After reading this entire thread, I find it difficult to keep my emotions at bay. However, it is important that emotions be left at the proverbial door. From this standpoint, it may well seem as though my wordings come off as cold, harsh, or otherwise mean spirited. I assure you that I mean no ill will or offer any sort of malicious intent, I intend only to speak the truth. I may pick on any and all of you indiscriminately, and only hope you would do the same for me.
Firs off, this thread has more tangents than my last three trig exams. I would like to back into my first point gently, unfortunately my other arguments rest strongly on the fundamentals from it. If you are easy to be offended, I suggest to stop reading here. If not, please continue; be careful, the first step is a doozy.
What about the children or what about the people who abuse or what about the consequences of non users from users
I would like to pick on Gumbi for this point, due to 1. I think he can take it, 2. He shows the example well, 3. last and definitely least, he called me a hooker.
While I fully understand your compassion for other entities and their welfare, you need to leave it at the door. your woes about someone else's well being stops rational thought. I strongly suggest a strong dose of apathy with your morning cup or coffee (or meth, or pot, or whatever). When you are able to make the choice of not caring, you have made the choice of being able to see situations without allowing your emotions to get involved.
At the heart of compassion is not just caring, but being able to make a difference in the well being of others. It is too easy to get wrapped up in the urgency of the emotionalality of a situation where anyone is suffering. Unfortunately, most situations involve suffering and dram follows criminals. Don't let your caring for other people stop you from helping them. By that I mean, don't let your knee jerk compasionate thoughts take over the rational part of thinking (which emotions tend to do) to not be able to come to a rational solution that will fix those problems. The fear of change is great, the fear of understand change is greater, the fear of understanding that there will be suffering in this world both before and after change is almost insurmountable. Please, lets not wuss out before the fights even begun.
If you want to help another man and I mean truly help them, teach him how to fish and don't cry about him going to bed hungry.
God didn't make 'fubar' so it should be illegal or psychadelics should be legal for spiritual growth or any other arguments founded on 'god' or 'spirituality' or otherwise transcendent being/forces/whatever
Please, for the love of your being, keep god out of your drugs!
For those of you who are religious/spiritual/have an imaginary friend: Either of 2 situations about your beliefs are true:
1. God created life. Therefore God created man. Therefore all man made objects are created from god.
2. God didn't create life/man/all drugs.
In either of these instances, either god made all drugs or he made no drugs. No one drug gets a waiver from god. Cope.
For those of you who use drugs for spiritual purposes:
Keep it to yourself, or at least out of the 'drug legalization' arguments. This is all about motive.
(This next part is going to fly over like a lead balloon with the mushy crowd. Sorry guys, its true.)
I like to get high. I do drugs to get high. If you like to do drugs for spiritual purposes, people assume (me included) that you are too much of a pussy to admit that you like getting high. True or not, trying to slip in on the religious front makes you look dishonest and disingenuous.
Lets look at the similarities between you 'having a spiritual time' and me 'getting high'.
1. When I get high, I feel good.
2. When you have a 'spiritual time', you feel good.
Please note that when I say 'good' I mean that we have gained value from the experience that we chose to have.
Please don't tell people that you use drugs for spiritual purposes in order to soften the blow of you liking to choose chemical induced experiences. For someone who is steadfast against your position you come off as a douche bag used car salesmen who doesn't have the conviction to say that he enjoys getting high. When talking to any person who is opposed to recreational drug use, there are only a few possible senarios.
1. you say 'drug' and 'spiritual' in the same paragraph and...
a. They hear 'drug' and 'high' in the same paragraph and stop listening.
b. They hear 'drug' and 'high' in the same paragraph and think you're too much of a pussy to admit that you like getting high and therefore think you are a liar. See (a).
2. You say 'drug' and 'high in the same paragraph and...
a. They hear 'drug' and 'high' in the same paragraph and stop listening.
b. They hear 'drug' and 'high' in the same paragraph and at least think you're man enough to admit that you like getting high.
Of those 4 senarios, the only one in which has any reasonable chance of getting someone else to respect your right to get 'high' is 2b. This argument isn't for having people think that its okay for someone else to do a chemical recreationaly, this argument is to have everyone respect our right to do with our bodies as we see fit.
Seriously, keep god out of your drug discussions if you want to keep god in your drugs.
I have a friend that... (did stupid thing, usually) or I've done/did/have been addicted to (substance) or I have witnessed (insert atrocity here)
Great. No one believes you. Well, I don't believe you at least, and no one else should either. Why?
1. People lie.
2. People exaggerate.
3. Even if it is honest to goodness truth, I probably still don't give a damn.
Most of these anecdotes are nothing more than thinly veiled argumentum ad populum (Argument to the sentiment, aka. tugging on the heart strings). This is a logical fallacy that has plagued mankind for milenia. As I said earlier, leave your emotion at the door. If you try and convince me that my chemical usage causes domestic violence/criminal behavior/malice/kids to starve in etheopia you get...
1. disdain
2. loss of respect for trying to use an utterly fallacious argument.
Seriously, I am aware that the black market (which does business with illegal chemicals) causes suffering. You telling me that you have have seen a pimp beat up a hooker brings NOTHING to the table (sorry Gumbi).
Absolute certainty
It doesn't exist. Cope.
While this thread doesn't seem horribly rife with these sorts of arguments, I have seen in my day quite a few arguments that break down to...
I will agree if...
1. You can prove that is exactly what will happen
2. This will end all of our problems
Guess what, scientists don't "know" much of anything. Thats a mathmatitions job. Nobody knows much of anything with 100% certainty (other than self exists, and data is data) and there is no golden bullet for any problem.
methodologial naturalism (read: the scientific method) has gotten us from beating each others brains out with rocks to blowing each other up with abhrams tanks in a few short centuries. We accomplished all this without knowing shit for absolute certainty. We can get through this, it'll be just peachy.
I don't like (substance) so it should be illegal
I hate the color purple. Hate is too nice of a word, I loathe it. The sight of the color makes me wretch in disgust. A guy who I work with drives a purple car. It saddens me as a human being that anyone would choose to drive a vehicle of that color.
Guess what? Too fucking bad for me. Too bad for you too.
I could spout proverbs all day long involving kitchenware and other peoples junk. Quite frankly (and this is really really important) you as a human being have absolutely no more right to tell me what to do than I have to tell you what to do. The second I get to tell you what clothes to wear every day you get to tell me what I get to ingest and what state of mind I am allowed to be in.
I honestly don't give a damn if I do something that you don't agree with. I don't really give a damn if you do something I don't agree with either; I have and regularly exercise my choice to remove myself from that stimulus. It's fine if you don't like what I do, there is no need to be a bitch about it.
Over abundant use of logical fallacies
I'm going to pick on Diploid for a second here, but I will mention other fallacies that have been used as well.
Diploid, seriously, you're fighting the good fight but you got to knock it off with the non sequitur/ad homm attacks. On at least two occasions you have spouted off what amounts to...
"Of course you would say that, you're just touting the DARE pledge."
1. Even if someone is touting the company slogan to a "T", that does not infer that they have been "fed bullshit from the man". It may very well be their opinion through their own research, experience, and belief system. To assume anything less is presumptuous, insulting, bad form, and most importantly logically fallacious.
2. Arguing the person via presuming the person based on their argument doesn't do anyone any justice. If its a similar enough argument that has been thwarted before, feel free to be lazy and quote yourself or others. Argue their arguments, not them.
In all seriousness Diploid, I respect your thoughts and arguments and agree with them thoroughly. Leave your emotions at the door and don't let them interfere with your ability to think and express yourself rationally. Take a chill pill if you need to (and pass one over here while you're at it).
Some other oft used logical fallacys: post hoc ergo propter hoc, cum hoc ergo propter hoc, (converse) fallacy of accident, etc.
Also, try not to be a presumptuous ass. In my interpretation of some of the above posts I believe that Diploid does not in fact do meth. Presuming that he does because he once said the word 'need' in a post and then attacking him about his 'problem' would lead a reasonable man to affirm that he does (even if he doesn't) just to show that his viewpoint is unwaivering based on which chemical he is referring to. Well, that and all of your undocumented personal affairs I believe to be complete bullshit anyhow.
Some lose ends + other bitches
Hopi said:
...but other side in me is just screaming, "People are too stupid to use drugs responsibly! Don't let them!"
Sorry to break it to you homie, but you're 'average joe', just like me. We should turn ourselves in to the police for doing stupid and illegal activities. You first.
opensaysme said:
I'm going to vote Ron Paul, but a feel it may be a throw away vote....
I pray on everything good that you followed through. I hear way too many people complain that they want 'change' in their government but continue to vote down the same damn party line under the guise of "I'de rather have (x) than (y) as (politician)". For anyone who voted for someone other than who they thought would do the best job as president I have only this to say. Quit being a pussy and dragging down the rest of the country with your lack of conviction. You are the reason why we haven't had a non bipartisan presidential leader in my lifetime. Grow a spine and support that which you believe in. In death I have only my good name, in life I have only my convictions.
Conclusion
There are some of you I agree with, and some of you I don't agree with. As long as you believe what you believe, you deserve nothing but respect.
For those of you who disagree with my stance, I hope that you will be highly critical of my thoughts and that one day we may dissuade each other.
For those of you who agree with me, keep fighting the good fight and keep fighting it good. None of us can do this alone, but all of us may be able to.
For everyone: Just chill out, you're not getting out of life alive.
--------------------
Wanna hear something depressing? One out of four Shroomerites wants to lock me in a government cage for using a substance they don't like.
Hard to believe, right? Read it for yourself:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7874721#Post7874721
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