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Muppet
Nomadic Jester



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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: mycopsycho]
#7877869 - 01/14/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
mycopsycho said: Now, correct me if im wrong but if the government tells us what is good and what is bad for us isnt that leaning towards communism?
ding! ding! ding! ding!
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Ravings of a Madman
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mycopsycho
Tit Inspector.



Registered: 06/17/04
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Muppet]
#7877871 - 01/14/08 11:33 AM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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hi muppet! be back later.. goin to work now...
-------------------- I Am The Sickness. Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.
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Muppet
Nomadic Jester



Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 28,785
Loc: (523) 327-2836
Last seen: 13 years, 11 days
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: mycopsycho]
#7877889 - 01/14/08 11:37 AM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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I got a class to goto this evening...so it might now be until late
I'll definitely stop in an get caught up before I call it a night though
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Ravings of a Madman
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WhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
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Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Quote:
andyistic said:
Quote:
Shroomism said: Legalize everything. No exceptions.
I hope you're not including children in this "no exceptions" clause. Kids + lethal drugs = Bad news.
I don't think anybody who voted to legalize drugs suggested that there should be no regulation. Legalization means regulation is actually possible.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Shroomism]
#7878774 - 01/14/08 03:24 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Wait a second... did you just compare drugs to weapons?? They are not even in the same league.
That depends how you look at it.
Quote:
Weapons... are to force your will against other people... usually to end consciousness.
I disagree. You can use drugs recreationally (to get high) or as a weapon (poison, chem warfare, date rape drug).
The same holds true for firearms: they can be used recreationally (shooting sports) or as a weapon (self defense, murder, war)
In both cases there will be harm to society done if you completely legalize them, but it will also have it's upsides.
Quote:
they are all used for the same purpose - to kill.
Not if you're sniping tin cans at 2.500ft or honing your aim.
You can have fun with a needle or with a pistol at the range. If you take 100 responsible adults and you introduce 50 to the art of pistol shooting and the other 50 to the art of speedball shooting, and then let 5 years pass, which group will be better off?
Your average joe is better able to handle a Glock than to handle crack or heroin use.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Quote:
WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:
andyistic said:
Quote:
Shroomism said: Legalize everything. No exceptions.
I hope you're not including children in this "no exceptions" clause. Kids + lethal drugs = Bad news.
I don't think anybody who voted to legalize drugs suggested that there should be no regulation. Legalization means regulation is actually possible.
Bingo. Total legalization, and regulation, of all drugs, including the abolishment of the prescription system. Chubba, and others, keep your nanny state out of my life. Just because you can't control yourselves, doesn't men that I, or most people, can't. In fact I know several people that have only done meth two or three times, and only one person for whom it became a real problem. I personally never felt the need to even try, but hey, that's just me.
To Wiccan regarding weapons: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Those wise old men wrote that for a reason. In order for the people to protect themselves from tyranny they must have access to weapons equaling those of the "well regulated Militia", IE., the armed forces. As far as I'm concerned, this includes everything from a .22 rifle, to an F-22 jet, to an M-2 tank.
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trepanib
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Ziggen]
#7879407 - 01/14/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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You know regulation involves government interference too? It will be as much if not more of a nanny state. Read my earlier post I want to see how those problems get addressed.
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Ziggen
Bludgeon Yer Eye



Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 651
Loc: Parts Unknown
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879451 - 01/14/08 05:42 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Regulation to me means that only those of legal adult age (21 or 18, I don't care) can purchase the product, and that the product contains exactly what it claims to contain, similar to the way that everything you buy in the grocery store must contain labeling information. Also probably taxation along the lines of tobacco and alcohol. This, to me, is acceptable, and is far from the nanny state that says that I can't snort a fat rail of meth, or go to McDonald's and eat trans-fats if I want to because it might be bad for me.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879466 - 01/14/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
trepanib said: You know regulation involves government interference too? It will be as much if not more of a nanny state. Read my earlier post I want to see how those problems get addressed.
With standardized tests? ROFL
You are the one arguing for this nanny state. Most of us anti-prohibitionists are picturing regulation of these drugs in a similar way alcohol is regulated. Sold only to adults; driving while intoxicated is a criminal offense; vendors must have a license to sell it; vendors are bound to refuse sale to those who appear to be intoxicated, etc. etc... we are all familiar with this model. It isn't perfect but it's light years ahead of the bloody mess of alcohol prohibition.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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trepanib
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Ziggen]
#7879482 - 01/14/08 05:47 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Problem here is based on the poll there were many other factors involved and other variables that I think we are failing to address. Yes, I don't see a problem if it's your home doing no harm but once we get to public use we get problems. This subject is much more intricate than how we actually discuss it. In an ideal world fine but theres just so much more to it.
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trepanib
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Most people aren't informed to what they are doing is that ok with drugs no its not. Do you want random people doing what they arent able to handle? How do we know someone is actually informed nobody is answering this.
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mycopsycho
Tit Inspector.



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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879501 - 01/14/08 05:52 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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no one is ever actually informed about alcohol or tobacco aside from the surgeon generals warning labels.
-------------------- I Am The Sickness. Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.
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trepanib
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: mycopsycho]
#7879504 - 01/14/08 05:54 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Yeah? I know that and I think alcohol is more fucked up than alot of drugs whats your point? The poll says informed adults? How can you determine that?
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mycopsycho
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879529 - 01/14/08 05:59 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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you kind of just made my point for me. if the government doesnt give a shit about adults being informed about alcohol before buying it then why the fuck should they care if adults were to be informed about drugs when a lot of drugs are less dangerous?
-------------------- I Am The Sickness. Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.
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trepanib
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: mycopsycho]
#7879553 - 01/14/08 06:05 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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My point is that alcohol laws are bad. Read the poll again it says drugs should be available only for informed adults, alcohol is a drug, but how can you determine who is informed? If you do it for 1 you need to do it for all.
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Ziggen
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879576 - 01/14/08 06:10 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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People aren't any more informed about these drugs now, but they still do them.
The real simple solution is that if you take shit that you can't handle, and go out in public and cause problems you get pinched for intoxicated and disorderly or disturbing the peace, same as it is now when drunken frat-boys flood out of bars at 2 am.
If you can't be bothered to inform yourself as to proper dosage and OD, then there's one less moron. No big deal.
If you think that legalizing drugs is going to cause some massive outbreak of meth use you're uninformed. If anything prohibition leads to higher levels of abuse, as demonstrated by the US's failed alcohol prohibition experiment. There might be a little spike of curios people immediately following legalization, but that will fall rather quickly, rest assured. For the most part, people inclined to do drugs are already doing them.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879602 - 01/14/08 06:15 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
trepanib said: Most people aren't informed to what they are doing is that ok with drugs no its not. Do you want random people doing what they arent able to handle? How do we know someone is actually informed nobody is answering this.
There is no way to ensure everyone is adequately informed, whether drugs are legal or not.
Random people are already doing what they aren't able to handle.
No matter what kind of standardized tests or drug boot camp or obstacle courses or whatever you throw at people, there can never be a guarantee that people will not harm themselves with drugs, prohibition or no prohibition. Legislation can never cleanly remove certain problem behaviors, although it seems to be drafted as though it will.
Under legalization, we can increase the level of drug education by a tremendous factor by acknowledging that drugs can actually be a part of someone's life without destroying them, and openly discussing how to use drugs in the safest manner possible. Prohibition ensures that such discussion can never take place because "it sends the wrong message." Prohibition is the greatest cause of ignorance about the dangers of drug abuse.
We can reduce the harm associated with drug use, but we can never eliminate it.
But that is irrelevant to the debate about prohibition. The real debate is that we should have the freedom to be responsible for ourselves.
Why do you want to place the responsibility for people's personal drug use in the hands of the government? Sure, there are people who are so thoroughly dumb that even George Bush can make better decisions than they can for themselves, but do you think those are the people who heed drug laws?
And is it fair that we all sacrifice our freedom to run our own lives, just so the government has the right to try to guide irresponsible people to make better choices by periodically throwing them (and the rest of us) in jail?
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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trepanib
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Ziggen]
#7879619 - 01/14/08 06:19 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Well the only way I could fully support it is with better drug education. Not anymore Weed leads to heroin DARE programs. I don't think it should be sold in stores then either, but special shops that way you don't get corner stores selling to kids. Maybe coming from special pharmacies.
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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: trepanib]
#7879632 - 01/14/08 06:21 PM (16 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
trepanib said: Well the only way I could fully support it is with better drug education. Not anymore Weed leads to heroin DARE programs. I don't think it should be sold in stores then either, but special shops that way you don't get corner stores selling to kids. Maybe coming from special pharmacies.
Hehe I don't think anyone's asking for corner stores to sell drugs to kids. That's what we're trying to prevent. Legalization would make better drug education possible, because we can finally dispense with the myth that only bad people do drugs.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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trepanib
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I think this could make an interesting study if done on a scale of an isolated society to determine if use increases, how many people ahrm themselves, how productivity is affected.
Thank you WhiskeyClone for presenting your opinion in a reasonable manner while addressing my questions instead of just spouting the same "Legalization or nanny state" ideas that people seem to think is so obvious and clear cut.
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