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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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dissociation, sanity, society
#7843339 - 01/07/08 12:16 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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This is a complex topic so please bear with me as I try and work through these thoughts as I go along. Think of this as a kind of stream of consciousness which could later on develop into a philosophy...
Ever since I was little I wondered why most people in society seemed to act in similar ways and believed in the same things. I believe as children we are all "unsane" and are then become sane as we are socialized - some of us are more resistant to this process or more accepting of the programming. As I child I believe I intuited that this programming I was being fed was toxic and so I resisted it fairly strongly at first. I quickly realized I would need to start understanding "the way things worked" if I was going to survive in society. We all have to sacrifice our individuality to fit in. What is this individuality which sets us apart? I don't know if it ever existed in the first place; like a fractal that you could zoom out from forever.
I think about things like destiny and love and god. I am no longer sure if things are the way they are in society because that is the way it is suppose to be, or if we are just vehicles perpetuating these programs, and why we can't seem to step out of the programming. One part of me says that it is love that has allowed us to get this far and another part of me says that love is just another illusion and that what we think of love is a cultural construct, similar to time.
I think the best proof that there is no God is insane people, truly out of their head people. I don't mean people with a few delusions or have some obsessive compulsions; I'm talking about people whose perception of reality is completely and utterly foreign to the rational mind. If the mind becomes dissociated enough, then the person can become aware, or realize things, that actually contradict logic or scientific understanding, yet is completely real to them. There could be a person out there who actually thinks they are a glass of orange juice, and if perception is all we have.. what kind of fucked up reality is that?
You see, any talk we make about the way things are is actually talk about the way things have been in our conscious minds. This includes all of history, understandings of human nature and insights into the minds of other people. The subconscious and unconscious are mostly unknown and dangerous territories for us to enter in - some people call this the spirit world, fair enough.. but to me, that has a lot of subtle implications. When I think spirits, I think angels, demons, elves, fairies. People see these things on DMT, and some believe these things to have some kind of external reality. I've never done DMT but I can't help but think this is just more archetypes.
What is behind these orders of layers and levels? If there is no God, then surely it must be chaos all the way through and through? There is order in my mind, I am coherent to myself and hopefully to you - are we all insane? Whatever we are doing here, it sure is interesting and I enjoy having others to communicate with and spend time with.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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If insane people are the best proof against God, healthy people who strive to grow and learn and love and meditate are the best proof for God. Really it just tells me that reality is created primarily from imagination and belief, including the common perception of a stable material world. Yes, this has all been said before. But I'm bored so I thought I'd write out what I've been thinking about since a pretty dissociating experience two days ago.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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You see, any talk we make about the way things are is actually talk about the way things have been in our conscious minds.
I agree.
Whatever we are doing here, it sure is interesting and I enjoy having others to communicate with and spend time with.
Same conclusion I came to, especially if you wish to continue living and aren't the suicide type.We have to make the best of things in this world of ours.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843478 - 01/07/08 01:09 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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We have to make the best of things
We are not required to do any thing at all; nevermind the 'best'.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
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Last seen: 3 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
What is behind these orders of layers and levels?
Emptiness?
Quote:
reality is created primarily from imagination
If you're saying that we project ourselves onto phenomena, that we project intent and meaning onto others' words and actions and the goings on of the "reality" that we apprehend subjectively, I think I agree. But what about the phenomena themselves? Whose imagination are we talking about here??
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Not only do you not have to but you are unable to. Sorry, I forgot about you OC.:(
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843516 - 01/07/08 01:18 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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I'm glad you agree. On the other hand I am hopeful that there is a transcendental and completely simple truth which is underlying all this mind business, a reality which operates on it's own principles separate from the mind. However, experience tells me that the only constant is change. Eternity need not be proof of an implicit order but simply the dissociation from the construct of man made time.
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Dare I ask what you mean by insanity (and sanity)?
Assuming there is such thing, it would seem that this duality is a progressive liniarity. I think the best way to describe this, is to say it might be like time.
What if like time moving from past towards the future, we move from sanity to insanity. The point of this analogy is not to demonstrate which or what direction, but just that it is directional, liniar progression.
Progressive, liniar duality which emphasizes the absolute. (A progressive movement towards something).
different than:
Polar duality, which emphasizes relativity. (Ying Yang)
Disregaurding the social implications of each, I am paradoxically sold and unsold on both notions.
Buddhists will tell you, you are already in bliss, you are perfect at this moment, That everything is relative, and yet there are still teachings.
I believe awareness is liniarly progressive, and so you can understand why sanity seems to fall into this catagory.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Lion]
#7843549 - 01/07/08 01:26 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Lion said:
Quote:
What is behind these orders of layers and levels?
Emptiness?
Emptiness works. But emptiness leaves everything as it is, which means I am still just here with all of my various beliefs and programs, including my ideas about what emptiness entails. The mind thinks it can imagine emptiness and how everything fits into that. The mind couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion.
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reality is created primarily from imagination
If you're saying that we project ourselves onto phenomena, that we project intent and meaning onto others' words and actions and the goings on of the "reality" that we apprehend subjectively, I think I agree. But what about the phenomena themselves? Whose imagination are we talking about here??
You mean the events as not interpreted by the mind? I think past our interpretations is the subconscious and unconscious, which points me in the direction of saying that through our various reality tunnels we are co-creating an illusory reality together. We are the imagination of ourselves, collectively.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 3 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
Emptiness works. But emptiness leaves everything as it is, which means I am still just here with all of my various beliefs and programs, including my ideas about what emptiness entails. The mind thinks it can imagine emptiness and how everything fits into that. The mind couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion.
Why shouldn't everything be left just as it is? Just because small-mind thinks it can contain and "know" emptiness, does it follow that emptiness is not the source of small-mind?
Quote:
You mean the events as not interpreted by the mind? I think past our interpretations is the subconscious and unconscious, which points me in the direction of saying that through our various reality tunnels we are co-creating an illusory reality together. We are the imagination of ourselves, collectively.
:D Go us!
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I'm glad you agree. On the other hand I am hopeful that there is a transcendental and completely simple truth which is underlying all this mind business, a reality which operates on it's own principles separate from the mind. However, experience tells me that the only constant is change. Eternity need not be proof of an implicit order but simply the dissociation from the construct of man made time.
I'm also hoping for an aware and conscious universe. Even if there is one the personality construct I call me may never know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: daytripper23]
#7843605 - 01/07/08 01:39 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said: Dare I ask what you mean by insanity (and sanity)?
Assuming there is such thing, it would seem that this duality is a progressive liniarity. I think the best way to describe this, is to say it might be like time.
What if like time moving from past towards the future, we move from sanity to insanity. The point of this analogy is not to demonstrate which or what direction, but just that it is directional, liniar progression.
Progressive, liniar duality which emphasizes the absolute. (A progressive movement towards something).
different than:
Polar duality, which emphasizes relativity. (Ying Yang)
Disregaurding the social implications of each, I am paradoxically sold and unsold on both notions.
Buddhists will tell you, you are already in bliss, you are perfect at this moment, That everything is relative, and yet there are still teachings.
I believe awareness is liniarly progressive, and so you can understand why sanity seems to fall into this catagory.
Ah yes, very interesting and familiar thoughts. Awareness is awesome 
edit: what i am thinking about sanity is that it is being able to step outside of one's programming and see things from a transcendental perspective, past ying and yang. so it is hard for me to believe sanity exists, because i cannot be sure if, as you said, awareness is linearly progressive pointing towards an absolute. if sanity does exist, we have not yet found it. i don't know how one could function in this society if they were not experiencing relativity
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Edited by EternalCowabunga (01/07/08 02:05 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843612 - 01/07/08 01:40 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Icelander said: Not only do you not have to but you are unable to. Sorry, I forgot about you OC.:(
If it weren't for my iron lung and daily dialysis...
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843659 - 01/07/08 01:51 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I'm glad you agree. On the other hand I am hopeful that there is a transcendental and completely simple truth which is underlying all this mind business, a reality which operates on it's own principles separate from the mind. However, experience tells me that the only constant is change. Eternity need not be proof of an implicit order but simply the dissociation from the construct of man made time.
I'm also hoping for an aware and conscious universe. Even if there is one the personality construct I call me may never know.

Quote:
Why shouldn't everything be left just as it is? Just because small-mind thinks it can contain and "know" emptiness, does it follow that emptiness is not the source of small-mind?
I have no problem with leaving everything as it is, as everything just is what it is. Yet I say this while at the same time knowing that my mind continues to indulge in illusion and I am not able to simply "be" at all moments. Those who are able to leave everything as it is do not know the source of themselves, but they are aware of the paradox of being a self-reflective consciousness. If you ask yourself what you really mean when you say that emptiness is the source of small mind, then your mind will come up with an answer to what emptiness is. If you asked me to accept that the Universe is emptiness, it would be my mind accepting and imagining this. This is because I still largely controlled by my mind, and you are not talking to the part of me that would have to realize that - and in realizing that, truly, I would have to cease to be. What would be left over? It would still be awareness of an experience of being a personality. There is always awareness of something and then we die and we don't really know what happens then.
I think awareness is awesome and I think the reality we created isn't so bad, though we surely could be doing a lot better.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
Ever since I was little I wondered why most people in society seemed to act in similar ways and believed in the same things. I believe as children we are all "unsane" and are then become sane as we are socialized - some of us are more resistant to this process or more accepting of the programming. As I child I believe I intuited that this programming I was being fed was toxic and so I resisted it fairly strongly at first. I quickly realized I would need to start understanding "the way things worked" if I was going to survive in society.
I agree with you that children are magic and amazing. And that they have something that seems to sparkle beyond anything. But somehow I can't help to wonder if it is really intuition or the way a child is grown that makes him reluctant to those ideas. The more I think about it, the more I think it must be something that comes from the parent's attitude that's pushing some fight back buttons in the child. I think that from all that you evoked about your family situation until now, I can say that our situations are similar to some extent. And I took a LOT of time to analyze the way I grew up because I needed to solve a lot of issues that were pulling me back and kept me in fear and confusion. Like you, I was a child that always had the tendency to dream, to be in my own world and to dislike the way I was being addressed to. I spent time alone, not necessarily lonely. Where I am getting at is that I realized that most of my behavior was a normal psychological reaction to what I saw around. Children are NOT stupid, that's for sure, and they can tell if something comes from fear or not. I say fear because I think it's the first thing any living and conscious thing can recognize it since it's linked to survival and the need for protection. And it is known that children rely on protection and the feeling of safety. I think that this is something that I lacked of, I never felt safe near the apparent image of certainty my parents were trying to hard to emanate.  I guess that this is exactly what made me fight back to what I was bring said all the time, and for a long while I believed that I had the capacity to somehow be above that magically see their flaws. More and more I am brought to the belief that you can only do that through reasoning. That also goes for my notion of "insanity" - "The lack of reason produces monsters."
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7843951 - 01/07/08 03:01 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yes, that makes a lot of sense MushroomTrip. You are pretty much dead on with your assessment Especially about not feeling safe and dreaming alot.
I've started going to a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and hopefully I will gain a lot of insight into my childhood. Fear and confusion is still a large part of my life, as much as I have tried to convince myself and others that I've figured everything out
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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I think the urge to resist preceeds the sense of social norms being toxic; and the resistive urge arises as a territorial defensive reflex.
"destiny and love and god" are the kinds of things that are normitavely mysterious, which suggests that you are resisting the normative and engaging in it at the same time.
that also would be a normative resistance, i.e. to defend against and be engaged deeply (love hate...)
then you speak of layers and archetypes, as if they were separate or meant different things, while archetypes are core motifs that can be abstracted from layers (gestalts) and which can be used to link between gestalts (layers) during thought or memory or dreams.
I would urge you to return to your primary resistance and avoid thinking in terms of "destiny and love and god" while finding your way more freely through layers, gestalts and dimensions using the archetypes or motifs that can be abstracted from them (from your personal -humble- living moments and memories).
in this way you can find commonality between each living being; and artifice or pretense at understanding of "destiny and love and god" will be dust that settled and was easy to sweep away.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: redgreenvines]
#7844752 - 01/07/08 05:43 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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thanks redgreenvines, i see what you mean
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Yes, that makes a lot of sense MushroomTrip. You are pretty much dead on with your assessment Especially about not feeling safe and dreaming alot.
I've started going to a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and hopefully I will gain a lot of insight into my childhood. Fear and confusion is still a large part of my life, as much as I have tried to convince myself and others that I've figured everything out
Don't worry about it, we're all in the same situation. The good side of understanding what's generating your fears is that you learn to reason with them instead of instinctively fighting. Our instincts are our greatest enemies sometimes, because even if they deal with basic stuff, where we don't shed any light in there, things might look very distorted and therefore scary. I am still on the way to figuring it out and think that this road will never stop. But I begin to like it like that. The advantage of such a situation is that you're constantly finding new pieces and your anxiety becomes diffracted into small and playful confusions.  And this can be easily translated into curiosity if you look from the right angle. And from there the possibilities are unlimited. 
A psychiatrist might help to some extent, as long as you keep in mind that YOU will ultimately deal with your issues and take everything they say with a little grain of salt. After all, you're the only person that knows yourself the best.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7847495 - 01/08/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Ever since I was little I wondered why most people in society seemed to act in similar ways and believed in the same things. I believe as children we are all "unsane" and are then become sane as we are socialized - some of us are more resistant to this process or more accepting of the programming. As I child I believe I intuited that this programming I was being fed was toxic and so I resisted it fairly strongly at first. I quickly realized I would need to start understanding "the way things worked" if I was going to survive in society.
I agree with you that children are magic and amazing. And that they have something that seems to sparkle beyond anything. But somehow I can't help to wonder if it is really intuition or the way a child is grown that makes him reluctant to those ideas. The more I think about it, the more I think it must be something that comes from the parent's attitude that's pushing some fight back buttons in the child. I think that from all that you evoked about your family situation until now, I can say that our situations are similar to some extent. And I took a LOT of time to analyze the way I grew up because I needed to solve a lot of issues that were pulling me back and kept me in fear and confusion. Like you, I was a child that always had the tendency to dream, to be in my own world and to dislike the way I was being addressed to. I spent time alone, not necessarily lonely. Where I am getting at is that I realized that most of my behavior was a normal psychological reaction to what I saw around. Children are NOT stupid, that's for sure, and they can tell if something comes from fear or not. I say fear because I think it's the first thing any living and conscious thing can recognize it since it's linked to survival and the need for protection. And it is known that children rely on protection and the feeling of safety. I think that this is something that I lacked of, I never felt safe near the apparent image of certainty my parents were trying to hard to emanate.  I guess that this is exactly what made me fight back to what I was bring said all the time, and for a long while I believed that I had the capacity to somehow be above that magically see their flaws. More and more I am brought to the belief that you can only do that through reasoning. That also goes for my notion of "insanity" - "The lack of reason produces monsters."
Great post MT. I can relate and am drawing the same conclusions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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