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InvisibleEdame
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Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war...
    #1788530 - 08/07/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

All I can really say is that I hope I never live to see another nuclear weapon scar this planet and it's peoples.

From Mainichi Interactive:

Quote:

Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war on A-bomb anniversary


HIROSHIMA -- Hiroshima Mayor Tadatoshi Akiba warned that the world is moving toward war and accused Washington of "worshipping" nuclear weapons during Wednesday's ceremony marking the 58th anniversary of the atomic bombing of the city.

Some 40,000 people, including Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Ito and British Labour MP George Galloway, attended the ceremony at Hiroshima's Peace Memorial Park and observed a minute of silence from 8:15 a.m., the time a U.S. atomic bomb devastated the city on Aug. 6, 1945.

In his peace declaration, the Hiroshima mayor blamed the United States for making the world a more uncertain place through its policy of undermining the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

"A world without nuclear weapons and war that the victims of the atomic bomb have long sought for is slipping into the shadows of glowing black clouds that could turn into mushroom clouds at any moment," Akiba said. "The chief cause of this is the United States' nuclear policy which, by openly declaring the possibility of a pre-emptive nuclear strike and by starting research into small 'useable' nuclear weapons, appears to worship nuclear weapons as God."

He also criticized the growing sentiment in Japan and elsewhere that war is acceptable.

"Nuclear weapons are not the only problem. Some people are acting as if the United Nations Charter and the (pacifist) Constitution don't even exist and they are gaining support for this stance. The world has suddenly veered sharply away from post-war thinking toward a pre-war mentality," Akiba warned.

The peace declaration also attacked the recent Iraq war, saying that the U.S.-led war ignored people's wishes demanding a peaceful solution and "slaughtered" innocent women, children, and the elderly while spreading radioactive contamination through the use of depleted uranium ammunition.

Emphasizing the Hiroshima a-bomb victims' belief that peace can only be achieved through reconciliation and not retaliation, Akiba invited the leaders of the nuclear powers, including U.S. President George W. Bush and Kim Jong Il of North Korea, to visit the city and to "confront the reality" of nuclear war.

Akiba was also critical of the Japanese government, which has refused to provide support for the majority of non-Japanese A-bomb victims.

"The Japanese government must fulfill its responsibilities. It must adopt three new non-nuclear principles -- allow no production, allow no possession, and allow no use of nuclear weapons anywhere in the world -- and work hard to make Asia a nuclear-free zone. It must also provide full support to all A-bomb victims everywhere, including those exposed in areas where 'black (radiated) rain' fell and those who now live overseas."

Prime Minister Koizumi spoke after Akiba and his reaction to the mayor's challenge was to reiterate the government's position that it will lead international efforts to eliminate nuclear weapons.

"As the only nation in human history to experience the horrible effects of an atomic bomb, we have adhered to the pacifist Constitution and have observed three non-nuclear principles (of not producing, not possessing and not allowing other countries to bring nuclear weapons to Japan)," Koizumi said. "The government is aware that A-bomb victims are growing older and is determined to introduce policies to support them."

After the ceremony, for the second year running Koizumi left Hiroshima without attending a meeting of atomic bomb victims or without visiting facilities treating elderly A-bomb victims. He is the only post-war prime minister who has refused to do so.

During the ceremony, the names of 5,050 people who died in the past 12 months were added to the list of atomic bomb victims. The number of people killed directly by the Hiroshima atomic bomb and those who died after exposure to radiation has now reached 231,920.




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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1788554 - 08/07/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

All i can say is that the American people, myself included, would NEVER indorse ANY pre-emptive attack with nukes.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788558 - 08/07/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Nope. I completely agree. I think the bombings in Japan were warranted though. I think it saved lives overall.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788577 - 08/07/03 03:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I see them as war crimes myself. I don't understand how anyone could endorse the utter annihilation of 70,000 human lives (civilians at that) in an instant (not to mention the hundreds of thousands who died since).


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788594 - 08/07/03 03:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Nope. I completely agree. I think the bombings in Japan were warranted though. I think it saved lives overall.




That is absurd...How is bombing of thousands of Peasants and Fisherman and non-military targets warranted? By that line of thinking, the attacks on the twin towers could also be considered as justified.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/07/03 03:21 PM)


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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788615 - 08/07/03 03:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Quote:

shakta said:
Nope. I completely agree. I think the bombings in Japan were warranted though. I think it saved lives overall.




That is absurd...How is bombing of thousands of Peasants and Fisherman and non-military targets warranted? By that line of thinking, the attacks on the twin towers could also be considered as justified.




Yea, but after the WTC was bombed America attacked terrorist camps and what not. People didnt know as much about the atomic bomb back then and the natural reaction was to retaliate, like after 9.11...It's easy to look back and realize how fucked up it was, the government even admits it.


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1788621 - 08/07/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I figured you would say that. So, do you think it would have been better to invade Japan, and take a few years to conguer it? I think it is safe to say that many more would have died on both sides had that happened. It was undoubtedly a hard decision for Truman to make. I believe he made the correct one. He did not have the luxury of hindsight to guide him. He also did not know whether the Japanese could have been beaten otherwise. Those two blasts ended the bloodiest war in history without further bloodshed. As far as war crimes go, both cities were military targets. They both were manufacturing hubs for the empire. This type of thing is unecessary today with the advent of precision weapons. Back then carpet bombings was pretty much the only way to ensure destruction of a target. One last point. No one really knew the long lasting effects of radiation back then. They did not know that it was as harmful as it was. Even after the war after tests the scientists and military personel would just walk around the blast site with no protective equipment.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788635 - 08/07/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Rono, see my reply to Edame. Your comparison is ridiculous. The bombings in Japan were between two countries at war, and the cities war military targets.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788663 - 08/07/03 03:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Ah...I see...Fisherman and farmers are military targets...gotcha.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788712 - 08/07/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think the bombings in Japan were warranted though. I think it saved lives overall




true dat.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788716 - 08/07/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I figured you would ignore the rest of the post. The army headquarters were in Hiroshima. I am not saying it was a full military target with no civilians be any means. Look, the Japanese were trying to take over the entire world, and Truman had to do something to stop them. I don't understand why no one ever remembers that. It is always the US's fault.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788718 - 08/07/03 03:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I've posted this before, and I'll post it now. You don't have to read it, but it sums up my feelings on this matter quite well. It's by Howard Zinn:

Quote:

Hiroshima; Breaking the Silence

The bomb dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 turned into powder and ash, in a few moments, the flesh and bones of 140,000 men, women, and children. Three days later, a second atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki killed perhaps 70,000 instantly. In the next five years, another 130,000 inhabitants of those two cities died of radiation poisoning.

No one will ever know the exact figures, but these come from the most exhaustive report available, Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The Physical, Medical, and Social Effects of the Atomic Bombings, put together by a team of thirty-four Japanese scientists and physicians, then translated and published in this country in 1981. Those statistics do not include countless other people who were left alive, but maimed, poisoned, disfigured, blinded.

We live in a time where our minds have been so battered by the statistics of death and suffering that figures in the millions leave us numb, and nothing but the personal testimony of individuals, even if it can only faintly represent the reality, is capable of shaking us out of that numbness.

A Japanese schoolgirl, sixteen at the time, recalled years later that it was a beautiful morning. She saw a B-29 fly by, then a flash. She put her hands up and "my hands went right through my face." She saw "a man without feet, walking on his ankles." She passed out. "By the time I wake up, black rain was falling. I thought I was blind, but I got my eyes open, and I saw a beautiful blue sky and the dead city. Nobody is standing up. Nobody is walking around. I wanted to go home to my mother.

This was Kimuko Laskey, speaking in broken English at a Washington, D.C. Senate hearing. We need to recall her testimony and that of others: "A woman with her jaw missing and her tongue hanging out of her mouth was wandering around, in the heavy black rain, crying for help."

In The Making of the Atomic Bomb, probably the most thorough and most vivid narrative of that long, costly, and secret enterprise on the New Mexico desert known as "The Manhattan Project," Richard Rhodes, scrupulously controlled up to this point, describes the results with unmistakable feeling: "People exposed within half a mile of the Little Boy fireball were seared to bundles of smoking black char in a fraction of a second as their internal organs boiled away. The small black bundles now stuck to the streets and bridges and sidewalks of Hiroshima numbered in the thousands. At the same instant birds ignited in midair. Mosquitoes and flies, squirrels, family pets crackled and were gone."

Robert Jay Lifton, a psychiatrist who refused to work within the orthodox limits of his profession, was one of the first, in his book, Death In Life, to interview survivors. A junior college girl in Hiroshima remembered: "The faces of my friends who just before were working energetically are now burned and blistered, their clothes torn to rags. Our teacher is holding her students close to her like a mother hen protecting her chicks, and like baby chicks paralyzed with terror, the students were thrusting their heads under her arms."

A woman, then a girl in the 5th grade, remembered: "Everybody in the shelter was crying out loud. I do not know how many times I called begging that they would cut off my burned arms and legs.

One of the first of American journalists on the scene after the bombing was John Hersey. His articles in The New Yorker were reproduced in the book, Hiroshima, and delivered the first shock to an American public still celebrating the end of the war. Hersey interviewed six survivors: a clerk, a tailor's widow, a priest, a doctor, a surgical assistant, a pastor. He found that of a hundred and fifty doctors in the city, sixty-five were already dead and most of the rest were wounded. Of 1780 nurses, 1654 were dead or so badly wounded that they could not work. Hersey reported on his interview of the pastor,

Mr. Tanimoto reached down and took a woman by the hands, but her skin slipped off in huge, glove-like pieces. He was so shocked by this that he had to sit down for a moment. He had to keep consciously repeating to himself, 'These are human beings.'

Only with those scenes in our minds can we judge the distressingly cold arguments that go on now, 50 years later, about whether it was right to send those planes out those two mornings in August of 1945. That this is arguable is a devastating commentary on our moral culture.

And yet, the arguments must be met, because they continue to be advanced, in one form or another, every time the organized power of the state is used to commit an atrocity-whether the setting is Auschwitz or My Lai or Chechnya, or Waco, Texas or the firebombing of the MOVE people in Philadelphia. When private bands of fanatics commit atrocities we call them "terrorists," which they are, and have no trouble dismissing their reasons. But when governments do the same, and on a much larger scale, the word "terrorism" is not used, and we consider it a sign of our democracy that the acts become subject to debate. If the word "terrorism" has a useful meaning (and I believe it does, because it marks off an act as intolerable, since it involves the indiscriminate use of violence against human beings for some political purpose), then it applies exactly to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The sociologist Kai Erikson, reviewing the report by the Japanese team of scientists, wrote:

"The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not 'combat' in any of the ways that word is normally used. Nor were they primarily attempts to destroy military targets, for the two cities had been chosen not despite but because they had a high density of civilian housing. Whether the intended audience was Russian or Japanese or a combination of both, then the attacks were to be a show, a display, a demonstration. The question is: What kind of mood does a fundamentally decent people have to be in, what kind of moral arrangements must it make, before it is willing to annihilate as many as a quarter of a million human beings for the sake of making a point."

Let's leave aside the phrase "a fundamentally decent people," which raises troubling questions: Are Americans more deserving of that description than others? Are not all atrocities committed by "fundamentally decent people" who have been maneuvered into situations that derange the common sense of morality of all human beings?

Rather, let's examine the question properly raised by Kai Erikson, a question enormously important precisely because it does not permit us to dismiss horrors as acts inevitably committed by horrible people. It forces us to ask: what "kind of mood," what "moral arrangements" would cause us, in whatever society we live, with whatever "fundamental decency" we possess, to either perpetrate (as bombardiers, or atomic scientists, or political leaders), or to just accept (as obedient citizens), the burning of children in vast numbers.

That is a question not just about some past and irretrievable event involving someone else, but about all of us, living today in the midst of outrages different in detail but morally equivalent, to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The continued accumulation by nations (ours being first) of atomic weapons a thousand times more deadly, ten thousand times more numerous, than those first bombs. The expenditure each year of a trillion dollars for these and what are soberly called "conventional" weapons, while fourteen million children die each year for lack of food or medical care.

We would need then, to examine the psychological and political environment in which the atomic bombs could be dropped and defended as legitimate, as necessary. That is, the climate of World War II.

It was a climate of unquestioned moral righteousness. The enemy was Fascism. The brutalities of Fascism were undisguised by pretense: the concentration camps, the murder of opponents, the tortures by secret police, the burning of books, the total control of information, the roving gangs of thugs in the streets, the designation of "inferior" races deserving extermination, the infallible leader, the mass hysteria, the glorification of war, the invasion of other countries, the bombing of civilians. No literary work of imagination could create a more monstrous evil. There was, indeed, no reason to question that the enemy in World War II was monstrous and had to be stopped before it enveloped more victims.

But it is precisely that situation-where the enemy is undebatably evil-that produces a righteousness dangerous not only to the enemy, but to ourselves, to countless innocent bystanders, and to future generations.

We could judge the enemy with some clarity. But not ourselves. If we did, we might have noted some facts clouding the simple judgement that since they were unquestionably evil, we were unquestionably good.

The pronoun "we" is the first deception, because it merges the individual consciences of the citizenry with the motives of the state. If our (the citizens') moral intent in making war is clear-in this case the defeat of Fascism, the halt to international aggression-we assume the same intent on the part of "our" government. Indeed, it is the government which has proclaimed the moral issues in order to better mobilize the population for war, and encouraged us to assume that we, government and citizens, have the same objectives.

There is a long history to that deception, from the Peloponnesian wars of the fifth century before Christ through the Crusades and other "religious" wars, into modern times, when larger sections of population must be mobilized, and the technology of modern communication is used to advance more sophisticated slogans of moral purity.

As for our country, we recall expelling Spain from Cuba, ostensibly to liberate the Cubans, actually to open Cuba to our banks, railroads, fruit corporations, and army. We conscripted our young men and sent them into the slaughterhouse of Europe in 1917 to "make the world safe for democracy." (Note how difficult it is to avoid the "we," the "our," that assimilates government and people into an indistinguishable body; but it may be useful to remind us that we're responsible for what the government does.)

In World War II, the assumption of a common motive for government and citizen was easier to accept because of the obvious barbarity of Fascism. But can we accept the idea that England, France, the United States, with their long history of imperial domination in Asia, in Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, were fighting against international aggression? Against German, Italian, Japanese aggression certainly. But against their own?

Indeed, although the desperate need for support in the war brought forth the idealistic language of the Atlantic Charter with its promise of self-determination, when the war ended the colonized people of Indochina had to fight against the French, the Indonesians against the Dutch, the Malaysians against the British, the Africans against the European powers, the Filipinos against the United States, to fulfill that promise.

The question of "motive" for the United States in making war against Japan is put this way by Bruce Russett in his book, No Clear and Present Danger:

"Throughout the 1930s the United States government had done little to resist the Japanese advance on the Asian continent. But: The Southwest Pacific area was of undeniable economic importance to the United States-at the time most of America's tin and rubber came from there, as did substantial quantities of other raw materials.:

Again on the American motive. A year before Pearl Harbor, a State Department memorandum on Japanese expansion did not talk of the independence of China or the principle of self-determination. It said:

"our general diplomatic and strategic position would be considerably weakened-by our loss of Chinese, Indian and South Seas markets (and by our loss of much of the Japanese market for our goods, as Japan would become more and more self-sufficient) as well as by insurmountable restrictions upon our access to the rubber, tin, jute, and other vital materials of the Asian and Oceanic regions."

That has a familiar sound. Shortly after World War II, in the early 1950s, massive American aid to the French fighting to hold on to their pre-war colony of Indochina was accompanied by righteous declarations of the need to fight Communism. But the internal memoranda of National Security Council were talking of the U.S. need for tin, rubber, and oil.

There were pious statements about self-determination, noble words in the Atlantic Charter that the Allies "seek no aggrandizement, territorial or other." However, two weeks before the Charter, U.S. Acting Secretary of State Sumner Welles was assuring the French government: This Government, mindful of its traditional friendship for France, has deeply sympathized with the desire of the French people to maintain their territories and to preserve them intact."

It is understandable that the pages of the Defense Department's official history of the Vietnam War (The Pentagon Papers) were marked "TOP SECRET-Sensitive," because they reveal that in late 1942 President Roosevelt's personal representative assured French General Henri Giraud: "It is thoroughly understood that French sovereignty will be re-established as soon as possible throughout all the territory, metropolitan or colonial, over which flew the French flag in 1939."

As for the motives of Stalin and the Soviet Union -- it is absurd even to ask if they were fighting against the police state, against dictatorship? Yes, against German dictatorship, the Nazi police state, but not their own. Before, during, and after the war against Fascism, the fascism of the gulag persisted, and expanded.

And if the world might be deluded into thinking that the war was fought to end military intervention by great powers in the affairs of weaker countries, the post-war years quickly countered that delusion, as the two important victors -- the United States and the Soviet Union -- sent their armies, or surrogate armed forces, into countries in Central America and Eastern Europe.

Did the Allied powers go to war to save the Jews from persecution, imprisonment, extermination? In the years before the war, when the Nazis had already begun their brutal attacks on the Jews, the United States, England, and France maintained silence. President Roosevelt and Secretary of State Hull were reluctant to put the United States on record against the anti-Semitic measures in Germany.

Shortly after we were at war, reports began to arrive that Hitler was planning the annihilation of the Jews. Roosevelt's administration failed to act again and again when there were opportunities to save Jews. There is no way of knowing how many Jews could have been saved in various ways that were not pursued. What is lear is that saving Jewish lives was not the highest priority.

Hitler's racism was brutally clear. The racism of the Allies, with their long history of the subjugation of colored people around the World, seemed forgotten, except by the people themselves. Many of them, like India's Gandhi, had difficulty being enthusiastic about a war fought by the white imperial powers they knew so well.

In the United States, despite powerful attempts to mobilize the African-American population for the war, there was distinct resistance. Racial segregation was not just a Southern fact, but a national policy. hat is, the Supreme Court of the United States, in 1896, had declared such segregation to be lawful, and that was still the law of the land during World War II. It was not a Confederate army but the armed forces of the United States which segregated black from white all through the war.

A student at a black college told his teacher: "The Army jim-crows us. The Navy lets us serve only as messmen. The Red Cross refuses our blood. Employers and labor unions shut us out. Lynchings continue. We are disenfranchised, jim-crowed, spat upon. What more could Hitler do than that?"

When NAACP leader Walter White repeated that statement to an audience of several thousand in the Midwest, expecting they would disapprove, instead: "To my surprise and dismay the audience burst into such applause that it took me some thirty or forty seconds to quiet it."

Large numbers of blacks did go along with Joe Louis' famous statement that "There's lots of things wrong here, but Hitler won't cure them." And many were anxious to show their courage in combat. But the long history of American racism cast a cloud over the idealism of the war against Fascism.

There was another test of the proposition that the war against the Axis powers was in good part a war against racism. That came in the treatment of Japanese-Americans on the West Coast. There was contempt for the Nazis, but with the Japanese there was a special factor, that of race. After Pearl Harbor, Congressman John Rankin of Mississippi said: "I'm for catching every Japanese in America, Alaska and Hawaii now and putting them in concentration camps. Damn them! Let's get rid of them now!"

Anti-Japanese hysteria grew. Racists, military and civilian, persuaded President Roosevelt that the Japanese on the West Coast constituted a threat to the security of the country, and in February of 1942 he igned Executive Order 9066. This empowered the army, without warrants or indictments or hearings, to arrest every Japanese-American on the West Coast, most of them born in the United States-120,000 men, women, and children -- to take them from their homes, and transport them to "detention camps," which were really concentration camps.

Michi Weglyn, who was a small girl removed from her home with her family, responded to Roosevelt's description of the bombing of Pearl Harbor as "a date that will live in infamy" by writing a book she titled Years of Infamy. In it, she tells of the misery, confusion, anger, and also of resistance, strikes, petitions, mass meetings, riots against camp authorities.

John Dower, in War Without Mercy, documents the racist atmosphere that developed quickly, both in Japan, and in the United States. Time magazine said: "The ordinary unreasoning Jap is ignorant. Perhaps he is human. Nothing indicates it."

Indeed, the Japanese army had committed terrible atrocities, in China, in the Philippines. So did all armies, everywhere, but Americans were not considered subhuman although, as Pacific war correspondent Edgar Jones reported, U.S. forces "shot prisoners, wiped out hospitals, strafed lifeboats."

We did do indiscriminate bombing-not atomic but with enormous civilian casualties-of German cities. Yet, we know that racism is insidious, intensifying all other factors. And the persistent notion that the Japanese were less than human probably played some role in the willingness to wipe out two cities populated by people of color.

In any case, the American people were prepared, psychologically, to accept and even applaud the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One eason was that although some mysterious new science was involved, it seemed like a continuation of the massive bombing of European cities that had already taken place.

No one seemed conscious of the irony-that one of the reasons for general indignation against the Fascist powers was their history of indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations. Italy had bombed civilians in Ethiopia in its conquest of that country in 1935. Japan had bombed Shanghai, Nanking, other Chinese cities. Germany and Italy had bombed Madrid, Guernica, other Spanish cities in that country's civil war. At the start of World War II, Nazi planes dropped bombs on the civilian populations of Rotterdam in Holland, Coventry in England.

Franklin D. Roosevelt described these bombings as "inhuman barbarism that has profoundly shocked the conscience of humanity." But very soon, the United States and Britain were doing the same thing and on a far larger scale. The Allied leaders met at Casablanca in January, 1943 and agreed on massive air attacks to achieve "the destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial and economic system and the undermining of the morale of the German people to the point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened."

This euphemism-"undermining of the morale" was another way of saying that the mass killing of ordinary civilians by carpet bombing was now an important strategy of the war. Once used in World War II, it would become generally accepted after the war, even as nations were dutifully signing on to the U.N. Charter pledging to end "the scourge of war." It would become American policy in Korea, in Vietnam, and in Iraq.

In short, terrorism, condemned by governments when conducted by nationalist or religious extremists, was now being adopted as official policy. It was given legitimacy because it was used to defeat certain Fascist powers. But it kept alive the spirit of Fascism.

In November of 1942, the chief of the British Air Staff, Sir Charles Portal, suggested that in 1943 and 1944 one and a half million tons of bombs could be dropped on Germany, destroying 6 million homes, killing 900,000 people, and seriously injuring a million more. British historian John Terraine, writing about this in his book, The Right of the Line, calls this "a prescription for massacre, nothing more nor less."

Churchill and his advisers having decided, with American agreement, on the bombing of working-class districts in German cities, the saturation bombing began. There were raids of a thousand planes on Cologne, Essen, Frankfurt. In the summer of 1943, the bombing of Hamburg created what came to be known as a Feuersturm, a firestorm, in which intense heat created by the bombs sucked out the air, bringing hurricane-like winds that spread the flames throughout the city.

In February of 1945 British planes, flying at night, created firestorms in Dresden, and U.S. planes, flying in the daytime, compounded the burning of the city. It was a city crowded with refugees, and no one knows how many died. At least 35,000. Perhaps 100,000. Kurt Vonnegut gave us some sense of the horror of this in his novel, Slaughterhouse Five.

Churchill, in his wartime memoirs described the event tersely: "We made a heavy raid in the latter month on Dresden, then a center of communication of Germany's Eastern Front." The British pilot of a Lancaster bomber was more explicit: "There was a sea of fire covering in my estimation some 50 square miles."

One incident remembered by survivors is that on the afternoon of February 14, 1945, American fighter planes machine-gunned clusters of refugees on the banks of the Elbe. A German woman told of this years later. "We ran along the Elbe stepping over the bodies."

The actor Richard Burton, who was engaged to play the role of Winston Churchill in a television drama, wrote afterward:

"In the course of preparing myself, I realized fresh that I hate Churchill and all of his kind. They have stalked down the corridors of endless power all through history. What man of sanity would say on hearing of the atrocities committed by the Japanese: 'We shall wipe them out, everyone of them, men, women and children. There shall not be a Japanese left on the face of the earth.' Such simple-minded cravings for revenge leave me with a horrified but reluctant awe for such ferocity."

The British flew at night and did "area bombing," with no pretense of iming at specific military targets. The Americans flew in the daytime, pretending to precision, but bombing from high altitudes made that impossible. (When I was doing my practice bombing in Deming, New Mexico, before going overseas, our egos were built up by having us fly at 4000 feet and drop a bomb within twenty feet of the target. But at 11,000 feet, we were more likely to miss by 200 feet. Flying combat missions at 30,000 feet, we might miss by a quarter of a mile.)

There was huge self-deception, not among the political leaders, who consciously made the decisions, but on the part of the lower-level military who carried them out. We had been angered when the Germans bombed cities and killed several hundred or a thousand people. But now the British and Americans were killing tens of thousands in a single air strike. Michael Sherry, in his classic study, The Rise of American Air Power, notes that "so few in the air force asked questions." (I certainly did not, participating in a napalm bombing of the French town of Royan a few weeks before the end of the war in Europe.)

Journalists and writers, enlisted in the propaganda campaign, went along with government policy. John Steinbeck, in his book, Bombs Away, said: "We were all part of the war effort."

One month after the Dresden bombing, on the 10th of March, 1945, 300 B-29's flew over Tokyo at low altitude, with cylinders of napalm and 500-pound clusters of magnesium incendiaries. It was after midnight. Over a million people had evacuated Tokyo, but six million remained. Fire swept with incredible speed through the flimsy dwellings of the poor. The atmosphere became superheated to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit. People jumped into the river for protection and were boiled alive. The estimates were of 85,000 to 100,000 dead. They died of oxygen deficiency, carbon monoxide, radiant heat, direct flames, flying debris, or were trampled to death (Masuo Kato, The Lost War: A Japanese Reporter's Story).

Katsumoto Saotome was 12 years old then: "It was like looking at a picture through a red filter, the fire was like a living thing. It ran, just like a creature, chasing us."

That spring there were more such raids on Kobe, Nagoya, Osaka, and in late May another huge bombing of what remained of Tokyo. This was accompanied in the press by continued dehumanization of the enemy. Life magazine showed a picture of a Japanese burning to death and commented: "This is the only way."

By the time the decision was made to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, our minds had been prepared. Their side was vicious beyond description. Therefore, whatever we did was morally right. Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo and their general staffs became indistinguishable from German civilians, or Japanese school children. The U.S. Air Force General Curtis LeMay (the same one who, during the Vietnam war, said: "We will bomb them back to the Stone Age") asserted: "There is no such thing as an innocent civilian."




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1788752 - 08/07/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Sure would be cool if you just used your own words to argue the point. I am not saying it was a great thing or anything. It did end the war, and saved lives on both sides. Would you have been happier had it not happened and Japan turned into an Empire controlling all of Asia? The Japanese attacked us first to drag us into the war. We ended it. The leadership of Japan was pretty much insane. They would have been willing to sacrifice nearly the entire population to defend the islands.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788763 - 08/07/03 03:54 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

you've opened up pandora's box ya know that? There are many (and foolishly so) that believe we knew aboot the attacks of pearl harbor and we used that as an excuse to entr the war. This is another portion of the world game ie: "the United States, Damned if they do, Damned if they don't"

Hindsight is as everyone knows it is.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788774 - 08/07/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Anyone who believes that is an idiot. We were trying our best to stay out of it.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788783 - 08/07/03 03:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I figured you would ignore the rest of the post. The army headquarters were in Hiroshima. I am not saying it was a full military target with no civilians be any means. Look, the Japanese were trying to take over the entire world, and Truman had to do something to stop them. I don't understand why no one ever remembers that. It is always the US's fault.




LOL...the Japanese were trying to take over the entire world?...You gotta be kidding me...get your facts straight.

First of all, the Japanese were basically forced into attacking the U.S. BY the U.S. They had unreasonble demands put on them that Truman knew the Japanese would never agree to.

Secondly..by the time Truman decided to nuke Japan...the Japanese were already beaten badly...

I'm not saying that the U.S. is the only country at fault though...because atrocities were commited by both sides.

In all honesty I may have a personal bias regarding this issue since I was adopted by Japanese parents...and both of them have spent time in Japanese Internment camps after having all of their property and belongings taken away from them despite the fact that they were born here.


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Edited by Rono (08/07/03 04:05 PM)


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788795 - 08/07/03 04:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

You'll notice there are a lot of Self rightious people on this site (noone in particular). They would have done a better job because they know all. I would like to see some threads as to the good things that the United States does for the world but i doubt we will ever see that because we all know that we as Americans do ABSOLUTLY nothing for the rest of the world. All the better for me and my pro-isolationist position.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788796 - 08/07/03 04:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Anyone who believes that is an idiot. We were trying our best to stay out of it.




You poor, poor deluded man...There is much evidence that has surfaced in recent years to show that Truman had FULL knowledge of the Attacks and even provoked them in order to enter the war...do a google search.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788798 - 08/07/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I would like to see some threads as to the good things that the United States does for the world


Nothing is stopping you is it?


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788800 - 08/07/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

There is much evidence that has surfaced in recent years to show that Truman had FULL knowledge of the Attacks




*snicker*


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/07/03 04:05 PM)


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788806 - 08/07/03 04:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nothing is stopping you is it?




and i have.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788818 - 08/07/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I could have used my own words, but it would have sucked, I'm not that eloquent. Besides, that's all I really planned to post on this suject. I can't sit here and debate whether or not their deaths were somehow justfied, our viewpoints are far too opposed for either of us to be effective on the other. I can't justify killing another human being at all.

#edit# I could have sworn I hit reply to Shakta


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (08/07/03 04:09 PM)


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788820 - 08/07/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LOL...the Japanese were trying to take over the entire world?...You gotta be kidding me...get your facts straight.




Alright, how about a significant portion of it. Does that make you feel better.

Quote:

First of all, the Japanese were basically forced into attacking the U.S. BY the U.S. They had unreasonble demands put on them that Truman knew the Japanese would never agree to.




What the fuck are you talking about? Truman wasn't even President when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Quote:

Secondly..by the time Truman decided to nuke Japan...the Japanese were already beaten badly...




Not true either. It would have taken quite a while to beat them. They would have defended the islands very fiercely.

Quote:

In all honesty I may have a personal bias regarding this issue since I was adopted by Japanese parents...and both of them have spent time in Japanese Internment camps after having all of their property and belongings taken away from them.




That was a horrible thing that we did do. Locking up the Japanese Americans was wrong. People were scared as hell, and thought it was a good idea. It of course was not.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788822 - 08/07/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Well the americans killed many more "innocent" japanese by fire bomibng the island with napalm. And the japs were not beaten badly. Many many more would have died during any invasion. The japs would have forced those "fishermen" you speak of you try and fight. The fact is many more died from napalm and many more would have died during an invasion. The bombings saved many lives.

And rono why didnt the japs surrender after the first bomb that dropped. i think that must prove how crazy they are.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788831 - 08/07/03 04:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Sure would be cool if you just used your own words to argue the point. I am not saying it was a great thing or anything. It did end the war, and saved lives on both sides. Would you have been happier had it not happened and Japan turned into an Empire controlling all of Asia? The Japanese attacked us first to drag us into the war. We ended it. The leadership of Japan was pretty much insane. They would have been willing to sacrifice nearly the entire population to defend the islands.




Your ignorance of history is appalling. But not surprising, since the history of the bombings is whitewashed in the US.

First of all, it was not necessary to use the bombs to stop Japan from turning into an "Empire controlling all of Asia." The Japanese had already been more or less evicted from the rest of Asia by the time the bombs were dropped. There were few holdout platoons here and there, but the Japanese did not exercise any further control of the Asian colonies.

Your belief that the leadership of Japan "would have been willing to sacrifice nearly the entire population to defend the islands" is logically inconsistent. If that were the case they would have kept fighting, A-bomb or no A-bomb.

It was not necessary to drop the bombs on heavily populated cities. The US could have dropped the first one on a relatively uninhabited area. This would have demonstrated the sheer destructive power of the bomb just as effectively.

They should have given the Japanese a week to survey the damage with the ultimatum that either they surrender or the next one lands on a city.

The key reason that the Japanese were unwilling to surrender was that they were afraid the Americans would try and execute the emperor. The US gave every indication that that's what it would do--before the surrender. After the surrender, of course, MacArthur and the occupation force realized that executing the emperor would make the Japanese completely ungovernable and decided to let him off the hook anyway. The Japanese would have surrendered much more readily had they known in the first place that the emperor would be spared.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians were massacred. That is crime against humanity. If you wish to defend and justify such an action, be my guest. I won't shed any tears though if it's your ass that's vaporized next time.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788853 - 08/07/03 04:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

[
And rono why didnt the japs surrender after the first bomb that dropped. i think that must prove how crazy they are.




They only had 72 hours between one bomb and the next. The first bombing was something completely unparalleled in history. It takes a little more than 72 hours for a completely new and unfathomable reality to set in.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788858 - 08/07/03 04:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The fact is we were at war with japan. It had to ended somehow. The choices presented at the time were invasion or drop the a-bomb. And the japs had enought time to see "omg a whole city is gone from one bomb lets call the americans" so dont say they need to "survey" the damage. Although i would agree maybe showing them the force of the bomb first could have prevented them from being dropped on the areas they were but i really doubt they would have surrendured when shown a test.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788863 - 08/07/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

A couple of things. They did not know if the bombs would really work. They had two shots and needed to use them effectively. The American public did not want to lose another hundred thousand soldiers trying to defeat Japan. They started the war with us, and we finished it. Had their defeat been more assured, or had we had a fuller arsenal a demonstration of the devices would have been a better choice. It took two bombs for them to surrender. That should give an indication of the amount of dedication they had to not giving up. At that point, they knew they were beat and gave up. The Japanese were a very savage empire. What they did to the Koreans alone was enough to warrant the force used to stop them. I don't know if they could have gained control of Asia at that point or not, the main point again is that Truman felt it would save lives on both sides to end it quickly.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788872 - 08/07/03 04:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
The fact is we were at war with japan. It had to ended somehow. The choices presented at the time were invasion or drop the a-bomb. And the japs had enought time to see "omg a whole city is gone from one bomb lets call the americans" so dont say they need to "survey" the damage. Although i would agree maybe showing them the force of the bomb first could have prevented them from being dropped on the areas they were but i really doubt they would have surrendured when shown a test.




Can you step back for a second and actually think before making a knee-jerk reaction?

OK, you "doubt" that they would have surrendered when shown a test? And that doubt justifies killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians? Why not at least have given them the chance? The US had nothing to lose by waiting a few days.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788879 - 08/07/03 04:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Why wouldn't they need to "survey" the damage...it's not like they had satellite or any effective communications after the bomb was dropped.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788882 - 08/07/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Don't forget, the Japanese were the ones who invented the concept of "Kamikaze Pilot." The mentality of the U.S.'s enemy was better understood by Truman and his contemporaries than by present day Americans who never had to face the horrors of fighting the Japanese on Pacific islands.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1788891 - 08/07/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
Don't forget, the Japanese were the ones who invented the concept of "Kamikaze Pilot." The mentality of the U.S.'s enemy was better understood by Truman and his contemporaries than by present day Americans who never had to face the horrors of fighting the Japanese on Pacific islands.




Good point. They were pretty much crazy. My grandfather was in the South Pacific. The battles for the islands were some of the bloodiest of the war. They had no problem sending wave after wave of soldiers to their death.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788892 - 08/07/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The japs could see the force of the bomb and launch every last thing it had on the americans or any surronding country for that matter. Form a country that suported kamikazis i could see this happening.

And rono i can drive a car from where the former emperor was at to hiroshima no problem at tell that the place was destroyed. It not hard to look at around and see nothing for a 5 mile radius from where the bombs blew up.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788895 - 08/07/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
A couple of things. They did not know if the bombs would really work. They had two shots and needed to use them effectively. The American public did not want to lose another hundred thousand soldiers trying to defeat Japan. They started the war with us, and we finished it. Had their defeat been more assured, or had we had a fuller arsenal a demonstration of the devices would have been a better choice. It took two bombs for them to surrender. That should give an indication of the amount of dedication they had to not giving up. At that point, they knew they were beat and gave up. The Japanese were a very savage empire. What they did to the Koreans alone was enough to warrant the force used to stop them. I don't know if they could have gained control of Asia at that point or not, the main point again is that Truman felt it would save lives on both sides to end it quickly.




The question of whether the bombs would work or not is moot. If you dropped it on a forest and it didn't work, the Japanese wouldn't be any the wiser. They wouldn't even know that the US tried. They would have still had one left. If it came to that, they could have dropped the remaining bomb on a city. That's not what happened. They didn't even try.

They would have surrendered after a demonstration if they knew the emperor would have been allowed to survive, which is what happened anyway.

Do you really expect anybody with a grain of sense to think that Truman gave a rat's ass about Japanese lives when he made his decision? Of course his job was to put American lives first. Nothing wrong with that. Waiting a few days wouldn't have made a significant difference in saving American lives, although it would have made a HUGE difference in saving Japanese civilian lives.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788908 - 08/07/03 04:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

He did wait a few days. You have got to be kidding when you say they did not know what the damage from the first bomb was like. They did have planes after all. I think that would have been plenty of time to fly a plane over the city, and report back to Tokyo. The point you are missing about the bombs not working is Truman could not afford to take that risk. These were the only two bombs available. Neither one were guaranteed to work. Wasting either one of them could have left them with nothing. Again hindsight is 20/20.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788912 - 08/07/03 04:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

For one we did test a-bombs in nevada before we dropped them on japan. They knew they would work.

And again americans killed more japs with napalm then the a-bombs did combined. Killing wasent new to the world. And again i would expect anything from a country where its "innocent" people commit suicide before the americans reached their island.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788919 - 08/07/03 04:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
For one we did test a-bombs in nevada before we dropped them on japan. They knew they would work.

And again americans killed more japs with napalm then the a-bombs did combined. Killing wasent new to the world. And again i would expect anything from a country where its "innocent" people commit suicide before the americans reached their island.




They never dropped one from a plane though. The rigged the test bomb up with all the wires hooked to it in a cradle. That is a bit different than dumping it out of plane that is hauling ass.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788931 - 08/07/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

So they added a timer and put it in a metal casing. The americans would not have droped an almost working nuke with uranium included if it didnt know if it work 99%. Imagine if it didnt work and then the japs had an almost functional bomb. Turman wouldnt have risked that uless it was 99%


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788940 - 08/07/03 04:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
The japs could see the force of the bomb and launch every last thing it had on the americans or any surronding country for that matter. Form a country that suported kamikazis i could see this happening.

And rono i can drive a car from where the former emperor was at to hiroshima no problem at tell that the place was destroyed. It not hard to look at around and see nothing for a 5 mile radius from where the bombs blew up.




Once again, what none of you can seem address is why the Japanese were never given a fair chance to consider their options and the consequences of each choice. All you can do is repeat this stupid mantra about how crazy the Japanese were. If they were really that crazy, they would have kept fighting a guerrilla insurgency war against the US until hell froze over. After the occupation, however, they were completely cooperative with the US and simply went about doing the work of rebuilding their country, which they did with a measure of success that puts most of the rest of the world to shame.

They were never given a reasonable opportunity to weigh all of the options. They just woke up one morning and a city was vaporized. This had more to do with Truman's racism and his desire to show the Soviet Union who's boss than with saving lives.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788959 - 08/07/03 04:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I said before if the japs were shown the force of the bomb they surely would have known it was there end (they would have easily thought the americans has a great supply of these). So the japs could have a launched an all out attack on americans and other countried in the areas. They were going to do anything to try and win.

Again we killed more japs with napalm then the nukes. And we would have killed more by invading.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788966 - 08/07/03 04:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

BS. 3 days is plenty of time to figure out that one of your cities just dissapeared and you don't want it to happen again. Maybe, they thought it was the only one we had or something. I don't know. Truman's racism? OK.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788976 - 08/07/03 04:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
He did wait a few days. You have got to be kidding when you say they did not know what the damage from the first bomb was like. They did have planes after all. I think that would have been plenty of time to fly a plane over the city, and report back to Tokyo. The point you are missing about the bombs not working is Truman could not afford to take that risk. These were the only two bombs available. Neither one were guaranteed to work. Wasting either one of them could have left them with nothing. Again hindsight is 20/20.




What you don't understand is that processing something like that is more than just a matter of taking pictures and flying them back to Tokyo. Understanding something like an A-bomb takes a complete paradigm shift in how one views the world. It takes time to take the pictures, time to take them back, time to examine them, time to convene meetings of all of the decision-making bodies involved (contrary to popular belief, the emperor just didn't issue orders that were immediately followed. He had to play politics as well). All of this takes time. There was also the fact that Japanese diplomats were desperately trying to contact their US counterparts during this period and being rebuffed. This whole thing is far, far more complicated than what your history teachers and mass media have taught you. Somehow, though, I know I shouldn't hold my breath until the day comes that you actually sit down and read balanced and well-documented study of the issue.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788990 - 08/07/03 04:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
BS. 3 days is plenty of time to figure out that one of your cities just dissapeared and you don't want it to happen again. Maybe, they thought it was the only one we had or something. I don't know. Truman's racism? OK.




The only thing that's BS here is your brainwashed belief that the United States can do no wrong.

Read some history, kid.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788999 - 08/07/03 04:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

As for taking pictures and sending them back, when someone tells you an intire city is gone that will make quite an ipact. And im sure the japs were trying to call the americans but they would just never pick up.

Truman: "Muahahahah i hate japanese first i destroy 1 city. MUAHAHAHAHAHA now i wont pick up the phone so i get to drop another. MUAHAHAHAH MUAHAHAHA MUAHAHAHAHA"

im sure thats what truman was thinking


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789014 - 08/07/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Kid? How old are you?

I never said the US could do no wrong. We have made plenty of mistakes over the years, I just don't think this is one of them.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789029 - 08/07/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly. Think about how collectively shocked the US was after 9/11 and what it's done to the national psyche.

Now think about what it would be like to be the first people on earth to witness first hand the terrifying power of an atomic bomb. Think about seeing a city engulfed in the brightness of a thousand suns and then destroyed in seconds. Think about 140,000 people going about their lives and then being vaporised in an instant. It would be like the fucking apocalypse, piles of dust where people used to be, shadows scorched into walls. Black poison rain falling from the sky. Hundreds of thousand injured and dying, and three days is enough for them to wonder what the fuck just happened?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1789030 - 08/07/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Generals Eisenhower and MacArthur, as well as Admiral William Leahy, were AGAINST the bombings. So were the scientists who had worked on the project.

Why would Eisenhower and MacArthur of all people have been against it? Why? So they could see tens or hundreds of thousands of their own troops get killed? Obviously, they realized that other options were available. Those options included diplomacy, test demonstrations of the bomb on uninhabited territory or even on purely military targets, or, best of all, a combination of those two. The belief that the Japanese would have fought to the last man, woman, and child to protect the archipelago from invasion is nothing other than propaganda. When the US did finally occupy Japan the locals were completely compliant and cooperative, and its not because they were afraid the Americans were going to drop another A-Bomb on them. The reason is because the Emperor was allowed to live.

All the US had to do to stop the war was to offer peace terms that allowed the Emperor to stay alive. Under those terms the Japanese would have readily surrendered. And since THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED ANYWAY, what was the point of dropping the bomb? Even with the two bombs, the US occupation authorities realized that trying the Emperor for war crimes would have made their job in Japan infinitely more difficult. As long as they let him stay, everything was smooth as butter.

The US never offered peace on those terms before the bombs were dropped. In fact, the US never made ANY diplomatic peace overtures at all before the bombs were dropped. To say that the Japanese would have fought to the end is an easy lie to propagate because the Japanese were never even given a warning or a chance to surrender. The US just dropped one bomb on a city, killing 140,000, waited three days, and then dropped another one, killing 70,000.

In fact, Truman had standing orders to bomb TWO MORE cities in Japan as soon as the bombs became available. This is blatant disregard for human life.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1789032 - 08/07/03 05:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Kid? How old are you?

I never said the US could do no wrong. We have made plenty of mistakes over the years, I just don't think this is one of them.




Tell you what. When your posts start showing evidence of an education above the 8th grade level, I'll stop calling you kid. I know plenty of 80-year-old ignoramuses. Age is no substitute for education.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789037 - 08/07/03 05:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Just thought I'd toss this in. The bodface is mine, not the author's.

from: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/05/nyt.kristof/index.html --

While American scholarship has undercut the U.S. moral position, Japanese historical research has bolstered it. The Japanese scholarship, by historians like Sadao Asada of Doshisha University in Kyoto, notes that Japanese wartime leaders who favored surrender saw their salvation in the atomic bombing. The Japanese military was steadfastly refusing to give up, so the peace faction seized upon the bombing as a new argument to force surrender.

"We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war," Koichi Kido, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest aides, said later.

Wartime records and memoirs show that the emperor and some of his aides wanted to end the war by summer 1945. But they were vacillating and couldn't prevail over a military that was determined to keep going even if that meant, as a navy official urged at one meeting, "sacrificing 20 million Japanese lives."

The atomic bombings broke this political stalemate and were thus described by Mitsumasa Yonai, the navy minister at the time, as a "gift from heaven."

Without the atomic bombings, Japan would have continued fighting by inertia. This would have meant more firebombing of Japanese cities and a ground invasion, planned for November 1945, of the main Japanese islands. The fighting over the small, sparsely populated islands of Okinawa had killed 14,000 Americans and 200,000 Japanese, and in the main islands the toll would have run into the millions.

"The atomic bomb was a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war," Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief cabinet secretary in 1945, said later.

Some argue that the U.S. could have demonstrated the bomb on an uninhabited island, or could have encouraged surrender by promising that Japan could keep its emperor. Yes, perhaps, and we should have tried. We could also have waited longer before dropping the second bomb, on Nagasaki.

But, sadly, the record suggests that restraint would not have worked. The Japanese military ferociously resisted surrender even after two atomic bombings on major cities, even after Soviet entry into the war, even when it expected another atomic bomb ? on Tokyo.

One of the great tales of World War II concerns an American fighter pilot named Marcus McDilda who was shot down on Aug. 8 and brutally interrogated about the atomic bombs. He knew nothing, but under torture he "confessed" that the U.S. had 100 more nuclear weapons and planned to destroy Tokyo "in the next few days." The war minister informed the cabinet of this grim news ? but still adamantly opposed surrender. In the aftermath of the atomic bombing, the emperor and peace faction finally insisted on surrender and were able to prevail.

It feels unseemly to defend the vaporizing of two cities, events that are regarded in some quarters as among the most monstrous acts of the 20th century. But we owe it to history to appreciate that the greatest tragedy of Hiroshima was not that so many people were incinerated in an instant, but that in a complex and brutal world, the alternatives were worse.




pinky


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Phred]
    #1789068 - 08/07/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I generally appreciate Kristof's work, but this is pure speculation.

We will NEVER know what would have happened in the case of a test demonstration because that's not what happened. I am not arguing that the Japanese would certainly have surrendered in that case. I'm simply saying they should have been given the chance, that's all. If they had squandered that chance, I would have a clear conscience about the course of action the US finally took.

The question remains, which this article also fails to address: why weren't the Japanese given that chance? It wouldn't have cost thousands of American lives, as has been suggested. Eisenhower and MacArthur were AGAINST Truman's decision. Why were they, the two most respected military strategists in the United States at the time, not listened to?

Nice try, Pinky, but no dice. The original decision was a crime against humanity.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789121 - 08/07/03 05:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I generally appreciate Kristof's work, but this is pure speculation.




As is your whole argument. It's easy to play the woulda shoulda game. It was tragic and knowing what we know now things could of been different. To say that they had other choices is pure speculation.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1789199 - 08/07/03 06:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

there is only one way to properly view the dropping of any nuclear weapons.
ITS FUCKING WRONG
WAR IS WROONG
KILLING IS WRONG

how the fuck does the human race even expect to survive the next 10 years with these weapons hanging around?
i dont know about you guys but im gonna go build myself a falloout shelter up in northern canada.


--------------------
PEACE

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"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1789256 - 08/07/03 06:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
All i can say is that the American people, myself included, would NEVER indorse ANY pre-emptive attack with nukes.




Your not serious are you?!......bush already said he'd lauch a pre-emptive nuclear strike if he felt it nescessary.


--------------------
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Lest we forget. "


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1789275 - 08/07/03 06:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

EchoVortex said:
What you don't understand is that processing something like that is more than just a matter of taking pictures and flying them back to Tokyo. Understanding something like an A-bomb takes a complete paradigm shift in how one views the world...



Ridiculous! All one or a group has to do is realize that the other side has the means of instantly killing hundreds of thousands. It isn't brain surgery, it's basic survival - ANIMALS DO IT ALL THE TIME. No paradigm shift is required to save your ass, just avoidance of behaviour that will lead to your destruction.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789292 - 08/07/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Newsflash. Animals don't build cities, or create atomic weapons, or wage global wars which kill millions of their own species.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1789298 - 08/07/03 06:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Irrelevent. Go north to Alaska and watch the brown bears pulling salmon out of the water. Take an RPG and blow the fuck out of the biggest brown bear you see. Guess what will happen to the other brown bears...

It's basic survival.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789316 - 08/07/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Now take a gun and kill both of those bears and see if another one a few miles away understands.... :tongue:


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Lest we forget. "


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1789320 - 08/07/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bush already said he'd lauch a pre-emptive nuclear strike if he felt it nescessary




and? As politicians do, they say many things and do another. Americans don't generally like nuclear war.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789329 - 08/07/03 06:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Watch a rabbit freeze as it sees the headlights of an approaching car, paralyzed by fear of something completely alien to it. This means nothing anyway because people are not rabbits or brown bears. Animals can't perform first aid or surgery on each other, you think everyone who survived Hiroshima just ran away blindly in fear?



--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1789335 - 08/07/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

It should be noted that because of the human capacity to reason, people should be able to more easily recognize danger from something like bombs than these hypothetical bears. Also, I AM NOT advocating the destruction of a single brown bear, nor the dropping of atomic bombs, I am merely pointing out that it doesn't require the occurrence of a paradigm shift to realize the danger in a situation.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789378 - 08/07/03 06:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Its ok...brown bear discrimination is common...


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Lest we forget. "


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789398 - 08/07/03 06:57 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I would like to add the following observations so that others might understand my position. I think it could be argued that the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan was STRATEGICALLY justified. However, I can find no MORAL justification for the taking of innocent human life.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1789403 - 08/07/03 06:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)


Whitey's always keepin 'em down.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789407 - 08/07/03 07:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Bears also tend not to have complex bureaucracies.


--------------------
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1789410 - 08/07/03 07:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
I would like to add the following observations so that others might understand my position. I think it could be argued that the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan was STRATEGICALLY justified. However, I can find no MORAL justification for the taking of innocent human life.




I agree with that statement completely. Of course in war, especially war with the technology of the time, civilian casualties will always be high. The current war in Iraq demonstrates the difference between the technology of the WW2 era and this one. Had we invaded Iraq 60 years ago, the civilian casualties would have been multiplied exponentially.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1789467 - 08/07/03 07:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

shakta said: Nope. I completely agree. I think the bombings in Japan were warranted though

-jesus fucking christ man, you need to travel or experience death first-hand. killing mass (or any for that matter) amounts of civilians is NEVER warranted.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1789480 - 08/07/03 07:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

how the fuck does the human race even expect to survive the next 10 years with these weapons hanging around?



The same way we spent the last 60. Doing just fine.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1789538 - 08/07/03 07:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

atomikfunksoldier said:
shakta said: Nope. I completely agree. I think the bombings in Japan were warranted though

-jesus fucking christ man, you need to travel or experience death first-hand. killing mass (or any for that matter) amounts of civilians is NEVER warranted.




You know I understand your position on that, and I agree with you for the most part. I think in this instance it was justified though. As I said it saved lives. Would it have been better for 10,000,000 to die while the islands were being overtaken? I don't think so. We can argue about other scenarios all day long. It ended the war, and saved lives. Could other things have been done to end it? Possibly, but we will never know.

I want to clarify something here. I think you have a misunderstanding about me. I don't like seeing people killed. I hate war. Sometimes war is necessary though for the greater good. In war, innocents die. I would love it if we could all live in peace forever with no blood on our hands. Unfortunately this is just not realistic, at least not at this point in our history.

Here is a question for you. Would you say that killing a certain number of people to save a much higher number of people is justified? Forget about where they are from. Assume they are all of the same nationality. Would you sacrifice 5,000 to save 100,000. I am just using these numbers as an example.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1789680 - 08/07/03 08:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how the fuck does the human race even expect to survive the next 10 years with these weapons hanging around?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The same way we spent the last 60. Doing just fine.




i dont think so, were moving closer and closer to the brink of our own extinction. cant anyone see this?

technology is developing too quickly for the necissary checks and balances to keep things safe.
if you build on an unstable structure your building will colapse.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1789696 - 08/07/03 08:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The major problem I see are terrorists getting nukes. If this happens and they use them, I can see major carnage happening. I just hope it never happens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1789703 - 08/07/03 08:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

There's an easy solution to that, you know, don't you?

Get rid of em. All of em. Ours, theirs, the little ones, the big ones, the ones on ships and in silos and in subs and in briefcases. All of them. Make them go away, and make it against global law to ever build or otherwise posess a nuclear weapon again.

Simple, no?


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1789744 - 08/07/03 08:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The major problem I see are terrorists getting nukes. If this happens and they use them, I can see major carnage happening




But i bet the libbies would still blame it on the US...


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1789746 - 08/07/03 08:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

While that would be nice (not the global law part), do you really see it happening?

Not me. Not in this lifetime.

It's good to dream though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1789873 - 08/07/03 09:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

All i can say is that the American people, myself included, would NEVER indorse ANY pre-emptive attack with nukes.

That may not be enough when it seems you aren't even given a choice beforehand, not even knowledge of, a strike using any weapon in your military's arsenal.

If you government wished to use atomic weapons against another country, what makes you think they would ask you, the people, first?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: trendal]
    #1789914 - 08/07/03 09:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

ok ok ok shakta, i understand your p.o.v.

but, you say that it saved lives, correct?

but....approximatly 200,000 people died as a result of the bombings....so, when were 200,000 people in danger of dying in 1945?


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1789929 - 08/07/03 09:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
do you really see it happening?

Not me. Not in this lifetime.

It's good to dream though. 


I wouldn't be so sure.  The guy in charge of the air war during the original Gulf War (General Chuck Horner) was promoted after the war and put in charge of the nation's nuclear missiles.  After he retired, he became one of the leading spokemen against nuclear weapons. 

Get a few more people like that to speak up, and I think it will happen!  :smile2: 


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1789936 - 08/07/03 09:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GernBlanston said:
There's an easy solution to that, you know, don't you?

Get rid of em. All of em. Ours, theirs, the little ones, the big ones, the ones on ships and in silos and in subs and in briefcases. All of them. Make them go away, and make it against global law to ever build or otherwise posess a nuclear weapon again.

Simple, no?




I think it would take more than that. I think we would have to mine all the fissionable material out of the earth's crust and shoot it all into space.


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1789947 - 08/07/03 09:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
The major problem I see are terrorists getting nukes. If this happens and they use them, I can see major carnage happening. I just hope it never happens.




But america has the sense..or 'morality' to use them and manufacture them, and research how to make smalller more efficient ones?

...many would say the americans are terrorists....especially middle eastern countries. They might not be 'right' in your opinion, but what does opinion matter when people 'know' they are right...


--------------------
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1789950 - 08/07/03 09:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

atomikfunksoldier said:
ok ok ok shakta, i understand your p.o.v.

but, you say that it saved lives, correct?

but....approximatly 200,000 people died as a result of the bombings....so, when were 200,000 people in danger of dying in 1945?




WE FIRE BOMBED JAP CITIES WITH NAPALM KILLING HUNDREADS OF THOUSANDS BEFORE WE DROPPED THE A-BOMBS. We would have done the same before 1945 to soften up for the invasion. MILLIONS WOULD HAVE DIED IN AN INVASION. Why cant you understand this.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1789952 - 08/07/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:

Whitey's always keepin 'em down. 




I bet the other seals won't get eaten now.  They've seen what the bear can do....its natural instinct. :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1789960 - 08/07/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
do you really see it happening?

Not me. Not in this lifetime.

It's good to dream though.




...,but its better to be blind eh? (in canadian accent)


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1789969 - 08/07/03 10:04 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WE FIRE BOMBED JAP CITIES WITH NAPALM KILLING HUNDREADS OF THOUSANDS BEFORE WE DROPPED THE A-BOMBS. We would have done the same before 1945 to soften up for the invasion. MILLIONS WOULD HAVE DIED IN AN INVASION. Why cant you understand this.




so we killed 200000 people to keep us from killing millions more. sounds like the us is the crazy onet that is the kill happy machine to me.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


Edited by 1stimer (08/07/03 10:05 PM)


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1789974 - 08/07/03 10:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Canadas secret weapon..

The bear will fear



--------------------

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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1789984 - 08/07/03 10:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Stop posting stupid remarks. The japs would have killed invading americans and vice versa. America saved many lives by dropping the bombs.


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OfflineCornholio
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1790001 - 08/07/03 10:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
MILLIONS WOULD HAVE DIED IN AN INVASION.  Why cant you understand this. 


An argument was made to drop the first atomic bomb into Tokyo Bay in the late evening where millions could have witnessed the explosion, without as many casualties.  If this failed to force a surrender, then 2nd atomic bomb would have been dropped on a city.  But the possibility of destroying no cities was overruled by the decision to destroy two cities.  :devil: 


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1790024 - 08/07/03 10:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

why didnt we drop small nukes on iraq or in vietnam?


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

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Offlined33p
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Cornholio]
    #1790030 - 08/07/03 10:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Did they srop both bombs at the same time no. They gave them ample time in which to respond. They still did not surrender. A viewing would have been unlikely to cause them to surrender. Read what was posted before on this subject.

And from the kind of distance they would have had to drop the bomb so radiation wouldnt hit the mainland is a fair distance. They would hear a loud report and maybe would have seen a water spout. Nothing as effective as destroying a whole city.

Maybe we should have sent them tapes :/


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1790031 - 08/07/03 10:14 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Canadas secret weapon..

The bear will fear

 




:shocked:...thats classified!!! :mad:
Dem ground squirles are nasty lil buggers...they'll sneak right into yer tent , if your not careful...and eat anything they can...
My dog loves em!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1790039 - 08/07/03 10:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

1stimer said:
why didnt we drop small nukes on iraq or in vietnam?




They're still workin on em...i think...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1790041 - 08/07/03 10:16 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

we did they are called daisy cutters and boy did they work scared those little vcs shitless. And btw if you dont know daisy cutters are not nuclear but are large enough to seem simmilar.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: 1stimer]
    #1790067 - 08/07/03 10:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
- Unknown Lieutenant during the Vietnam War

This seems to be a favoured form of logic with US forces.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1790072 - 08/07/03 10:22 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Quote:

Edame said:

Whitey's always keepin 'em down. 




I bet the other seals won't get eaten now.  They've seen what the bear can do....its natural instinct. :smirk: 



The point that seems to elude some on this board is that if an animal is AWARE of danger it will avoid it.  Of course if you think that  the Japanese people are intellectually inferior to the average wild animal and hence lack the capacity to recognize danger and avoid it, the opposing point would make sense - it would also make you a racist (However, I do not believe that this is the case). 


--------------------
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-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1790108 - 08/07/03 10:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe it would, but I don't see anyone saying or implying anything remotely like that.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1790109 - 08/07/03 10:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"America sucks donkey balls, i eat poo, and i love to harrass little boys and blah blah blah"
-some unknown libbie


--------------------
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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1790112 - 08/07/03 10:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
"We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
- Unknown Lieutenant during the Vietnam War

This seems to be a favoured form of logic with US forces.




"Your either with us or against us..."

-george bush jr


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1790124 - 08/07/03 10:36 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The difference being that you can type the quote I used into google and see thousands of websites all making reference to it.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Edame]
    #1790130 - 08/07/03 10:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Whos to say you cant with with mine? lol

and i wouldnt be suprised that even if that quote is true it would have been taken out of context.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1790194 - 08/07/03 10:52 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I think that it's doublespeak anyway, to me it makes about as much sense as a Doctor saying "We had to kill the patients to save the patients".


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1790250 - 08/07/03 11:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

GernBlanston said:
There's an easy solution to that, you know, don't you?

Get rid of em. All of em. Ours, theirs, the little ones, the big ones, the ones on ships and in silos and in subs and in briefcases. All of them. Make them go away, and make it against global law to ever build or otherwise posess a nuclear weapon again.

Simple, no?




I think it would take more than that. I think we would have to mine all the fissionable material out of the earth's crust and shoot it all into space.




Well, I was being a bit purposefully simplistic there...

But that said, I think you may underestimate the complexity of converting raw materials into usable fissionable material. For example, N. Korea has had nuclear reactors in operation for over 30 years now - and with that, ample access to raw nuclear reactive material. In all that time, they have only been able to harvest enough usable material for 6 weapons (this is a current guesstimate - I've heard as few as 3 and as many as 6).

I think that if we had people who meant it, it would actually be extremely easy to rid the planet of all of them. Of course, therein lies the problem, eh?


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1790393 - 08/07/03 11:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

D33p: you arent very intelligent are you? until you prove that your brain is functional enough to understand simple concepts and questions, then I will not reply to your posts. not that you care....but you have been forwarned.

The US could have easily won the war without the use of nuclear bombs, the war may have gone on longer, but a few thousand lives of american and japanese soldiers are definitly worth hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1790562 - 08/08/03 12:39 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I've heard a few times that the intelligence was saying that the Japanese were only days away from surrender.

I've also heard, and speculated myself, that the U.S. had wanted to use the bomb on Hitler originally, but the war in Europe ended before the bomb could be finished. They still needed to have an "operation test" so they nuked Japan.

Nothing for certain though, just some thoughts.

Personally...I probably wouldn't be here right now if they hadn't dropped the bomb. My grandfather was 3 days from shipping to the Pacific as a fighter pilot. He said the odds were not good that he would have come back. Kinda gives me shivers.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1791098 - 08/08/03 06:13 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I find it quite interesting that the only time the Connies rush to the defense of a Democratic president is when he annhilates over 200,000 civilian men, women, and children. :confused:

Women and children . . . I wonder how long it will take for that to seep through your thick, protruding foreheads.

Below is a link to a site that has a good collection of documents relating to the events leading up to the decision to drop.  Recommended only for those who still know how to think.

Atom Bomb: Decision

 


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1791106 - 08/08/03 06:26 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Here is a reprint of one of the documents in the site I linked. This is a memorandum by Ralph A. Bard, Undersecretary of the Navy, to Secretary of War Stimson, dated June 27, 1945.

MEMORANDUM ON THE USE OF S-1 BOMB:

Ever since I have been in touch with this program I have had a feeling that before the bomb is actually used against Japan that Japan should have some preliminary warning for say two or three days in advance of use. The position of the United States as a great humanitarian nation and the fair play attitude of our people generally is responsible in the main for this feeling.

During recent weeks I have also had the feeling very definitely that the Japanese government may be searching for some opportunity which they could use as a medium of surrender. Following the three-power conference emissaries from this country could contact representatives from Japan somewhere on the China Coast and make representations with regard to Russia's position and at the same time give them some information regarding the proposed use of atomic power, together with whatever assurances the President might care to make with regard to the Emperor of Japan and the treatment of the Japanese nation following unconditional surrender. It seems quite possible to me that this presents the opportunity which the Japanese are looking for.

I don't see that we have anything in particular to lose in following such a program. The stakes are so tremendous that it is my opinion very real consideration should be given to some plan of this kind. I do not believe under present circumstances existing that there is anyone in this country whose evaluation of the chances of the success of such a program is worth a great deal. The only way to find out is to try it out.

[signature]
RALPH A. BARD

27 June 1945
***********************

There were plenty of people in the government who shared this feeling, and Truman was no doubt appraised of this view. Many of them understood that nothing would have been lost at all by one trial demonstration combined with diplomatic overtures. It's not as if the idea had never crossed anybody's mind. Truman had a choice, and he made the criminal choice.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1791838 - 08/08/03 01:01 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I believe the reason why there was no demonstration before the attack on Hiroshima is that they hadn't tested any uranium bomb before, and they only had material for one such bomb so they didn't want to "waste" it on a test.

The bomb dropped on Nagasaki was a plutonium bomb, the same kind as the one tested in New Mexico. It needed testing since it had a much more complicated detonation mechanism (implosion device). It's easier to produce concentrated plutonium than uranium-235, so the plutonium bomb was the prioritized one.

Of course the bombings were acts of terrorism, but they were not the first or worst such acts by the allies. The British bombing of Dresden has already been mentioned, and we know the Red Army used terrorism against both the enemy's and their own civilians.


Edited by Rhizoid (08/08/03 01:04 PM)


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1794532 - 08/09/03 04:20 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If these weapons continue to exist, and are not destroyed before they can be detonated, we will all be kissing our asses goodbye.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1794541 - 08/09/03 04:24 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
If these weapons continue to exist, and are not destroyed before they can be detonated, we will all be kissing our asses goodbye.



Well if your ass smelled as bad as mine, you wouldn't be very thrilled with that prospect either.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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