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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788806 - 08/07/03 04:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Nothing is stopping you is it?




and i have.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788818 - 08/07/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I could have used my own words, but it would have sucked, I'm not that eloquent. Besides, that's all I really planned to post on this suject. I can't sit here and debate whether or not their deaths were somehow justfied, our viewpoints are far too opposed for either of us to be effective on the other. I can't justify killing another human being at all.

#edit# I could have sworn I hit reply to Shakta


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (08/07/03 04:09 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Rono]
    #1788820 - 08/07/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LOL...the Japanese were trying to take over the entire world?...You gotta be kidding me...get your facts straight.




Alright, how about a significant portion of it. Does that make you feel better.

Quote:

First of all, the Japanese were basically forced into attacking the U.S. BY the U.S. They had unreasonble demands put on them that Truman knew the Japanese would never agree to.




What the fuck are you talking about? Truman wasn't even President when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Quote:

Secondly..by the time Truman decided to nuke Japan...the Japanese were already beaten badly...




Not true either. It would have taken quite a while to beat them. They would have defended the islands very fiercely.

Quote:

In all honesty I may have a personal bias regarding this issue since I was adopted by Japanese parents...and both of them have spent time in Japanese Internment camps after having all of their property and belongings taken away from them.




That was a horrible thing that we did do. Locking up the Japanese Americans was wrong. People were scared as hell, and thought it was a good idea. It of course was not.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1788822 - 08/07/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well the americans killed many more "innocent" japanese by fire bomibng the island with napalm. And the japs were not beaten badly. Many many more would have died during any invasion. The japs would have forced those "fishermen" you speak of you try and fight. The fact is many more died from napalm and many more would have died during an invasion. The bombings saved many lives.

And rono why didnt the japs surrender after the first bomb that dropped. i think that must prove how crazy they are.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788831 - 08/07/03 04:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Sure would be cool if you just used your own words to argue the point. I am not saying it was a great thing or anything. It did end the war, and saved lives on both sides. Would you have been happier had it not happened and Japan turned into an Empire controlling all of Asia? The Japanese attacked us first to drag us into the war. We ended it. The leadership of Japan was pretty much insane. They would have been willing to sacrifice nearly the entire population to defend the islands.




Your ignorance of history is appalling. But not surprising, since the history of the bombings is whitewashed in the US.

First of all, it was not necessary to use the bombs to stop Japan from turning into an "Empire controlling all of Asia." The Japanese had already been more or less evicted from the rest of Asia by the time the bombs were dropped. There were few holdout platoons here and there, but the Japanese did not exercise any further control of the Asian colonies.

Your belief that the leadership of Japan "would have been willing to sacrifice nearly the entire population to defend the islands" is logically inconsistent. If that were the case they would have kept fighting, A-bomb or no A-bomb.

It was not necessary to drop the bombs on heavily populated cities. The US could have dropped the first one on a relatively uninhabited area. This would have demonstrated the sheer destructive power of the bomb just as effectively.

They should have given the Japanese a week to survey the damage with the ultimatum that either they surrender or the next one lands on a city.

The key reason that the Japanese were unwilling to surrender was that they were afraid the Americans would try and execute the emperor. The US gave every indication that that's what it would do--before the surrender. After the surrender, of course, MacArthur and the occupation force realized that executing the emperor would make the Japanese completely ungovernable and decided to let him off the hook anyway. The Japanese would have surrendered much more readily had they known in the first place that the emperor would be spared.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians were massacred. That is crime against humanity. If you wish to defend and justify such an action, be my guest. I won't shed any tears though if it's your ass that's vaporized next time.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788853 - 08/07/03 04:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

[
And rono why didnt the japs surrender after the first bomb that dropped. i think that must prove how crazy they are.




They only had 72 hours between one bomb and the next. The first bombing was something completely unparalleled in history. It takes a little more than 72 hours for a completely new and unfathomable reality to set in.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788858 - 08/07/03 04:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The fact is we were at war with japan. It had to ended somehow. The choices presented at the time were invasion or drop the a-bomb. And the japs had enought time to see "omg a whole city is gone from one bomb lets call the americans" so dont say they need to "survey" the damage. Although i would agree maybe showing them the force of the bomb first could have prevented them from being dropped on the areas they were but i really doubt they would have surrendured when shown a test.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788863 - 08/07/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

A couple of things. They did not know if the bombs would really work. They had two shots and needed to use them effectively. The American public did not want to lose another hundred thousand soldiers trying to defeat Japan. They started the war with us, and we finished it. Had their defeat been more assured, or had we had a fuller arsenal a demonstration of the devices would have been a better choice. It took two bombs for them to surrender. That should give an indication of the amount of dedication they had to not giving up. At that point, they knew they were beat and gave up. The Japanese were a very savage empire. What they did to the Koreans alone was enough to warrant the force used to stop them. I don't know if they could have gained control of Asia at that point or not, the main point again is that Truman felt it would save lives on both sides to end it quickly.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788872 - 08/07/03 04:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
The fact is we were at war with japan. It had to ended somehow. The choices presented at the time were invasion or drop the a-bomb. And the japs had enought time to see "omg a whole city is gone from one bomb lets call the americans" so dont say they need to "survey" the damage. Although i would agree maybe showing them the force of the bomb first could have prevented them from being dropped on the areas they were but i really doubt they would have surrendured when shown a test.




Can you step back for a second and actually think before making a knee-jerk reaction?

OK, you "doubt" that they would have surrendered when shown a test? And that doubt justifies killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians? Why not at least have given them the chance? The US had nothing to lose by waiting a few days.


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788879 - 08/07/03 04:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Why wouldn't they need to "survey" the damage...it's not like they had satellite or any effective communications after the bomb was dropped.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788882 - 08/07/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Don't forget, the Japanese were the ones who invented the concept of "Kamikaze Pilot." The mentality of the U.S.'s enemy was better understood by Truman and his contemporaries than by present day Americans who never had to face the horrors of fighting the Japanese on Pacific islands.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: Autonomous]
    #1788891 - 08/07/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
Don't forget, the Japanese were the ones who invented the concept of "Kamikaze Pilot." The mentality of the U.S.'s enemy was better understood by Truman and his contemporaries than by present day Americans who never had to face the horrors of fighting the Japanese on Pacific islands.




Good point. They were pretty much crazy. My grandfather was in the South Pacific. The battles for the islands were some of the bloodiest of the war. They had no problem sending wave after wave of soldiers to their death.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788892 - 08/07/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The japs could see the force of the bomb and launch every last thing it had on the americans or any surronding country for that matter. Form a country that suported kamikazis i could see this happening.

And rono i can drive a car from where the former emperor was at to hiroshima no problem at tell that the place was destroyed. It not hard to look at around and see nothing for a 5 mile radius from where the bombs blew up.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788895 - 08/07/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
A couple of things. They did not know if the bombs would really work. They had two shots and needed to use them effectively. The American public did not want to lose another hundred thousand soldiers trying to defeat Japan. They started the war with us, and we finished it. Had their defeat been more assured, or had we had a fuller arsenal a demonstration of the devices would have been a better choice. It took two bombs for them to surrender. That should give an indication of the amount of dedication they had to not giving up. At that point, they knew they were beat and gave up. The Japanese were a very savage empire. What they did to the Koreans alone was enough to warrant the force used to stop them. I don't know if they could have gained control of Asia at that point or not, the main point again is that Truman felt it would save lives on both sides to end it quickly.




The question of whether the bombs would work or not is moot. If you dropped it on a forest and it didn't work, the Japanese wouldn't be any the wiser. They wouldn't even know that the US tried. They would have still had one left. If it came to that, they could have dropped the remaining bomb on a city. That's not what happened. They didn't even try.

They would have surrendered after a demonstration if they knew the emperor would have been allowed to survive, which is what happened anyway.

Do you really expect anybody with a grain of sense to think that Truman gave a rat's ass about Japanese lives when he made his decision? Of course his job was to put American lives first. Nothing wrong with that. Waiting a few days wouldn't have made a significant difference in saving American lives, although it would have made a HUGE difference in saving Japanese civilian lives.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788908 - 08/07/03 04:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

He did wait a few days. You have got to be kidding when you say they did not know what the damage from the first bomb was like. They did have planes after all. I think that would have been plenty of time to fly a plane over the city, and report back to Tokyo. The point you are missing about the bombs not working is Truman could not afford to take that risk. These were the only two bombs available. Neither one were guaranteed to work. Wasting either one of them could have left them with nothing. Again hindsight is 20/20.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788912 - 08/07/03 04:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

For one we did test a-bombs in nevada before we dropped them on japan. They knew they would work.

And again americans killed more japs with napalm then the a-bombs did combined. Killing wasent new to the world. And again i would expect anything from a country where its "innocent" people commit suicide before the americans reached their island.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788919 - 08/07/03 04:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
For one we did test a-bombs in nevada before we dropped them on japan. They knew they would work.

And again americans killed more japs with napalm then the a-bombs did combined. Killing wasent new to the world. And again i would expect anything from a country where its "innocent" people commit suicide before the americans reached their island.




They never dropped one from a plane though. The rigged the test bomb up with all the wires hooked to it in a cradle. That is a bit different than dumping it out of plane that is hauling ass.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: shakta]
    #1788931 - 08/07/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

So they added a timer and put it in a metal casing. The americans would not have droped an almost working nuke with uranium included if it didnt know if it work 99%. Imagine if it didnt work and then the japs had an almost functional bomb. Turman wouldnt have risked that uless it was 99%


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: d33p]
    #1788940 - 08/07/03 04:44 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
The japs could see the force of the bomb and launch every last thing it had on the americans or any surronding country for that matter. Form a country that suported kamikazis i could see this happening.

And rono i can drive a car from where the former emperor was at to hiroshima no problem at tell that the place was destroyed. It not hard to look at around and see nothing for a 5 mile radius from where the bombs blew up.




Once again, what none of you can seem address is why the Japanese were never given a fair chance to consider their options and the consequences of each choice. All you can do is repeat this stupid mantra about how crazy the Japanese were. If they were really that crazy, they would have kept fighting a guerrilla insurgency war against the US until hell froze over. After the occupation, however, they were completely cooperative with the US and simply went about doing the work of rebuilding their country, which they did with a measure of success that puts most of the rest of the world to shame.

They were never given a reasonable opportunity to weigh all of the options. They just woke up one morning and a city was vaporized. This had more to do with Truman's racism and his desire to show the Soviet Union who's boss than with saving lives.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Hiroshima mayor says world moving to war... [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1788959 - 08/07/03 04:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I said before if the japs were shown the force of the bomb they surely would have known it was there end (they would have easily thought the americans has a great supply of these). So the japs could have a launched an all out attack on americans and other countried in the areas. They were going to do anything to try and win.

Again we killed more japs with napalm then the nukes. And we would have killed more by invading.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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