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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: manyc]
    #7972805 -

manyc said:
The American government needs to recognize the subculture of neoshamanic psychonauts in this country as a pseudoreligion, whose disciples have the right to grow, extract, and consume any substance classified as an entheogen.


No offense but I think citing the religious practices of "neoshamanic psychonauts" is only going to hurt the credibility of the drug policy reform movement. The public at large is never going to identify with the drug-based rituals of a fringe religion they've never heard of.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: manyc]
    #7972815 -

You know I used to be for all out legalization and thought that was the only real choice for a sane and enlightened society. However, after seeing how some drugs have effected my own life in a negative way (specifically ecstasy) I really have my doubts about a government condoning free use of such chemicals. That's not to say that our current system is at all acceptable in terms of it's drug policy, drug education, and treatment of drug users. The current system is so fucked and out of control and greedy that the illegal drug trade, incarnation of drug users, and rehab of drug addicts is just a business to make money off of... just like every thing else in American society. There's no intelligence or morals or care behind anything have to do with drug law these days it's just people employed by the system trying to make a buck. I think if you had a perfect system, a utopia where there was real education about drug use and not heinous drug propaganda and there was real rehab and not just bigger and powerful legal forms of dope to get hooked on, then a free drug society could work. Only thing is people are far too stupid and far too greedy for that to ever work. So what are we to do? I believe we have to work for the little changes. The battles being fought for the decriminalization and eventual legalization of marijuana is the right step. I hope that mushrooms are not too far behind that. In my opinion in modern American society, natural drugs should be legal because I do not believe them to be a detriment or a threat to citizens of society at large. The drugs you have to create chemically, your cocaine, crack, heroin, lsd, meth, etc. should remain outlawed I believe. However, no matter what it is fucking ridiculous to jail a drug addict, especially if they're non-violent. I really don't understand what that accomplishes.

I would be interested in claiming myself as part of a spiritual hallucinogenic based religion, I kind of consider myself that alright. Just never put a name to it or looked for others who felt the same.


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Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

Edited by StrandedVoyager (02/03/08 12:41 PM)

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: robbyberto]
    #7973403 -

Well, when you've found a government who will go so far as to let us do whatever we want to ourselves, give me a call and I'll relocate my non-spellin' ass there (since the difference between an "a" and an "e" is notable). Til then, it will take baby steps like acknowledging the responsible and spiritual important use of entheogens to get closer to this utopia of total freedom we naively dream of. Sort of like medicinal marijuana is a stepping stone.

We can't expect the government to suddenly come out one day and say "You know... *sigh*.. we were wrong. Weed is alright in our book."

It's no good to just deny the fact that people have been ritualistically ingesting entheogens since we can remember - now, without guidance on the subject, so many people run around tripping just to be tripping. Lost souls. Granted, it's healthy and uber fun to trip to have a good time, but in my opinion that's something that should be restricted to a short phase during your youth, out of ignorance. It waters down the experience and leaves you susceptible to a bad trip. As you age, and your relationship with these substances develops, so does your respect for them. Doesn't mean you can't have fun to have a spiritual trip, but you should catch my drift.

All I'm saying is there are PLENTY of people who would agree with me on this one. We need unity - and I'm not just talking about "godless deadheads" coming together to get high and dance naked. That really doesn't accomplish anything except make you look like you aren't worth listening to.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists... any denomination could benefit from the use of entheogens! It's not just about one way of thought - that we are all one being and there's no such thing as the typical image of God.

People of these most popular religions can still be open-minded enough to see past the bullshit the preachers of their respective denomination spew out. One should not listen to the priest, he should read the Bible and interpret it himself. (Personally I revoked my Catholcism several years ago.) These people could use psychadelics to further strengthen their own beliefs - perhaps it would radically and completely change their beliefs. It's something a person risks when they delve into the experience.

So... it's not just the government that needs to recognize this subculture. The general public needs to, more importantly.

The image of a burnt-out bearded hippie has really dampened our chances for success... when you burn yourself out you lose sight of what really matters.


--------------------

Hemp could Save the World.

"There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian


:mushroomgrow:Know Thyself.:mushroomgrow:

"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."
-Terence Mckenna

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7973457 -

StrandedVoyager said:
However, after seeing how some drugs have effected my own life in a negative way (specifically ecstasy) I really have my doubts about a government condoning free use of such chemicals.


It is not for the government to condone nor condemn. Their job is to insure that you do not infringe on the liberties of your neighbor. You allowing yourself to become an e-tard in no way infringes on anyone's liberties but your own.

It is not until you do something to infringe upon another while under the influence of ecstasy that the government is right to step in, but even in this instance, the ecstasy should not the real cause of the government's concern.


--------------------
Rock over London, rock on Chicago
Kmart, it's the savings place

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Ziggen]
    #7974264 -

Ziggen said:
StrandedVoyager said:
However, after seeing how some drugs have effected my own life in a negative way (specifically ecstasy) I really have my doubts about a government condoning free use of such chemicals.


It is not for the government to condone nor condemn. Their job is to insure that you do not infringe on the liberties of your neighbor. You allowing yourself to become an e-tard in no way infringes on anyone's liberties but your own.

It is not until you do something to infringe upon another while under the influence of ecstasy that the government is right to step in, but even in this instance, the ecstasy should not the real cause of the government's concern.


What we have is a debate of philosophy vs. reality and we're on both sides of the fence. I accept your position and think that both of our opinions are valid but I disagree with you.


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Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: robbyberto]
    #7974414 -

I think it's hilarious that you can write a post like that and spell psychedelic incorrectly. It tickled me.

Cut him some slack. Can't you see his moodicon says he's stoned? :rofl2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7974438 -

However, after seeing how some drugs have effected my own life in a negative way (specifically ecstasy) I really have my doubts about a government condoning free use of such chemicals.

So because you're unable to control yourself, you want a government nanny program to tie your hands... and along the way tie my hands too. In other words, punish me for your behavioral problems, which by the way, I don't have.

Well THAT SUCKS!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7975424 -

Diploid said:
However, after seeing how some drugs have effected my own life in a negative way (specifically ecstasy) I really have my doubts about a government condoning free use of such chemicals.

So because you're unable to control yourself, you want a government nanny program to tie your hands... and along the way tie my hands too. In other words, punish me for your behavioral problems, which by the way, I don't have.

Well THAT SUCKS!


It's just my opinion, the government won't let you have uranium, anthrax, or tomahawk missiles and shouldn't let you have those things. Why because they're highly dangerous and destructive and have much more potential for harm than good. I would categorize certain drugs in that category as well.

Also why are you asking for opinions if you don't want to hear them?


--------------------
Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

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Re: Drug Legality Poll *DELETED* [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7975455 -

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Reason for deleting?



--------------------
Alcoholics Anonymous

Narcotics Anonymous

Get help, help is free and available 24/7/365.

God bless you all and I hope you receive the help you need to turn away from your lives of sin.

Mushrooms and drugs make you gay, you can reverse this homosexual condition with rehab, get help! Stop being gay!

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Chemy]
    #7975474 -

Nobody read what I wrote did they. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7976677 -

StrandedVoyager said:
It's just my opinion, the government won't let you have uranium, anthrax, or tomahawk missiles and shouldn't let you have those things. Why because they're highly dangerous and destructive and have much more potential for harm than good. I would categorize certain drugs in that category as well.



Well no, it's because those substances are very useful in killing a lot of OTHER people. When I overdose on drugs, it doesn't kill YOU.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7978015 -

WhiskeyClone said:
StrandedVoyager said:
It's just my opinion, the government won't let you have uranium, anthrax, or tomahawk missiles and shouldn't let you have those things. Why because they're highly dangerous and destructive and have much more potential for harm than good. I would categorize certain drugs in that category as well.



Well no, it's because those substances are very useful in killing a lot of OTHER people. When I overdose on drugs, it doesn't kill YOU.


There's got to be a balance. Certain drugs take choice out of the equation because of their addiction factors. Meth is a pandemic is certain areas because people get addicted to it and then have an overriding control outside of themselves that determines their decisions. The only difference between a person who died on meth or a person who died on anthrax is the choice in the matter, to you that choice is the key and most of you feel that you should have the right to make that choice. While I do believe everyone should have the free will to do what they wish, the potential dangers of certain substances outweighs the ability to choose because of their ability to overtake and influence decisions and cause addiction.

However like I said before society is never going to be able to legitimately, morally, and without corruption handle this problem. I really like what Canada has done where certain areas of major cities are zoned or at least there's understanding that what goes on in those zones will not be interfered with by the police or disciplined. I believe they do this in Amsterdam as well. All out legalization probably is the only fair way a human society can keep a balance for drug use. I want to make it clear once again that I certainly am not a prohibitionist. I think the drug war is a joke and a scam and the chief reason our economy and society has deteroated to where it has fallen too. However, realistically you have to do something to control certain substances so that the negative effects of those do not inhibit society. You say that a drug addict just kills himself if he overdoses, however the potential for destruction to society when that addict overdoses is very large. Property destruction, health care costs, theft, violence are all very common traits and symptons of certain substances and the abuse of those substances. That's why I think it needs to be regulated.

If I ran the world this is what I would do.

1. Legalize all natural substances (Marijuana, Mushrooms, Peyote, Etc.)

2. Decriminalize all chemical substances (Cocaine, Heroin, LSD, etc.)

3. Pass legislation that chemical substances may be done in certain zoned areas or in one's own home.

I have more but I'm feeling kind of baked so I'm going to stop.

Anyway, that's my response.


--------------------
Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #7979188 -

StrandedVoyager said:
Nobody read what I wrote did they. :rolleyes:


I think Chemy's point was that people don't have access to nuclear weapons etc., while anyone who would like to get almost any illegal drug can already. So why not have the government sell them in a controlled manner (not questionaires and shit, i mean pure, measured doses) and profit from it. The profit can be used for education about how to use them safely and treat addicts who want help.

Quote:
You say that a drug addict just kills himself if he overdoses, however the potential for destruction to society when that addict overdoses is very large.


Overdose on an illegal drug is probably accidental due to unknown strength; overdosing on a known dose of a drug is either stupidity or suicide, both of which are easy enough to die from anyway.

Quote:
Property destruction, health care costs, theft, violence are all very common traits and symptons of certain substances and the abuse of those substances. That's why I think it needs to be regulated.


This depends entirely on the individual and their situation, none of these effects can be blamed entirely on a drug. In the worst case, if the individual doesn't want to quit their habit, all these symptoms could be alleviated for relatively small cost by supplying the drug free of charge in sufficient quantity to maintain the addiction.

Edited by jizmaster (02/04/08 07:04 PM)

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #7983050 -

A decriminalized system would funnel this money to drug education and treatment programs instead of to funding cops out looking for people like me who mind their own business and do their drugs in private in their home.

DARE brainwashing of all you anti-drug Shroomerites notwithstanding, the concepts of personal responsibility and legalizing and taxing recreational drugs work!

--

time.com

In April of 2005, Jeremy Robbins was arrested attempting to traffic two tons of marijuana from Arizona to East Tennessee. Indicted on federal drug conspiracy charges, Robbins was soon assessed a $1.1 million fine from Tennessee's Department of Revenue. The reason: failure to comply with the state's Unauthorized Substances Tax, which requires anyone in possession of a certain quantity of contraband — in the case of marijuana, more than 42.5 grams — to buy a tax stamp from the state government and affix it on the drug.

The so-called "crack tax" applies to controlled substances like marijuana and cocaine, and also illicit alcoholic beverages like moonshine. It allows someone to anonymously purchase stamps in person from the Department of Revenue based on the type and amount of the substance ($3.50 for a gram of marijuana, $50 for a gram of cocaine, etc.) with the understanding that doing so cannot be used against them in a criminal court. Posessing drugs is still illegal — the tax works completely outside the criminal justice system. A stamp cannot provide immunity from criminal prosecution, and a conviction of possession isn't required for the Department of Revenue to assess the penalties.

Of the 726 stamps sold so far (some to collectors as novelty items), none have turned up during a seizure. The penalty for not having a stamp can exceed 10 times the original cost — and the Department of Revenue concedes that the tax was instituted with the expectation that most dealers won't buy the stamp. "Dealers can do it either way," says Assistant Commissioner for Operations Sam Chessor. "But in reality, the payoff for us is going to be on the back end, not the front end. "

And what a payoff: since the tax was enacted in 2004 it has netted Tennessee $3.5 million in extra revenue, 75% of which goes directly to the enforcement agencies that carry out the drug busts.

Still, some opponents argue that adding such steep penalties on top of criminal charges amounts to a second punishment, and thus a violation of double jeopardy law. "Aside from this incredible acrimony and bill-collecting mentality," says Knoxville attorney Gregory P. Isaacs, "you are divested of all your constitutional rights."

For that reason, a Davidson County chancellor last summer ruled the tax unconstitutional, and stopped the state from collecting Robbins' $1.1 million. But the Department of Revenue, confident the ruling will be overturned on appeal, is continuing with the assessments. Says Deputy Commissioner Reagan Farr, "It's fine to have a criminal and a regulatory scheme running in tandem. We've made sure our statute is purely regulatory, not punitive." But no matter how you define it, the bottom line for Tennessee is that crime pays.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: robbyberto]
    #8003071 -

one way to make them legal and still manage them (at least some) they could make them very expensive unless prescribed by a doctor. or some sort of counceller that you have to see to make sure you are educated and then you could also get teh drugs cheaper.


hahah didnt read teh post above me. scanned it looks liek a similiar thing. ahah

Edited by the man (02/09/08 11:04 PM)

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: the man]
    #8003747 -

Thats insane Diploid! Wonder what the tax is on a gram of ALEPH! Maybe they have a generic psychedelic powders tax, they'd have to know the potency though to be able to put a price on a certain amount.

Quote:
one way to make them legal and still manage them (at least some) they could make them very expensive unless prescribed by a doctor. or some sort of counceller that you have to see to make sure you are educated and then you could also get teh drugs cheaper.


If people can get something either cheaper or without the hassle of having to convince a doctor they need it on the black market, they will get it from the black market. Unless they're sold freely (i agree with age restriction though) and cheaper than any criminal organisation can compete with, they will still be sold on the black market and other countries will continue getting fucked up from producing them.

Edited by jizmaster (02/10/08 06:45 AM)

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: learningtofly]
    #8032396 -

In response to the (fucking merciless) criticism of my earlier post, I just gotta say, you guys are talking about a sane world where people see things the way they are. That hasn't existed since people have.

Mine might not be perfect, but I don't mean it as a goal, I mean it as a step towards the goal.

You guys are right, though, in that the gov might try to take it further from there with taxes and whatever capitalistic actions might benefit themselves. What we need is to get rid of the drug=bad mentality so that the subject becomes so high profile they wouldn't try any BS like that, but there seem to be rules against that just like when people disappeared after speaking out against Hitler.


--------------------
CoffeeSh0p.com - Cannabis seeds, MGS, HBWS, Salvia Divinorum, Legal Entheogens @ the CoffeeSh0p .

Edited by OpFoxdie (02/16/08 08:01 PM)

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Robo]
    #8039235 -

Once you start restricting freedom, its not really freedom. Let the stupid people kill themselves please.


--------------------
What's wrong with folks?

Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs.


Mush Porn

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: robbyberto]
    #8063494 -

diploid, no one wants to lock you in a cage, voting that some drugs should be illegal doesnt mean you want users locked up, just means you dont fancy having crack or meth on the supermarket shelf, you sound a bit high horsed

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Re: Drug Legality Poll [Re: Diploid]
    #8063712 -

Now, I know I'm new here, and my opinion may not hold much weight, but I feel I have to express it.

I'm not a very good writer or orator, so I'll just say it how I think it.
1.The options in the poll are too utopic.
2.The (side)effects of many drugs can and most likely will extend outside of the privacy of the user's own home.
Now I'll try to follow up on those two arguments.
1. Like I said, the options are too utopian, and pretty worthless - people who use(notice I say use, and not sell or make or grow) in their own home rarely get prosecuted, and the drug use would still continue at parties, on the streets, in an alley, whatever. So you would still have alot of arrests for the "public" drug use. Maybe a bit less than current levels, but still alot.
2. Just because you can use it in your own home, Diploid, and not have it affect your social life(an ad hominem here, I admit - are you really sure your meth use isn't affecting your relationship with others?), doesn't mean that the majority of users will be able to control it. Not everyone, actually, in all probability a small minority of meth or heroin or crack users go on sites like the Shroomery or Bluelight or Erowid and read up and learn about the drugs. The average Joe will just take it from a friend that this or that will fuck you up real good and will stay with that. Expanding from that, they are also the most likely to not be able to control their use, which will slowly, or maybe quickly(who knows?) form into a habit, and from there to an addiction. Even IF(that's a big if) they continue to only use it in the privacy of their own home, they will still get the side effects of meth or heroin or whatever - they'll get paranoid, or depressed, or turn to criminal activity to get their next fix if they're addicted.

Simple fact of the matter is that meth and heroin and similar drugs destroy much more lives than they help, and destroy much more lives, proportionally, than weed or drugs of that calibre. Argue as much as you want, but it will still be my opinion that almost all meth/heroin/crack/etc. addicts will NOT be able to use responsibly in the privacy of their own home, and will be too much of a risk to society to hope that they will either stay productive(or at the very least non-threatening) or overdose. Sorry, but I just don't want to take the risk that a person has legal and steady access to a drug that may make him stab me and take my wallet and phone and leave me bleeding on the sidewalk to get the money for his next fix. Sure, he might not do that, and sure, those kinds of people would still get the drug if it was illegal, but I want to make it as much of a hassle for them to get it, as much of a hassle to use it, and as much of a risk to their freedom as I can. Sorry, but with meth and drugs of that sort, the bad outwieghs the good by far.

Of course, I am for the legalisation of marijuana, mushrooms, DMT, LSD, and other psychedelic drugs. If you want to argue about that, I'd be happy to.


--------------------
Ten thousand miles an hour plus
We streak across the sky like dust
And none of us know where or why
We're like a jewel in the sky

http://psychedelicnews.wordpress.com/

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