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OfflineChubba
Vape hungry

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 6,785
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Drug Legality Poll *DELETED* [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7875720 - 01/13/08 09:00 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Post deleted by Chubba

Reason for deletion: Deleted



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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Chubba]
    #7875740 - 01/13/08 09:05 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Chubba said:
Quote:

1. It is unlikely that a "decent portion" of the population would opt to binge on meth, even if it became legal.





1. Significantly more people would.





Not likely. Do you think the main reason people don't try meth is because they are afraid of getting caught by police? Why do people smoke marijuana and drop LSD yet not try meth?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineCubie
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Chubba]
    #7875746 - 01/13/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Meth does not even make everyone violent a lot of people are quite the oposite. And some stay to their selves.


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OfflineChubba
Vape hungry

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 6,785
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Drug Legality Poll *DELETED* [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7875763 - 01/13/08 09:08 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Post deleted by Chubba

Reason for deletion: Deleted



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OfflineD4NK
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7875774 - 01/13/08 09:10 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
...but it is NOT physically addicting.


While methamphetamine and amphetamine are powerfully (psychologically) addictive substances, there is no PHYSICAL withdrawal involved in the cessation of their use.




Diploid (or anyone else) do you have any good links for this? I keep seeing differing information. I always just ASSUMED that meth was physically addicting. Quite interesting if true.


--------------------
  Moderation is key 

  "There is no god higher than truth." 



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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Chubba]
    #7875786 - 01/13/08 09:11 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Chubba said:

Yes but it does make everyone paranoid as fuck, no exceptions.




Beep. Wrong answer.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: D4NK]
    #7875849 - 01/13/08 09:24 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid (or anyone else) do you have any good links for this?




Sure. PM me, I'll hook you up with my FTP server where you can download the Physician's Desk Reference application (for Windows). Meanwhile, here's the relevant section:

Abuse: Methamphetamine has been extensively abused. Tolerance, extreme psychological dependence, and severe social disability have occurred. There are reports of patients who have increased the dosage to many times that recommended. Abrupt cessation following prolonged high dosage administration results in extreme fatigue and mental depression; changes are also noted on the sleep EEG. Manifestations of chronic intoxication with methamphetamine include severe dermatoses, marked insomnia, irritability, hyperactivity, and personality changes.

Notice the difference for oxycodone which, unlike methamphetamine, IS physically addicting:

Physical dependence is manifested by withdrawal symptoms after abrupt discontinuation of the drug or upon administration of an antagonist. Physical dependence and tolerance are not unusual during chronic opioid therapy.

The opioid abstinence or withdrawal syndrome is characterized by some or all of the following: restlessness, lacrimation, rhinorrhea, yawning, perspiration, chills, myalgia, and mydriasis. Other symptoms also may develop, including: irritability, anxiety, backache, joint pain, weakness, abdominal cramps, insomnia, nausea, anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea, or increased blood pressure, respiratory rate, or heart rate.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Chubba]
    #7875857 - 01/13/08 09:25 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Chubba said:
Sigh... because meth abuse doesn't only effect the user.





Not necessarily. Who says I can't take a hit of meth in my garage and not hurt somebody else as a result?

Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are a million ways I can do things that affect another person negatively, without breaking any sort of law. There is no legislative remedy for this. We are all interconnected. But we are all responsible for ourselves. If someone causes problems for me because of their addiction, it is my responsibility to protect myself from that, not theirs and not the government's, unless that negative behavior itself is a crime.

If somebody's behavior infringes on the rights of another, they are guilty of that offense, whether it's theft, child neglect, assault or anything else. Whether I committed that crime because I'm on drugs or because I'm just an asshole is irrelevant.

Another point prohibitionists seem to miss: people do drugs even when they are illegal. I don't do meth because I don't think it is healthy, not because I am afraid of the legal repercussions of it. The only difference between prohibition and legalization is that conspicuous drug use is met with criminal charges rather than medical treatment.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineChubba
Vape hungry

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 6,785
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Drug Legality Poll *DELETED* [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7875867 - 01/13/08 09:27 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Post deleted by Chubba

Reason for deletion: Deleted



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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Chubba]
    #7875921 - 01/13/08 09:36 PM (16 years, 19 days ago)

Out of valid arguments, I see.

The society that extends full personal responsibility to each citizen is more civilized than the one in which you or I currently live.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineMuppet
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7876963 - 01/14/08 02:22 AM (16 years, 19 days ago)

well...the way *I* see it is that if Joe Schmucketelly out in BFE wants to 'party hard' with a bottle of benzos / a coupla grams of datura / a jug of moonshine / and an eightball - then that fucker deserves what's coming to him (and god knows this place will be a lot better off without his kind around anyway)



it's called natural selection at it's finest  :cheers:


--------------------


:craven:  Ravings of a Madman  :craven:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7877056 - 01/14/08 03:53 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Diploid, let's talk weapons. I'm curious where you would draw the line.

Do you feel a responsible adult should be able to buy firearms?
..full-auto weapons?
..tracer ammo?
..armor-defeating ammo?
..explosive ammo?
..boxes of dynamite & blasting gear?
..hand grenades?
..shoulder-launched rockets?
..mortars?
..artillery pieces?

I assume that on the topic of drugs there may be user bias as to possible societal harm, so please tell me where in this escalating list of ordinance you would draw the line.

It's a serious question, no hidden agenda, I'm curious on your stance in this freedom/responsibility issue.


I voted for provisional but complete legalization. I believe people ought to be able to buy user quantities of 3-methylfentanyl for instance, but not grams of a pure powder thats more toxic than nervegas. The accidental overdose risk of an opiate with 250.000 doses per gram is just too extreme to let the pure substance get in any but the most qualified hands. Pre-dosed pills, powders and ampoules would be OK however.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OfflineJT
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Asante]
    #7877135 - 01/14/08 05:54 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

the only drug i would legalise is cannabis. i would like to see everything decriminalized though, with exceptions to public intoxication. that's infringing on MY rights.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7877185 - 01/14/08 06:42 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Legalize everything. No exceptions.

Take those billions and billions of dollars we spend on the "War on Drugs" and incarcerating drug offenders, and use them on things like: Drug education, Drug safety.. and I don't know... feeding starving people in our country.


--------------------


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Asante]
    #7877192 - 01/14/08 06:48 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Diploid, let's talk weapons. I'm curious where you would draw the line.

Do you feel a responsible adult should be able to buy firearms?
..full-auto weapons?
..tracer ammo?
..armor-defeating ammo?
..explosive ammo?
..boxes of dynamite & blasting gear?
..hand grenades?
..shoulder-launched rockets?
..mortars?
..artillery pieces?

I assume that on the topic of drugs there may be user bias as to possible societal harm, so please tell me where in this escalating list of ordinance you would draw the line.

It's a serious question, no hidden agenda, I'm curious on your stance in this freedom/responsibility issue.





Wait a second... did you just compare drugs to weapons??
They are not even in the same league.

Drugs you use, for the most part.. as a choice.. on your own free will..usually to enhance consciousness (unless someone uses a weapon to force it on you.

Weapons... are to force your will against other people... usually to end consciousness. For example, I take a shotgun, and blow someone else's head off with it.

You can't blow someone's head off with some LSD. (Literally)

Drugs are not weapons. And if you ask me there is no difference between a fully-automatic weapon and a semi-automatic, one just shoots faster or makes a bigger explosion, they are all used for the same purpose - to kill.


--------------------


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Invisiblemycopsycho
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Shroomism]
    #7877246 - 01/14/08 07:23 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Wow, I must say... I think Chubba is the most uninformed hypocritical ass in this thread. I completely agree with Diploid and Shroomism: Legalize it all, adults are supposed to be responsible for themselves.
Now, correct me if im wrong but if the government tells us what is good and what is bad for us isnt that leaning towards communism?


--------------------
I Am The Sickness.

Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.


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InvisibleSell Your Soul
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Shroomism]
    #7877655 - 01/14/08 10:10 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Legalize everything. No exceptions.





I hope you're not including children in this "no exceptions" clause.
Kids + lethal drugs = Bad news. :nonono:


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Sell Your Soul]
    #7877657 - 01/14/08 10:12 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

i feel like this poll has way too many variables built into two simple one-sentence choices


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Offlinetrepanib
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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: mycopsycho]
    #7877715 - 01/14/08 10:38 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Someone said he needed meth at one point. Saying that automatically means that he has no choice anymore, that the addiction is too strong for him to make the informed choice about what he is doing.
The only things humans need are food, water, shelter. Basics. If you feel you need a drug though, your whole argument about choice is lost because you stated a chemical now controls your life just as much as you do.

There's also the problem of harm. If I'm your mother/father/sibling/grandfather/uncle/son/daughter and your doing drugs HARMS our relationship (You all should agree that mental anguish can be as bad as physical pain. Mental anguish can cause physical pain in extreme cases) then would you agree since you are doing harm you shouldn't be doing drugs?

Obviously, the legality we are talking about is in your own home. An employer would still have the right to fire you if it seemed like you were unproductive, and maybe they can drug test you still and not hire based on that. The drug might be legal but no one said you had to hire someone who uses right?

In order to know if you are properly informed then a standardized test would have to be given to make sure people really do understand what they are doing. This would have to be given through a changed government because you need a centralized system for this. The drug would still be illegal to those under a certain age, to those who didn't pass the test, and I'm assuming in amounts that can only be considered enough for personal use.

So as much as you want freedom to do whatever you want there will always be some type of involvement by whomever controls the society.
Also, based on the poll and what people are saying the following things need to be demonstrated before and during:
-The ability to quit at a days notice, and stay sober.(This demonstrates you are in control of your choices)
-The ability to pass a test that shows you are informed about the specific substance.
-Possession of amounts that show only personal use.
-The ability to support the pastime without having to resort to criminal means to obtain it or the money necessary to buy it.
-That your use will never harm another human being in any way while under the influence of a drug.



This seems almost like more government involvement than before. This is also based on what I read from the people who support the legalization of every drugs posts.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7877754 - 01/14/08 10:55 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Quote:

Diploid (or anyone else) do you have any good links for this?




Sure. PM me, I'll hook you up with my FTP server where you can download the Physician's Desk Reference application (for Windows). Meanwhile, here's the relevant section:

Abuse: Methamphetamine has been extensively abused. Tolerance, extreme psychological dependence, and severe social disability have occurred. There are reports of patients who have increased the dosage to many times that recommended. Abrupt cessation following prolonged high dosage administration results in extreme fatigue and mental depression; changes are also noted on the sleep EEG. Manifestations of chronic intoxication with methamphetamine include severe dermatoses, marked insomnia, irritability, hyperactivity, and personality changes.

Notice the difference for oxycodone which, unlike methamphetamine, IS physically addicting:

Physical dependence is manifested by withdrawal symptoms after abrupt discontinuation of the drug or upon administration of an antagonist. Physical dependence and tolerance are not unusual during chronic opioid therapy.

The opioid abstinence or withdrawal syndrome is characterized by some or all of the following: restlessness, lacrimation, rhinorrhea, yawning, perspiration, chills, myalgia, and mydriasis. Other symptoms also may develop, including: irritability, anxiety, backache, joint pain, weakness, abdominal cramps, insomnia, nausea, anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea, or increased blood pressure, respiratory rate, or heart rate.




Physical dependence is not synonymous with "addiction". You can be physically dependent on a substance, and exhibit withdrawal symptoms after the drugs discontinuation, but not be addicted to it.

This is clearly illustrated by the fact that "substance dependence" and "substance abuse" are defined by the DSM-IV. This is because there are no objective, physiological criteria which can be used to diagnose "addiction", and hence "physically addicting" is a misnomer.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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