:

I pose this question to you. It is probably a given that at least some one person who died in twin towers was part of the miltery (reserves, marines, army, navy, whatever). Were their deaths also "fair game"?


No more so than the civilians.  But since Bin Laden had NO chance of taking on our military, he thought he'd try something different that might accomplish his objectives.  I think what he did was 100% wrong, but I can see why he chose that course of action over taking on our military directly.
Quote:

Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?


That's a very good question.  We targeted Iraq's military headquarters, so it would seem hypocritical for us to say they can't target ours.  Obviously, using a civilian airliner to accomplish this was horrible, but I guess they didn't have any "real" weapons to use.         


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Offlined33p
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1783561 - 08/06/03 01:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well i didt pose any of that to you corn but i accept the response.

So the us was invading yemen and its people were defending itself from the uss cole? wtf

quote"Under our rules, you are correct. Now, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. If you want to resist a military that's 50 times stronger than your own, and playing by their rules has a 0% chance of working, wouldn't you make a few of your own rules?"

i dont really see your point. Ok so they made some new rules. Those rules happened to be cold blooded murder. I know why they did it, beacuse it effective. If america went to war with canada dropping a nuke on toronto would be "effective".

You also talk of what happened as if we were at war with a country with bin laden as its leader. They struck america beacuse america left afganiss "hangin" 10 yrs prior. Why binladen thought killing innocent people in america would somehow make up for what happened to afganistan is not understood by me.

quote "That's a very good question. We targeted Iraq's military headquarters, so it would seem hypocritical for us to say they can't target ours. Obviously, using a civilian airliner to accomplish this was horrible, but I guess they didn't have any "real" weapons to use."

again when were we at war with a country that bin laden headed? It obvious why we struck iraqi headquaters to take out command and control to beat their army. i dont think bin laden was expecting to accomplish this.

Corn i ask you this: You talk of bin laden's objectives. Do you think his objectives were to crumble the gov't of america or to just kill innocent americans hence pissing off more americans. Even he knew there was no way he could accomplish the first so i assume it was for the second objective.





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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1783649 - 08/06/03 01:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

so you are comparing american soldiers to nazis. Wow i have no clue where your warped perception of the world comes from but i hope you are only one of few.

I didn't say that. I am comparing French resistance fighters to Palestinian/Arab resistance fighters. Surely, the Nazis are the most guilty military in history.

Now i can understand when an american soldier gets kill in war. It is simply a fatality of war. People get killed in war and thats a given. Now when a ship docked into a friendly nations port for only friendly reasons it is not war. What happned was cold blooded murder.

How exactly does one "resist" the United States?

Remember, soldiers carry guns.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1783676 - 08/06/03 01:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i carry i gun to. I hope that doesnt allow any random person to kill me.

And just beacuse a contry cant beat another country's military it doesnt make it right to attack innocent people from that country.

When america was at war with iraq i certainly couldnt beat the iraq millitary by myself. Did that allow to kill any iraq i choose.

and plz answer my other questions


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1783686 - 08/06/03 01:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?

Were the 750,000 plus children under five who died in Iraq thanks to sanctions "fair game"?



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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1783817 - 08/06/03 02:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
So the us was invading yemen and its people were defending itself from the uss cole? wtf


Since the US frequently bombs military targets to achieve its objectives without being attacked first, the attackers of the USS Cole may have felt they had a right to do the same thing.
Quote:

i dont really see your point. Ok so they made some new rules. Those rules happened to be cold blooded murder.


I completely agree. But unfortunately, there are countless cases of America committing cold-blooded murder.
Quote:

You also talk of what happened as if we were at war with a country with bin laden as its leader. They struck america beacuse america left afganiss "hangin" 10 yrs prior. Why binladen thought killing innocent people in america would somehow make up for what happened to afganistan is not understood by me.


I think you misunderstand why Osama attacked America. Perhaps you should read his letter to America.
Quote:

Corn i ask you this: You talk of bin laden's objectives. Do you think his objectives were to crumble the gov't of america or to just kill innocent americans hence pissing off more americans. Even he knew there was no way he could accomplish the first so i assume it was for the second objective.


See his letter.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1783855 - 08/06/03 02:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As with any extremist anything they say either their reasons or whatever i take with a grain of sand. It could could be bs as such is the "jihad" crap. I really dont care. I was just generalizing about one thing he did it for, basicaly the only somewhat justifiable reason in my mind. And you cant really compare any american millitary operation to a suprise suicide attack on innocent people. Untill america intentionally bombs a school just to kill little foriegn kids ill think that way.

And alex stop making such preposterous agruements. The UN backed up every one of those sanctions against iraq so dont put blame on america. And maybe if saddam didnt spend thousands on a single gold toilet then maybe those kids would have lived. Saddam had a fucking billion dollers in a single bank, money which could have saved many of those lives. So dont blame a single fucking one of those kids deaths on america.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1783890 - 08/06/03 02:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Bechtel.  :wink:
Very good point about whose really getting the money!  :eek: 




Yah - Bechtel.
Thank you, and thank you :smile: 


--------------------
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1783912 - 08/06/03 03:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i carry i gun to. I hope that doesnt allow any random person to kill me.

Don't be silly. Are you part of an otherwise evil military power?

And just beacuse a contry cant beat another country's military it doesnt make it right to attack innocent people from that country.

Why do you keep saying 'innocent'? Are the Americans killed in the Iraqi and Afghan wars innocent? Innocent people are non-combatants.

When america was at war with iraq i certainly couldnt beat the iraq millitary by myself. Did that allow to kill any iraq i choose.

You're twisting my words. I am talking about soldiers, not civilians.

I pose this question to you. It is probably a given that at least some one person who died in twin towers was part of the miltery (reserves, marines, army, navy, whatever). Were their deaths also "fair game"?

Absolutely not. In fact it is this logic that terrorists use.

Was everyone who died in the pentagon "fair game" beacuse they were associated with the military?

I don't think so, as most of the people employed at the Pentagon are civilian government workers.

As for the whole array of different 'military types' you're always mentioning, if they're deployed in the region, I'd say they're fair game.

In your view are the men who carried out the attacks on the cole heros?

No, as the men who carried out the attack were likely indiscriminate - they would have killed innocent civilians if given the order to. They just happened to be part of an operation that attacked, in my view, a legitimate target.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1783933 - 08/06/03 03:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

While I don't agree at all with the hijacking of civilian airliners, or the bombing of the world trade center, Bin Laden did give his justification in his letter.

I'll cut and paste the more interesting parts of his letter here:


(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
(Q2) What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?


As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(he gives a lengthy, but very intersting explanation backing this up)

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(again, he goes on to give a lengthy, but very intersting explanation backing this up).

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of your international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(he goes on to give a lengthy explanation of why he believes Islam is a good religion)

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(he goes on to give a lengthy, explanation of why he believes this, such as):

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them?


--------------------


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1784122 - 08/06/03 05:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If the money actually goes to the rebuilding of the country, what difference does it make who does the work?

I'll repeat, should the US just start carting money away, let me know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1784125 - 08/06/03 05:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Were the 750,000 plus children under five who died in Iraq thanks to sanctions "fair game"?



That numbers been debunked enough times to make it rather silly of you to keep bringing it up.

Plus, there would have been no sanctions had Saddam complied with the surrender agreement.

Plus, how many would have died anyway? From non-sanction related causes?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1784145 - 08/06/03 05:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

People are still moaning about the war... Jesus...


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1784174 - 08/06/03 06:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
If the money actually goes to the rebuilding of the country, what difference does it make who does the work?

I'll repeat, should the US just start carting money away, let me know. 


Wow, if we put Iraqi money into American pockets, it's all good, but when we put American money into American pockets (through social programs), it's STEALING!  :wink:   


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1784244 - 08/06/03 07:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
If the money actually goes to the rebuilding of the country, what difference does it make who does the work?

I'll repeat, should the US just start carting money away, let me know. 


Wow, if we put Iraqi money into American pockets, it's all good, but when we put American money into American pockets (through social programs), it's STEALING!  :wink:   


Did you start drinking early today?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1784336 - 08/06/03 09:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GernBlanston said:
Well.. lemme see.

We are spending their money to rebuild their country, right?  Who is doing the rebuilding?

Halliburton - a company that until 2 years ago was partially owned by one Richard Cheney, who also sat on it's board of directors.  You know.. the vice president?  The guy who still gets $120k a year in 'consulting fees' from the company?

*crap* I've drawn a blank on the other company - out of SF...  owned by George Schultz... damn :frown:

Anyhoo... it doesn't really seem to me like they're getting too much of their money to rebuild.  Seems a bit like, yet again, the Old Boys Club of the Good Ol US of A is profiting. 




This drives me insane. You act like Haliburton is responsible for rebuilding the entire country. All they are doing is working on the oil infrastructure. The reason they got the contract is the same reason the did in the last war. They are the most qualified to do the work.

We have spent billions of dollars on this war. Why do you think it is so wrong for American companies to make some money rebuilding? Should we just give all of the contracts to the French maybe? No one is going to do the work for free.

We, along with the other countries that helped, fought this war. American tax dollars paid for it. Why shouldn't American workers reap the benefits of the rebuilding contracts? I would much rather have any money that is paid by our taxpayers, be paid to companies that employ the same taxpayers.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: shakta]
    #1784551 - 08/06/03 11:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We have spent billions of dollars on this war. Why do you think it is so wrong for American companies to make some money rebuilding?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The same people responsible for slaughtering thousands of innocents then get to make enormous profits out of it too? Do you think the Nazi's deserved all the jews money because they'd spent so much on sending them to Auschwitz?

Where did you learn your morals?


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1784743 - 08/06/03 01:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The reason they got the contract is the same reason the did in the last war. They are the most qualified to do the work.

Jesus, man. If you actually believe this, then there is something very wrong here. The reason they got the contract is that the company was partially owned by Dick Cheney - Bush Sr.'s Sec. Def. Halliburton was, at that time, a company in Texas who had NEVER been awarded a single international contract. Not one. They had NO experience in rebuilding the infrastructure of an entire country. Hell, some people argued that they weren't even very good at doing it in Texas!

We have spent billions of dollars on this war. Why do you think it is so wrong for American companies to make some money rebuilding?

But when the motivation for the fucking war in the first place was so that American companies could have an obstacle free avenue for making giant shitloads of money - with no federal regulatory roadblocks (which, themselves, are becoming corrupted to the will of big business as we speak) in the way.. well, THAT's a problem.

Some of you people see what you want to see and nothing else. Goddamn it, I hope the sky is at least a pretty color in your tiny little world.


--------------------
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1784746 - 08/06/03 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Considering you have no evidence to base your claim on, I'd say that the sky in your world is the one we should be looking at.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1784872 - 08/06/03 02:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's certainly far more valid a claim than the whole weapons of mass deception nonsense ever was.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1784893 - 08/06/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

..even i can agree with that!


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1784928 - 08/06/03 02:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
We have spent billions of dollars on this war. Why do you think it is so wrong for American companies to make some money rebuilding?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The same people responsible for slaughtering thousands of innocents then get to make enormous profits out of it too? Do you think the Nazi's deserved all the jews money because they'd spent so much on sending them to Auschwitz?

Where did you learn your morals?




Give me a damn break. You comparing this to the Nazis is now the height of your mental retardation that we all have become all to familiar with. Saddam was the Nazi in this case. We are playing the same role we did in that war. We are rebuilding the nation that was ruled by the Nazi, just like we did with Germany after WW2. Everyone thinks that Saddam being gone is a good thing. We all know that the country has to be rebuilt after 30 years of neglect by Saddam's regime and the war. We (American taxpayers) are going to foot most of the bill. We deserve to pay our own companies to do the rebuilding. Who else should get the contracts? Canada? France? If they are not willing to help the people of Iraq rebuild their country why should they benefit from it?


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1784959 - 08/06/03 02:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Plus, there would have been no sanctions had Saddam complied with the surrender agreement.





Here is a brief timeline with some quotes:

April 3, 1991: U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 687. It includes
many demands but states that once Iraq complies with the weapons
inspection regime, the sanctions "shall have no further force or effect."

May 20, 1991: President George Bush: "At this juncture, my view is we don't want to lift these sanctions as long as Saddam Hussein is in power." James Baker, Secretary of State: "We are not interested in seeing a relaxation of sanctions as long as Saddam Hussein is in power."

January 12, 1995: While inspections were taking place, Ambassador
Madeleine Albright said the U.S. was "determined to oppose any
modification of the sanctions regime until Iraq has moved to comply with
all its outstanding obligations." She specifically cited the return of
Kuwaiti weaponry and non-military equipment.

May 12, 1996: On "60 Minutes," Lesley Stahl asks Albright: "We have heard that a half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?" Albright responds: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

March 26, 1997: Albright, in her first major foreign policy address as
Secretary of State: "We do not agree with the nations who argue that if
Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction,
sanctions should be lifted. Our view, which is unshakable, is that Iraq
must prove its peaceful intentions.... And the evidence is overwhelming
that Saddam Hussein's intentions will never be peaceful."

November 14, 1997: President Clinton. [During a standoff on weapons inspectors] "What he [Hussein] says his objective is, is to relieve the people of Iraq, and presumably the government, of the burden of the sanctions. What he has just done is to ensure that the sanctions will be there until the end of time or as long as he lasts.

August 20, 1997: Ambassador Bill Richardson: "Sanctions may stay on in
perpetuity."






--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Edame]
    #1785012 - 08/06/03 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

While your timeline is nicely done, it doesn't change the fact that had he complied, things would have been very different.

For that matter, had he not invaded Kuwait, there would have been no sanctions.

Anyone with no ax to grind realizes he, and he alone, was responsible.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1785088 - 08/06/03 03:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I was just pointing out that I felt that your statement was inaccurate. What motivation was there for Saddam to disarm when the US states publicly that sanctions would never end as long as he was in power? As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. I think most people here would agree that Saddam really didn't give a shit what happened to his people, so why continue to impose sanctions that contribute to their starvation and suffering?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Edame]
    #1785132 - 08/06/03 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Just think of all the trouble we could have avoided had Bush The Elder just let our guys finish the job the first time.

And as for the publicly stated desire for the sanctions to remain in effect, we'll never know if they would have or not since he didn't comply. The onus was upon him. He thought he could bluff his way past them. He was wrong.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlined33p
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Zahid]
    #1785246 - 08/06/03 04:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
i carry i gun to. I hope that doesnt allow any random person to kill me.

Don't be silly. Are you part of an otherwise evil military power?





Well you seem to think the whole of the american millitary is evil some i dont think the same about. Most of what you think is good i think is bad and vice versa but that the opinion you choose to have. And who is to say im not apart of the american millitary?

Quote:

Zahid said:
And just beacuse a contry cant beat another country's military it doesnt make it right to attack innocent people from that country.

Why do you keep saying 'innocent'? Are the Americans killed in the Iraqi and Afghan wars innocent? Innocent people are non-combatants.





i dont think you realize that the uss cole was not taking over yemen. It was docked their for peaceful reason which makes the ship non-combative. I dont see why you cant understand this.

Quote:

Zahid said:
When america was at war with iraq i certainly couldnt beat the iraq millitary by myself. Did that allow to kill any iraq i choose.

You're twisting my words. I am talking about soldiers, not civilians.





Well the reality is most deaths of us soldiers arnt from uniformed iraqi troops. Most are "civilians". If i were serving in iraqi curently i would treat everyone i see as threat however they may apear. That is the reality of fighting there. Therfore by your standards i could kill and iraqi.

Quote:

Zahid said:
As for the whole array of different 'military types' you're always mentioning, if they're deployed in the region, I'd say they're fair game.





Again the uss cole were not deployed in active combot and were non-combative at that point. But beacuse you feel the uss cole is somehow fair game i bealive that by your logic any iraqi is america is "deployed" and therefore fair game.



--------------------
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1785286 - 08/06/03 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone with no ax to grind realizes he, and he alone, was responsible.

Don't be silly. Israel has broken scores of UN resolutions. No sanctions have yet been enforced. You talk as tho imposing sanctions is normal procedure.


--------------------
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1785296 - 08/06/03 04:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But alex at least isreal didnt invade another country like saddam. O no wait they did.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1785300 - 08/06/03 04:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

we'll never know if they would have or not since he didn't comply

No, he clearly complied. Otherwise we would have found WMD. The only thing he is guilty of is not being particularly helpful to a bunch of foreigners wanting to inspect every top secret location in his country. Do you think George Bush would happily co-operate in showing foreigners round around every top secret location in the US if he was asked to by the UN? I have my doubts.

He thought he could bluff his way past them

He didn't "bluff" anyone. There are no WMD there.

He was wrong.

Doesn't really matter does it. Thousands of innocents were slaughtered for the sake of giving the UN inspectors a few more months to establish the truth that there were no WMD in the country. A price worth paying?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1785316 - 08/06/03 04:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I wish you would stop saying there is absolutely no wmd in iraq you have no clue. Unless i see that video of you and saddam together in bed ive heard so very much about. And since he didnt document the destruction of his wmd he obvously didnt comply. Him not documenting the destruction breaks the cease-fire. Do you know what cease-fire means and what it means to break it. It means you can fire now. Something that occurs in war.


--------------------
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1785367 - 08/06/03 04:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I wish you would stop saying there is absolutely no wmd in iraq you have no clue.

Ok, we can't find any and it's widely accepted by everyone from government ministers to intelligence experts that they don't exist. If you want to believe they are there you go ahead.

Do you know what cease-fire means and what it means to break it.

Yes I do. Do you even know what the "ceasefire" at the end of the first gulf war consisted of?

It means you can fire now

Don't talk out of your ass. It means no such thing. Armed force is permitted only in self-defense to an armed attack (UN Charter, art. 51) or with Security Council authorization (UN Charter, art. 42).


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1785482 - 08/06/03 05:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
But alex at least isreal didnt invade another country like saddam. O no wait they did. 


Ha ha, good one!  :grin: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1786317 - 08/06/03 09:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Otherwise we would have found WMD.



Pay attention now, the inability to find something is not proof it doesn't exist.


Quote:

He didn't "bluff" anyone. There are no WMD there.



Say it with me this time.... the inability to find something is not proof it doesn't exist.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1786325 - 08/06/03 09:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Anyone with no ax to grind realizes he, and he alone, was responsible.

Don't be silly. Israel has broken scores of UN resolutions. No sanctions have yet been enforced. You talk as tho imposing sanctions is normal procedure.



Israel is not the subject here.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1786330 - 08/06/03 09:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alex you always seem to try to use simple logic in your defense so i gave you some. When a ceasefire is broken it means no more ceasefire ie firing. And since america didnt attack iraq with 100% un backing i dont know why you brought of un charters. And if i had my way saddam would have been taken out in 91 and we wouldnt even be argueing about this now.


--------------------
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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1786764 - 08/07/03 12:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
had he not invaded Kuwait, there would have been no sanctions.
Anyone with no ax to grind realizes he, and he alone, was responsible.



Quote:

Alex123 said:
Don't be silly. Israel has broken scores of UN resolutions. No sanctions have yet been enforced. You talk as tho imposing sanctions is normal procedure.



Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Israel is not the subject here.



I think Alex made a great point here. Why is it ok to impose sanctions that kill hundreds of thousands on Iraq for UN resolution violations, while Israel gets special US protection for doing the same thing? That's extremely wrong in my opinion.


--------------------


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1786776 - 08/07/03 12:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

By the way, no one's commented on Osama's letter to the US above. It seems surprisingly logical and well written to me. Although I think terrorism is almost always wrong, does anyone disagree with his reasoning?


--------------------


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1786994 - 08/07/03 01:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Frankly, I've been afraid to do so. But I read the whole thing, and saved it for future reference.

Honestly, I think if you removed his name from it and posted it as "A Letter From the Arab World to the United States", then people would likely concede that he has a few excellent points. It was concise, extremely well written and rationalized. While I obviously don't agree with his methods, there is something to be said for his arguments, to be certain.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1787049 - 08/07/03 01:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Pay attention now, the inability to find something is not proof it doesn't exist.

So you simply believe anything anyone says with absolutely no supporting evidence? If someone says "I believe there's an invisible little green man from mars behind you", do you believe them because you can't prove he doesn't exist?


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1787054 - 08/07/03 01:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GernBlanston said:
he has a few excellent points. It was concise, extremely well written and rationalized. While I obviously don't agree with his methods, there is something to be said for his arguments, to be certain.


I completely agree.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: d33p]
    #1787056 - 08/07/03 01:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

When a ceasefire is broken it means no more ceasefire ie firing. And since america didnt attack iraq with 100% un backing i dont know why you brought of un charters

Are you just making this up as you go along? Read up on how the Gulf war was ended. Pay particular attention to something called UN resolution 687.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1787387 - 08/07/03 05:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Pay attention now, the inability to find something is not proof it doesn't exist.

So you simply believe anything anyone says with absolutely no supporting evidence? If someone says "I believe there's an invisible little green man from mars behind you", do you believe them because you can't prove he doesn't exist?




Obviously the answer is no, which is why I say I don't know if the weapons are there or not. Until one is found, I don't automatically believe there is one. However, how can the possibility be dismissed? I can doubt they'll find one, just as you can doubt they'll find WMD's, however it would be a fool who decides that something doesn't exist merely because it's not seen, or found.

Especially in the case of WMD's because they are known to have existed at one point.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Cornholio]
    #1787451 - 08/07/03 06:14 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

By the way, no one's commented on Osama's letter to the US above. It seems surprisingly logical and well written to me. Although I think terrorism is almost always wrong, does anyone disagree with his reasoning?



His reasoning seems to rely very heavily on reducing people to members of the groups he implicitly defines: Us and Them. Muslims and Everyone Else. And whenever something bad happens to Muslims, the blame is placed on Everyone Else, who are of course responsible as a collective.

Apart from that, his reasoning is very straightforward and even simplistic, like in all good propaganda.


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1788317 - 08/07/03 02:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
His reasoning seems to rely very heavily on reducing people to members of the groups he implicitly defines: Us and Them. Muslims and Everyone Else. And whenever something bad happens to Muslims, the blame is placed on Everyone Else, who are of course responsible as a collective.

Apart from that, his reasoning is very straightforward and even simplistic, like in all good propaganda.


The "us" is indeed all Muslims; but it seems that Muslims from one country are a lot more united with Muslims from another country, than say Christians from one country are united with Christians from another country, so this is understandable.  The "them" is NOT everyone else, but rather just the United States and Israel.  And he goes through great pains to explain why he lumps US civilians in the same category as the US Government (basically because "the people" have the power to choose their Government).  In doing so, he demonstrates that he knows a lot more about our own Government than our average citizen.

Again, as has been already stated, I'm NOT suggesting that what Bin Laden did was right.  What I'm saying is that he had some very well thought out, rationalized reasons.  As a matter of fact, you accused his letter of being "straightforward and even simplistic like all good propoganda".  Now compare his letter to the reasons Bush gave for the attacks:  "because we stand for freedom and democracy".  Who's the one spouting simplistic propoganda???  :tongue: 


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (08/07/03 04:41 PM)


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Re: Unreported cost of war: 827 Americans wounded [Re: Xlea321]
    #1788799 - 08/07/03 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Actually i am making this up as i go along just to piss you off :smile:


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