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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
American Justice
    #1355630 - 03/06/03 08:45 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

50 years' jail for video thefts upheld
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C908375%2C00.html

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Thursday March 6, 2003
The Guardian

The United States supreme court has ruled that a 50-year sentence being served by a man who shoplifted videos as gifts for his children is not a "cruel and unusual" punishment.
The ruling was described as "barbarous" by campaigners against California's "three strikes law", which imposes mandatory penalties for third-time offenders.

By a majority of five to four, the supreme court decided that Leandro Andrade should continue to serve the 50 years imposed in 1995 for shoplifting videos worth ?95 on two separate occasions.

Because he had committed past similar shoplifting offences, he was jailed in 1995 under the state's three-strikes law, which mandates a minimum 25-year sentence for each new offence, making a total of 50 years.

Andrade, who had a drug habit, had no record of violence and had stolen videos including Cinderella and Free Willy for his children.

"This is simply barbarous," said Geri Silva, executive director of Families to Amend California's Three Strikes (Facts), an LA-based organisation campaigning to exclude non-violent offenders from the effects of the law. "It shows the absolute inhumanity of the highest court of the land. If that is not a cruel and unusual punishment, I don't know what is."

The ruling came in response to a decision last year by the regional circuit appeal court in San Francisco that the 50-year sentence for Andrade and a 25-year term for Gary Ewing, who stole three golf clubs, were cruel and unusual punishments and therefore unconstitutional. California's attorney general, Bill Lockyer, appealed against the decision which brought it to the supreme court last year.

The court's decision upholding the three-strikes law was announced yesterday.

The California governor, Gray Davis, welcomed the decision. "This is good for California," said Mr Davis, one of whose main political donors is the group that represents California's prison officers. He said that the law helped to keep down crime rates.

Professor Erwin Chemerinsky, who represented Andrade, expressed surprise at the decision. He said that had Andrade committed rape, not shoplifting, he would have been given eight years rather than 50 because it would have been his first such offence.

The next likely development will be an attempt to amend the law during elections in 2004. Pressure groups, including Facts, are now collecting signatures to put a proposition to the electorate that would limit the three-strike law to violent offenders. At present, half of those serving three strikes sentences are jailed for non-violent offences.

"Opinion polls show that people do not want the law to be used for non-violent offenders," said Ms Silva of Facts yesterday, adding that she was hopeful of collecting enough signatures to put the issue on the 2004 ballot.

Three strikes was introduced after the abduction and murder of 12-year-old Polly Klaas in 1993 by a repeat offender out on parole. The girl's grandfather, Joe Klaas, has joined the Facts campaign saying the law should not be used against minor, non-violent offences.



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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 30 days
Re: American Justice [Re: pattern]
    #1356181 - 03/07/03 05:38 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Thank god i dont live in america.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: American Justice [Re: pattern]
    #1356234 - 03/07/03 06:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I wil begin by referring you to my earlier thread. Unfortunately, public opinion in the US overwhelmingly favours the far right, from life sentances for stealing packs of gum to fighting and winning wars of plunder. vote.com did a poll on the CA 3-strikes law and 93% support the law. Nor is this as simple as blame-the-media either, since the vote.com respondents had obviously logged onto the internet too. The voters elect senators; as such they can thwart right-wing judicial nominations. But judging by the results of the 2002 election, they have no intention of doing so.

The law, the criminals, and the voters in the US all seem to agree that property is more valuable than life and/or liberty. Criminals are often willing to kill to seize property. Legal systems in CA and elsewhere will often allow DUI killers to avoid prison altogether while stealing a pack of cigarettes draws a life sentance. That implies that human life is cheap, while commodities such as cigarettes are scarce and more valuable. The voters favour right-wing economics that may create crime in the first place; and then favour the legal process above.

Unfortunately, i cannot make the claim that my own opposing opinion is better informed or more valid than that of the electoral majority. But it is easy for me to understand how "terrorists" dont consider their civilian victims as being innocent.


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (03/07/03 07:14 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: American Justice [Re: pattern]
    #1356297 - 03/07/03 06:32 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck Gray Davis! That's all I have to say.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: American Justice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1356506 - 03/07/03 07:48 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Unfortunately, public opinion in the US overwhelmingly favours the far right

did you realize how ludicrous that was when you typed it? i suppose you're not from the U.S., so maybe you didn't know... but the people of the US certainly do not overwhelmingly favor the far right

from life sentances for stealing packs of gum to fighting and winning wars of plunder

that sort of thing is very, very rare. it's a freak decision for a judge to give someone a life sentence for stealing a pack of gum, and i don't think that when it does happen, the people support it. i think if a poll of the people were taken, people would not support a 50 year sentence for stealing video tapes, nor a life sentence for stealing gum.

unfortunately, it is the nature of our media to be sensationalistic. crime is over-reported, and people think there's a big problem, and so... there's not a politician in the land that doesn't want to look "tough on crime". there are probably tough judges from all over the political spectrum.

with the war.... people had no idea when they elected bush that he was gonna get us into this mess. people never voted for this war. he and his cronies decided that now is a good time to expand america's power by seizing some middle eastern oil. the media, and consequently the people, have gone along for the ride.

Nor is this as simple as blame-the-media either, since the vote.com respondents had obviously logged onto the internet too.

i don't follow you here. actually... i totally blame the media for the things you're talking about.

The voters elect senators; as such they can thwart right-wing judicial nominations. But judging by the results of the 2002 election, they have no intention of doing so.

the republicans now have a majority in congress. we're at war right now (or at least, the public has been convinced we are)... people want republicans when we're under attack. the media is telling us that we're overrun with crime and under dire threat of terrorist attack... of course people are gonna vote republican.

The law, the criminals, and the voters in the US all seem to agree that property is more valuable than life and/or liberty. Criminals are often willing to kill to seize property. Legal systems in CA and elsewhere will often allow DUI killers to avoid prison altogether while stealing a pack of cigarettes draws a life sentance. That implies that human life is cheap, while commodities such as cigarettes are scarce and more valuable.

the only ones here who think that property is more valuable than life are the said criminals who are out killing people.

usually, a DUI killer will be charged with vehicular manslaughter, and will serve time in jail. a person who steals a pack of cigarettes will be charged with petty theft, and will get a fine or probation at worst. the situations you describe are very extreme and are certainly not representive of our justice system. it is wrong to infer that it is the norm for our courts to slam someone for petty theft worse than they do for deadly drunk driving.

That implies that human life is cheap, while commodities such as cigarettes are scarce and more valuable.

it would if it were true, but the thing from which you are deducing that is a just a false generalization of america's justice system. any person who kills someone else, whether it be by intent or neglect, will in almost every case serve more time in jail than someone who stole something.

it's far more common, and far more absurd, for a person convicted of simply selling a "controlled" substance to a consenting adult buyer to serve more time in jail than a violent criminal.

The voters favour right-wing economics that may create crime in the first place; and then favour the legal process above.

again, generalizations. our economic system is neither far right nor socialistic. we have plenty of welfare programs.

you're saying that far-right economics creates crime... the only way it does so is by not giving free money to poor people... who then in turn steal things.
the system does not create crime nor rid us of it... it merely transforms it. is there much difference between whether a poor person steals from me at gunpoint... or the government does it and then gives the money to the poor person? one is called robbery, the other, welfare.

i suppose we could eliminate crime by taxing everyone more heavily and forming a "crime fund"... people who wanted to commit crimes could instead just take money from the crime fund instead. yes, i think that would work to eliminate crime.

But it is easy for me to understand how "terrorists" dont consider their civilian victims as being innocent.

yeah... what about if you were visiting the US and were killed in a terrorist attack? would that be different? you'd be innocent, right? you're not an american, so of course... all of those right-wing rich bastard americans who hold the value of life lower than that of property... no... all of them would deserve what was coming to them...

i think that individuals should be individually held accountable for their actions. if a terrorist group wants to assassinate a CEO whos decisions poison the environment or something... it's still wrong, but i can see how they could rationalize it as being justice. this blowing-up of crowds of civilians without discrimination though... is never, ever ok by any reasoning.




Edited by Anonymous (03/07/03 07:51 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: American Justice [Re: ]
    #1356675 - 03/07/03 07:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately, public opinion in the US overwhelmingly favours the far right

did you realize how ludicrous that was when you typed it? i suppose you're not from the U.S., so maybe you didn't know... but the people of the US certainly do not overwhelmingly favor the far right




Granted, vote.com prolly does not represent the entire population. OTOH, The Shroomery definitely doesnt. My guess is that the right-wing majority is not nearly so overwhelming as vote.com would have us believe; rather it is narrow but still decisive.

Quote:

that sort of thing is very, very rare. it's a freak decision for a judge to give someone a life sentence for stealing a pack of gum, and i don't think that when it does happen, the people support it. i think if a poll of the people were taken, people would not support a 50 year sentence for stealing video tapes, nor a life sentence for stealing gum.




I dont know about the specific crime of stealing a pack of gum. But there are already 7100 similar cases in CA; hardly a "freak decision", and mandatory under state law.

Quote:

with the war.... people had no idea when they elected bush that he was gonna get us into this mess. people never voted for this war. he and his cronies decided that now is a good time to expand america's power by seizing some middle eastern oil. the media, and consequently the people, have gone along for the ride.




Whether Shrub was really "elected" is questionable at best; i still believe the 2000 election was stolen. In either case, they had the opportunity to vote against the war last year. They could have nominated an anti-Shrub democratic ticket in the primaries to vote for in the November election. They did neither, and as such reafirmed Shrub's position.

Quote:


Nor is this as simple as blame-the-media either, since the vote.com respondents had obviously logged onto the internet too.

i don't follow you here. actually... i totally blame the media for the things you're talking about.




If you read my earlier thread, you would know exactly what it means. In a nutshell: by blaming it all on the media, you are necessarily making assumptions about what other ppl know and what they dont know; and where they get there information from. On what do you base those assumptions?? ("mushrooms" doesnt count). The vote.com crowd has the exact opposite views as me; and since they are online, their prolly not getting all their information from the TV either. Who knows: maybe all of them went to The Shroomery and decided to take that position based on what they read here??

Quote:

But it is easy for me to understand how "terrorists" dont consider their civilian victims as being innocent.

yeah... what about if you were visiting the US and were killed in a terrorist attack? would that be different? you'd be innocent, right? you're not an american, so of course... all of those right-wing rich bastard americans who hold the value of life lower than that of property... no... all of them would deserve what was coming to them...




Yes and no. I might consider myself innocent in my everyday life; but i havent done nearly as much as i could against right-wing trends in the US and elsewhere either. So in that sense i must share some of the blame too.





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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (03/07/03 08:03 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: American Justice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1356756 - 03/07/03 08:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My guess is that the right-wing majority is not nearly so overwhelming as vote.com would have us believe; rather it is narrow but still decisive.

is this why in the last 3 presidential elections, the democratic party carried the majority vote?

I dont know about the specific crime of stealing a pack of gum.

it is called petty theft or theft by unlawful taking or disposition. people are almost never sent to jail for it. the '3-strikes' laws are the reason that in some cases, a petty theft has put someone behind bars for a very long time. yes, it is sad that people support these mandatory minimums and 3 strikes laws. i do blame the media.

Whether Shrub was really "elected" is questionable at best; i still believe the 2000 election was stolen.

i detest the bush administration, but they won the election fair and square.

They could have nominated an anti-Shrub democratic ticket in the primaries to vote for in the November election. They did neither, and as such reafirmed Shrub's position.

what are you talking about? the elections of congressmen? the bush administration is pushing this war. as commander in chief, gwb has alot of control over our military. it matters little who is in congress. yes... sadly, much of our public does support the war... again... i blame the media (and the bush administration's spin doctors).

If you read my earlier thread, you would know exactly what it means. In a nutshell: by blaming it all on the media, you are necessarily making assumptions about what other ppl know and what they dont know; and where they get there information from.

i am assuming that most people get most of their information from the biased corporate media. i think it's not a bad assumption.

On what do you base those assumptions?? ("mushrooms" doesnt count).

this is the second time in a post where you've suggested that my ideas are apparently so unfounded that they could have only come to me while on a trip.... i assume that people get most of their information from the corporate media. if you have any other theories, i'd like to hear them. i think that if we actually pulled up the data on newspaper and magazine subscriptions, television ratings, and website traffic... we'd see that the stats support my assumption. or is it that i am wrong... and people really do have access to fair and objective journalism... and that FOXNEWS really isn't beating the war drum on their TV every night?

The vote.com crowd has the exact opposite views as me; and since they are online, their prolly not getting all their information from the TV either.

they have news on the internet now. it's the same kind as on TV.

Who knows: maybe all of them went to The Shroomery and decided to take that position based on what they read here??

well.. anything is possible.

but i havent done nearly as much as i could against right-wing trends in the US and elsewhere either. So in that sense i must share some of the blame too.

i certainly don't think i should be held responsible for anyone's actions but my own. if some terrorist blew me up in retaliation for the fucked up foriegn policies of the united states... i'd be pretty pissed off about it.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Re: American Justice [Re: ]
    #1356851 - 03/07/03 09:16 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

is this why in the last 3 presidential elections, the democratic party carried the majority vote?




If the democratic party carried the majority vote in 2000, then it means the election must have been stolen. If not, then the 537 votes awarded to Shrub in FL constitutes a "narrow but decisive majority". In reality, the nationwide popular vote count is only accurate to within 2.5 million votes, which means that Justice Stevens hit the nail on pretty much on the head:

Quote:

"Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law"

source: 2000 Election Chronology




I would strongly recommend reading the link above if you still think that Shrub was elected fair and square.

Quote:

what are you talking about? the elections of congressmen? the bush administration is pushing this war. as commander in chief, gwb has alot of control over our military. it matters little who is in congress. yes... sadly, much of our public does support the war... again... i blame the media (and the bush administration's spin doctors).




Only the congress can declare war. In this case, the congress has voted to cede that authority to the Shrub. But it was well within the power of the people to elect a congress that would not have done so.

Quote:

this is the second time in a post where you've suggested that my ideas are apparently so unfounded that they could have only come to me while on a trip.... i assume that people get most of their information from the corporate media. if you have any other theories, i'd like to hear them. i think that if we actually pulled up the data on newspaper and magazine subscriptions, television ratings, and website traffic... we'd see that the stats support my assumption. or is it that i am wrong... and people really do have access to fair and objective journalism... and that FOXNEWS really isn't beating the war drum on their TV every night?




I doubt that you could compare Nielsen ratings against bandwidth usage and get any useful results.

Everyone has access to the same information. If you dont own a computer, then internet access is available for free at your local library. Anybody can log on to the internet. And if i see something on the TV and recognize it as a lie, then i can only assume that everyone else watching the show is smart enough to reach the same conclusion. In other words, one cannot simply presume to be better informed than anyone else.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (03/07/03 09:19 PM)


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: American Justice [Re: pattern]
    #1356991 - 03/07/03 10:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Are the jails privately owned in California? Need I ask?

Does any one not believe that the profit motive extends even to these extremes? I'm not saying how much influence the private jails have over public policy. But can anyone deny that these corporations actually like to have these long, insane prison terms? That they even promote them someway?

What about the private weapons companies in USA? WHhat makes them money? (people's blood) Bob Dylan could see through their masks.

Anyways, that's really fucking sad man. I mean. really. That's like, way worse than the GULAG!!!!!!! For fuck all. Boy. I'm sure glad I don't live in the land of the free. I'm not brave enough.

Poor, poor souls.

Evil, evil bastards.



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: American Justice [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1357000 - 03/07/03 10:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Three strikes and your out. Good fucking grief.

News to the US supreme court...LIFE IS NOT A BASBALL GAME!!!

Oh pardon me. I guess they know that. Cuz in a baseball game, the struck out batter gets another round at bat. For Leandro Andrede, it's three strikes, game over.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,724
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: American Justice [Re: GazzBut]
    #1357137 - 03/08/03 01:24 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Thank god i dont live in america.



Yes.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,724
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: American Justice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1357140 - 03/08/03 01:25 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Whether Shrub was really "elected" is questionable at best



Simply repeating this lie doesn't make it so.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: American Justice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1357189 - 03/08/03 03:15 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If the democratic party carried the majority vote in 2000, then it means the election must have been stolen. If not, then the 537 votes awarded to Shrub in FL constitutes a "narrow but decisive majority". In reality, the nationwide popular vote count is only accurate to within 2.5 million votes, which means that Justice Stevens hit the nail on pretty much on the head:

could you explain this please?

Only the congress can declare war. In this case, the congress has voted to cede that authority to the Shrub. But it was well within the power of the people to elect a congress that would not have done so.

the president can send troops without a congressional declaration of war. he has always had this power. we haven't declared war since WWII (i'm not sure if we did in desert storm). we've been doing our share of military operations all over the world that congress hasn't decided on.

and do you really, truly believe that FOXNEWS reaches the same number of people as less biased and more accurate news? do you think that the corporate media has the same viewership as more reputable sources of news? hell...i would seriously bet that the corporate media is where 95% of americans get 95% of their news.

are you really trying to argue that the corporate media is not bigger than the 'un-biased' media? of course it is. and it reaches more people. and it is biased.

I doubt that you could compare Nielsen ratings against bandwidth usage and get any useful results.

no... i'd compare TV ratings for big corporate media vs. tv ratings for the non-mainstread media (oh wait... they're not even on TV)... or compare bandwidth from big corporate media outlets on the web to smaller independant ones on the web.

jesus man... you're trying to argue that the 'big media' isn't bigger than the non-mainstream one. it would be like saying that people have just as much exposure to disposable pop music as they do to good, artful, yet more 'underground' music. of course it's out there for those willing to find it... but the vast majority of people would rather have their news spoon fed to them.

Everyone has access to the same information. If you dont own a computer, then internet access is available for free at your local library. Anybody can log on to the internet. And if i see something on the TV and recognize it as a lie, then i can only assume that everyone else watching the show is smart enough to reach the same conclusion.

in assuming that everyone will do this, you overlook human nature. people are lazy... and they trust FOXNEWS. so they watch it. alot of people do.

In other words, one cannot simply presume to be better informed than anyone else.

i very much disagree.


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Anonymous

Re: American Justice [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1357218 - 03/08/03 03:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Three strikes and your out.  Good fucking grief.

News to the US supreme court...LIFE IS NOT A BASBALL GAME!!!

Oh pardon me.  I guess they know that.  Cuz in a baseball game, the struck out batter gets another round at bat.  For Leandro Andrede, it's three strikes,  game over. 




Where did this law come from?  Do I need to say it?

Herr Klinton the Slickmeister, that's who. :mad:

Read here for more on Herr Clinton's hypocrisy!

Oh beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majestiesAbove the fruited plain.
America! America!
God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea.

Oh beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassioned stress.
A thoroughfare of freedom beat
Across the wilderness.
America! America!
God mend thine ev'ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

Oh beautiful for heroes proved
in liberating strife
Who more than self their country loved,
and mercy more than life
America! America! May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness, And ev'ry gain divine

Oh beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years.
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears.
America! America! God shed his grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea.


:confused: :crazy: :frown: 


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: American Justice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #1357286 - 03/08/03 05:04 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If the democratic party carried the majority vote in 2000, then it means the election must have been stolen. If not, then the 537 votes awarded to Shrub in FL constitutes a "narrow but decisive majority". In reality, the nationwide popular vote count is only accurate to within 2.5 million votes, which means that Justice Stevens hit the nail on pretty much on the head:



Please read the U.S. Constitution, it is the charter of the federal government and explains how it's supposed to operate. (Hint: the U.S. is a constitutional republic, a FEDERATION of states, not a democracy) Also at issue are the Florida voting laws IN PLACE AT THE TIME OF THE ELECTION.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: American Justice [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1357289 - 03/08/03 05:05 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Are the jails privately owned in California?



NO.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: American Justice [Re: pattern]
    #1357392 - 03/08/03 06:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not once in that article does it say what Andrade's previous crimes were.


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