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Anonymous

thinking about the war...
    #1445446 - 04/10/03 02:33 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

it's a long one:

i was thinking about the war today. and about why it's going on and what's happening here and trying to see the big picture.

the anti-war argument is something along the lines of:

it is a pre-emptive strike, and there's something just wrong about throwing the first punch.
this war is bad for the economy.
the war makes us more susceptable to terrorism
it's pissing the world off at america
people are going to die...
it's rich white men profiting from this.
this war serves to secure oil and increase US dominance in the middle east.

now... of the arguments, there are two different kinds. one kind is a material argument against going to war. the other is more an accusation... a suspected motivation for an alleged crime.

maybe it was a bad call to go to war because it's hurting our economy and our relations with allies. maybe it was a bad idea because it's going to increase anti-american sentiment.

in the anti-war camp, we often see 'no war for oil', and 'no war for empire'... this must imply that the war is 'injust' and a 'crime'.

when the war is judged on grounds of right vs. wrong, we have to ask, "what is it that is morally wrong about this?"

the arguments are made, and we either agree that this war is about oil and power, or we don't. but the question of, it is Wrong? has not been answered. are we profiting from violence against the people of another nation? are the iraqi people suffering for our gain?

on tv today, i saw a statue of saddam hussien being toppled. surrounding it was a huge crowd of cheering iraqis. i have a feeling that the people of iraq must be excited about the end of the 30-year reign of dictator saddam hussein. they must be excited about the future, about the end of sanctions, and a new iraq. i think the iraqi people really are being liberated here. some may be skeptical of this, and yes, only time will tell. whether this whole thing was Right or Wrong will not be answered until we see the state of iraq years from now.

as of april tenth, 1174 is the high count for iraqi civilian deaths since this has began. this many. iraq is a country of 24 million people. at 1174 deaths, that means one out of every 20,444 iraqi people has died from this. so far, we've killed .005% of their civilian population. if saddam's been keeping up with most of his normal activities in spite of the war, his regime itself has probably killed more. in a few weeks, the 30 year reign of saddam hussein will be over. iraq will be a new kind of nation in the world. the average iraqi is probably celebrating.

whether you agree with the approach or not, america's foriegn policy mainly has always been about ensuring what's best for america, not about intervening on moral grounds. we haven't stood in the way of tyrants in the past because really, as this war proves, it's quite hard to sell a war.

this time around, US interest favors the removal of saddam. we've got people in washington who want it to happen. this is very fortunate for the people of iraq. what america's leadership is thinking, and what the motives maybe be, are not concerns to the iraqi people. they do not care if the US is doing this to get oil or power.

they do not care if the case for chemical weapons is flimsy or that saddam had nothing to do with 9-11, but they're sure glad foxnews is telling the average american otherwise.

it comes down to the iraqi people... is this war good for them? or is it not? do they support it? do they not support it? will they benefit? will this hurt them?

the answers are the answers to the question, "is this right or wrong?"

if the iraq people will suffer from this, if they want saddam, then this is wrong.

if not though, this war cannot be said to be morally wrong, at least not by any of the arguments currently being presented.

going to war may be opposed as unwise or unskillful, but not wrong.


Reasons Against Going to War:
-increased threat of terrorism.
-cost.
-international opinion.

Reasons for War:
-freeing the iraqis.
-ridding the region of an aggressive dictator

can this be right? america is sticking is just sticking it's neck out for the iraqi people and the safety of iraq's neighbors, though it's dangerous and detrimental to america? of course it's not...

"oil" and "power" don't belong in the "reasons against the war" list... they belong on the ones for it. some people in america stand to gain from this. surprise. so do the iraqis. the only people that don't are the ba'ath party and the soldiers.

i can't predict the future. will the people of iraq benefit from this? if yes, then this war is just. will america benefit from this? if yes, then this war is skillful.

as long as i think that the iraqis themselves stand to benefit from this, and i really believe they do, i cannot attack the war on grounds of ethics.

i'm not so sure about the war benefiting america though. i'm not so sure if it was a good choice.

one thing i do know is that i don't like all of the "us vs. them", "american vs. unamerican", patriot-act shit going on. there is definitely some very unamerican shit going on right now in america in connection with the war, and it to me it's of greater concern than the conflict itself.

time will tell whether this war was smart or foolish, and right or wrong.





Edited by mushmaster (04/10/03 01:49 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1445540 - 04/10/03 03:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Damn! Excellent post, mushmaster. I can tell a lot of thought went into it.

I doff my chapeau to you in homage.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1445743 - 04/10/03 06:39 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

if you are struggling to justify the war in your own mind, then you have a lot of company.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1446118 - 04/10/03 11:59 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Well done.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1446314 - 04/10/03 01:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

if the iraq people will suffer from this, if they want saddam, then this is wrong.

if not though, this war cannot be said to be morally wrong, at least not by any of the arguments currently being presented.   




Many would argue the "morality" of interfearing in another countries government and culture.  You have ousted saddam, but the country is headless without the iron grip of the tyrant saddam.  Only US occupation will "ensure" the "liberation" of these people from the other factions present in the country from taking tyranical control.  Iraq will become a base camp for future "terror operations" into syria and iran... its all part of americas scheme. :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: thinking about the war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446368 - 04/10/03 01:41 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Very excellent post.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1446544 - 04/10/03 02:30 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Look at Hanibal lecter, say the first guy he had eaten was a terrible father who had beaten his children. Then Hanibal comes along and munches him thus freeing the poor children. Hurrah! But would the end justify the means? Would it help if Hanibal professed to have always had the childrens welfare at heart, even though he just wanted to eat their father?
So people stand idly by and let Hanibal go his merry way. Some may even congratulate him. His next few victims howver are all complete innocents. Does the end justify the means?

We dont have to wait for the results of an action to judge whether it is right or wrong.

Id like to point out im in now way comparing the Bush govt to Hanibal Lecter.

I kinda like Hanibal  :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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! [Re: ]
    #1446546 - 04/10/03 02:31 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I'd just like to throw in how unlikely it is this is about Iraqi liberation. First of all, the proposed post-war government consists of Ray Garner at the head, an American, along with 22 ministries, all headed by Americans. Is this really giving the gov't to the people or even coming close to giving the Iraqis what they want? Also, what Bush doesn't want you to know is that 60% of the population in Iraq is made up of Shia Muslims who are culturally and ethnically tied to Iran! Who do you think is going to seize power in this situation, and who do you think they'll strengthen ties with? An Iraqi-Iranian alliance is a nightmare in Bush's eyes, and even if the Iraqis get to run the government, don't expect anything more than a US-installed Dictator, something we're verrrry familiar with doing in our past.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: ! [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1446640 - 04/10/03 02:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

thats ok, you guys have the iraqis freedom at heart! :wink:  And thier economy in your pocket. :tongue:

Isn't this a win, win scenario?  They think they're free, and it serves american interests...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1446666 - 04/10/03 02:57 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

if not though, this war cannot be said to be morally wrong

Unless your the poor bastard getting blown up for doing nothing other than sit in your house.

If you need a moral crusade why not go for feeding Africa? The amount Bush has pissed away securing Iraqs oil fields could have fed millions.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1446751 - 04/10/03 03:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Destroying bad people is much more rewarding than helping those who need it...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineflow
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1446883 - 04/10/03 04:00 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you need a moral crusade why not go for feeding Africa?



well, why aren't you volunteering in africa right now? there are hundreds of groups you could join to do so. The reason we are doing this in iraq is because the country of iraq is valuable, freeing it will benefit us as well as them, and the only reason you seem to be able to come up with to be against it is "Bush is evil."
even if he is, isn't the result going to be better for the people of iraq? They seem to think so.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: flow]
    #1446892 - 04/10/03 04:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

isn't the result going to be better for the people of iraq? They seem to think so.




Not nescessarily. And despite what they think now, they will be sorely dissapointed. *nothing is free, especially freedom*


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineflow
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Re: ! [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1446903 - 04/10/03 04:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

First of all, the proposed post-war government consists of Ray Garner at the head, an American, along with 22 ministries, all headed by Americans.



what the hell are we supposed to do? hold elections tommorow? do you think that it is easy to set up a new government in a country that's been ruled by dictators for the past 40 years?
Quote:

Also, what Bush doesn't want you to know is that 60% of the population in Iraq is made up of Shia Muslims who are culturally and ethnically tied to Iran!



and what you seem to forget is a little thing called the Iran-Iraq war. they may be culturally and ethnically similar, but it ends there.
Quote:

and even if the Iraqis get to run the government, don't expect anything more than a US-installed Dictator,



you really think that with the entire world focused on iraq, we're just going to install someone? give me a break. The plan for post-war iraq is to hold elections within three years from now. are we just going to rig the elections? The people of iraq are among the best educated in all the middle east, they're not going to be made to be the pawns of the US, and our gov't knows this.


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Offlineflow
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1446920 - 04/10/03 04:11 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

thanks for your post, im glad to see someone else can get past Bush's motives (however dishonest they may be) and see that no matter what happens, removing saddam is greatly beneficial to the iraqi people. A lot of anti-war people seem to think that just because you don't like bush, anything he does is wrong.
Quote:

time will tell whether this war was smart or foolish, and right or wrong.




it was a smart idea, but it was ruined by a diplomatically retarded president.
and it probably was the right thing to do, but we could've gone about it much differently.


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Offlineflow
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1446930 - 04/10/03 04:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And despite what they think now, they will be sorely dissapointed.



i don't think it will be that easy to dissapoint the people who have had to live in fear their whole lives. They are not spoiled americans whose biggest problem is that they can't smoke weed.


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Anonymous

Re: thinking about the war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447126 - 04/10/03 05:08 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

what i'm trying to say here is that ok, so america's doing this to increase its sphere of power. ok, oil certainly has something to do with this. yes, the war is being sold to the american public by shameless propaganda. yes, perhaps the case for WMDs is a flimsy one.

but is this a crime against the people of Iraq? is this an unjust war? are we unjustly attacking a people and gaining from their loss? i do believe that the people of iraq stand to benefit enormously from this action. i don't think they're being victimized to further the US agenda. the murderous ba'ath party is being attacked here, not the iraqi people. boo hoo.

i cannot sympathize with those who hail this war as "unjust" and "a crime". quite simply, this whole thing is good for the people of iraq.

it's whether it's good for the US that i question. i'm hoping that they've got that covered. we'll see...

seriously folks, so ok... the US is going to have some kind of place in the formation of a new iraqi government. what's so bad about that? there will be an arab state in the middle east that for once isn't run by a dictator, or monarch, or fundamentalist cleric...

iraq is going to be one of the most closely watched places on earth when this is over. there's no way that after all of this worldwide protest, and promises of iraqi freedom and democracy, that the US is going to be able to do wrong over there. people just won't allow it.

it's only way we can come out on top of this and say, "you see skeptics, this was right all along." it's the only way that this will not drastically increase anti-american sentiment, not only in the arab world, but all over. it's got to be a part of america's game plan for this. nothing else makes sense.

america must do right in iraq after this is over. i'm convinced it has no other choice. iraq becomes a friend of the US... like israel, south korea, and japan have been. is this a bad thing?

victory will not be had until saddam is gone, and a new government a hell of alot better them him is in place. it is only then that we can say this war was a success. i hope that day comes soon.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: flow]
    #1447143 - 04/10/03 05:12 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

And despite what they think now, they will be sorely dissapointed.



i don't think it will be that easy to dissapoint the people who have had to live in fear their whole lives. They are not spoiled americans whose biggest problem is that they can't smoke weed.




That is a very good point! and ties in perfectly to how iraqi "freedom" will be whatever america tells them it is, because they have never been truly free and still aren't! They can have the patriot act 1 and 2, and everything else the bush administration wishes to implement and to them they would still be free as birds.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: thinking about the war... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1447232 - 04/10/03 05:38 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

i'm only against this war so far as i think that's it's bad for the US. i don't think that this is in our best interests. some people in washington who know more than i do think it is though... we'll see. i think it's a gamble. we'll soon see if it was a good one or not.

as far as protesting the war on behalf of the iraqi people... that's just absurd. they're the greatest benefactors of all from this.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: thinking about the war... [Re: ]
    #1448758 - 04/11/03 04:24 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

as far as protesting the war on behalf of the iraqi people... that's just absurd. they're the greatest benefactors of all from this.







Tell that to the hundreds of exiled Iraqi's I saw at both the peace marches in London.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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