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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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dissociation, sanity, society
#7843339 - 01/07/08 12:16 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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This is a complex topic so please bear with me as I try and work through these thoughts as I go along. Think of this as a kind of stream of consciousness which could later on develop into a philosophy...
Ever since I was little I wondered why most people in society seemed to act in similar ways and believed in the same things. I believe as children we are all "unsane" and are then become sane as we are socialized - some of us are more resistant to this process or more accepting of the programming. As I child I believe I intuited that this programming I was being fed was toxic and so I resisted it fairly strongly at first. I quickly realized I would need to start understanding "the way things worked" if I was going to survive in society. We all have to sacrifice our individuality to fit in. What is this individuality which sets us apart? I don't know if it ever existed in the first place; like a fractal that you could zoom out from forever.
I think about things like destiny and love and god. I am no longer sure if things are the way they are in society because that is the way it is suppose to be, or if we are just vehicles perpetuating these programs, and why we can't seem to step out of the programming. One part of me says that it is love that has allowed us to get this far and another part of me says that love is just another illusion and that what we think of love is a cultural construct, similar to time.
I think the best proof that there is no God is insane people, truly out of their head people. I don't mean people with a few delusions or have some obsessive compulsions; I'm talking about people whose perception of reality is completely and utterly foreign to the rational mind. If the mind becomes dissociated enough, then the person can become aware, or realize things, that actually contradict logic or scientific understanding, yet is completely real to them. There could be a person out there who actually thinks they are a glass of orange juice, and if perception is all we have.. what kind of fucked up reality is that?
You see, any talk we make about the way things are is actually talk about the way things have been in our conscious minds. This includes all of history, understandings of human nature and insights into the minds of other people. The subconscious and unconscious are mostly unknown and dangerous territories for us to enter in - some people call this the spirit world, fair enough.. but to me, that has a lot of subtle implications. When I think spirits, I think angels, demons, elves, fairies. People see these things on DMT, and some believe these things to have some kind of external reality. I've never done DMT but I can't help but think this is just more archetypes.
What is behind these orders of layers and levels? If there is no God, then surely it must be chaos all the way through and through? There is order in my mind, I am coherent to myself and hopefully to you - are we all insane? Whatever we are doing here, it sure is interesting and I enjoy having others to communicate with and spend time with.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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If insane people are the best proof against God, healthy people who strive to grow and learn and love and meditate are the best proof for God. Really it just tells me that reality is created primarily from imagination and belief, including the common perception of a stable material world. Yes, this has all been said before. But I'm bored so I thought I'd write out what I've been thinking about since a pretty dissociating experience two days ago.
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Icelander
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You see, any talk we make about the way things are is actually talk about the way things have been in our conscious minds.
I agree.
Whatever we are doing here, it sure is interesting and I enjoy having others to communicate with and spend time with.
Same conclusion I came to, especially if you wish to continue living and aren't the suicide type.We have to make the best of things in this world of ours.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843478 - 01/07/08 01:09 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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We have to make the best of things
We are not required to do any thing at all; nevermind the 'best'.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
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Quote:
What is behind these orders of layers and levels?
Emptiness?
Quote:
reality is created primarily from imagination
If you're saying that we project ourselves onto phenomena, that we project intent and meaning onto others' words and actions and the goings on of the "reality" that we apprehend subjectively, I think I agree. But what about the phenomena themselves? Whose imagination are we talking about here??
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Not only do you not have to but you are unable to. Sorry, I forgot about you OC.:(
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843516 - 01/07/08 01:18 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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I'm glad you agree. On the other hand I am hopeful that there is a transcendental and completely simple truth which is underlying all this mind business, a reality which operates on it's own principles separate from the mind. However, experience tells me that the only constant is change. Eternity need not be proof of an implicit order but simply the dissociation from the construct of man made time.
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daytripper23
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Dare I ask what you mean by insanity (and sanity)?
Assuming there is such thing, it would seem that this duality is a progressive liniarity. I think the best way to describe this, is to say it might be like time.
What if like time moving from past towards the future, we move from sanity to insanity. The point of this analogy is not to demonstrate which or what direction, but just that it is directional, liniar progression.
Progressive, liniar duality which emphasizes the absolute. (A progressive movement towards something).
different than:
Polar duality, which emphasizes relativity. (Ying Yang)
Disregaurding the social implications of each, I am paradoxically sold and unsold on both notions.
Buddhists will tell you, you are already in bliss, you are perfect at this moment, That everything is relative, and yet there are still teachings.
I believe awareness is liniarly progressive, and so you can understand why sanity seems to fall into this catagory.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Lion]
#7843549 - 01/07/08 01:26 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
What is behind these orders of layers and levels?
Emptiness?
Emptiness works. But emptiness leaves everything as it is, which means I am still just here with all of my various beliefs and programs, including my ideas about what emptiness entails. The mind thinks it can imagine emptiness and how everything fits into that. The mind couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion.
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reality is created primarily from imagination
If you're saying that we project ourselves onto phenomena, that we project intent and meaning onto others' words and actions and the goings on of the "reality" that we apprehend subjectively, I think I agree. But what about the phenomena themselves? Whose imagination are we talking about here??
You mean the events as not interpreted by the mind? I think past our interpretations is the subconscious and unconscious, which points me in the direction of saying that through our various reality tunnels we are co-creating an illusory reality together. We are the imagination of ourselves, collectively.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
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Quote:
Emptiness works. But emptiness leaves everything as it is, which means I am still just here with all of my various beliefs and programs, including my ideas about what emptiness entails. The mind thinks it can imagine emptiness and how everything fits into that. The mind couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion.
Why shouldn't everything be left just as it is? Just because small-mind thinks it can contain and "know" emptiness, does it follow that emptiness is not the source of small-mind?
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You mean the events as not interpreted by the mind? I think past our interpretations is the subconscious and unconscious, which points me in the direction of saying that through our various reality tunnels we are co-creating an illusory reality together. We are the imagination of ourselves, collectively.
:D Go us!
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I'm glad you agree. On the other hand I am hopeful that there is a transcendental and completely simple truth which is underlying all this mind business, a reality which operates on it's own principles separate from the mind. However, experience tells me that the only constant is change. Eternity need not be proof of an implicit order but simply the dissociation from the construct of man made time.
I'm also hoping for an aware and conscious universe. Even if there is one the personality construct I call me may never know.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: daytripper23]
#7843605 - 01/07/08 01:39 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said: Dare I ask what you mean by insanity (and sanity)?
Assuming there is such thing, it would seem that this duality is a progressive liniarity. I think the best way to describe this, is to say it might be like time.
What if like time moving from past towards the future, we move from sanity to insanity. The point of this analogy is not to demonstrate which or what direction, but just that it is directional, liniar progression.
Progressive, liniar duality which emphasizes the absolute. (A progressive movement towards something).
different than:
Polar duality, which emphasizes relativity. (Ying Yang)
Disregaurding the social implications of each, I am paradoxically sold and unsold on both notions.
Buddhists will tell you, you are already in bliss, you are perfect at this moment, That everything is relative, and yet there are still teachings.
I believe awareness is liniarly progressive, and so you can understand why sanity seems to fall into this catagory.
Ah yes, very interesting and familiar thoughts. Awareness is awesome 
edit: what i am thinking about sanity is that it is being able to step outside of one's programming and see things from a transcendental perspective, past ying and yang. so it is hard for me to believe sanity exists, because i cannot be sure if, as you said, awareness is linearly progressive pointing towards an absolute. if sanity does exist, we have not yet found it. i don't know how one could function in this society if they were not experiencing relativity
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Edited by EternalCowabunga (01/07/08 02:05 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843612 - 01/07/08 01:40 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Icelander said: Not only do you not have to but you are unable to. Sorry, I forgot about you OC.:(
If it weren't for my iron lung and daily dialysis...
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7843659 - 01/07/08 01:51 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I'm glad you agree. On the other hand I am hopeful that there is a transcendental and completely simple truth which is underlying all this mind business, a reality which operates on it's own principles separate from the mind. However, experience tells me that the only constant is change. Eternity need not be proof of an implicit order but simply the dissociation from the construct of man made time.
I'm also hoping for an aware and conscious universe. Even if there is one the personality construct I call me may never know.

Quote:
Why shouldn't everything be left just as it is? Just because small-mind thinks it can contain and "know" emptiness, does it follow that emptiness is not the source of small-mind?
I have no problem with leaving everything as it is, as everything just is what it is. Yet I say this while at the same time knowing that my mind continues to indulge in illusion and I am not able to simply "be" at all moments. Those who are able to leave everything as it is do not know the source of themselves, but they are aware of the paradox of being a self-reflective consciousness. If you ask yourself what you really mean when you say that emptiness is the source of small mind, then your mind will come up with an answer to what emptiness is. If you asked me to accept that the Universe is emptiness, it would be my mind accepting and imagining this. This is because I still largely controlled by my mind, and you are not talking to the part of me that would have to realize that - and in realizing that, truly, I would have to cease to be. What would be left over? It would still be awareness of an experience of being a personality. There is always awareness of something and then we die and we don't really know what happens then.
I think awareness is awesome and I think the reality we created isn't so bad, though we surely could be doing a lot better.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
Ever since I was little I wondered why most people in society seemed to act in similar ways and believed in the same things. I believe as children we are all "unsane" and are then become sane as we are socialized - some of us are more resistant to this process or more accepting of the programming. As I child I believe I intuited that this programming I was being fed was toxic and so I resisted it fairly strongly at first. I quickly realized I would need to start understanding "the way things worked" if I was going to survive in society.
I agree with you that children are magic and amazing. And that they have something that seems to sparkle beyond anything. But somehow I can't help to wonder if it is really intuition or the way a child is grown that makes him reluctant to those ideas. The more I think about it, the more I think it must be something that comes from the parent's attitude that's pushing some fight back buttons in the child. I think that from all that you evoked about your family situation until now, I can say that our situations are similar to some extent. And I took a LOT of time to analyze the way I grew up because I needed to solve a lot of issues that were pulling me back and kept me in fear and confusion. Like you, I was a child that always had the tendency to dream, to be in my own world and to dislike the way I was being addressed to. I spent time alone, not necessarily lonely. Where I am getting at is that I realized that most of my behavior was a normal psychological reaction to what I saw around. Children are NOT stupid, that's for sure, and they can tell if something comes from fear or not. I say fear because I think it's the first thing any living and conscious thing can recognize it since it's linked to survival and the need for protection. And it is known that children rely on protection and the feeling of safety. I think that this is something that I lacked of, I never felt safe near the apparent image of certainty my parents were trying to hard to emanate.  I guess that this is exactly what made me fight back to what I was bring said all the time, and for a long while I believed that I had the capacity to somehow be above that magically see their flaws. More and more I am brought to the belief that you can only do that through reasoning. That also goes for my notion of "insanity" - "The lack of reason produces monsters."
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7843951 - 01/07/08 03:01 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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Yes, that makes a lot of sense MushroomTrip. You are pretty much dead on with your assessment Especially about not feeling safe and dreaming alot.
I've started going to a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and hopefully I will gain a lot of insight into my childhood. Fear and confusion is still a large part of my life, as much as I have tried to convince myself and others that I've figured everything out
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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I think the urge to resist preceeds the sense of social norms being toxic; and the resistive urge arises as a territorial defensive reflex.
"destiny and love and god" are the kinds of things that are normitavely mysterious, which suggests that you are resisting the normative and engaging in it at the same time.
that also would be a normative resistance, i.e. to defend against and be engaged deeply (love hate...)
then you speak of layers and archetypes, as if they were separate or meant different things, while archetypes are core motifs that can be abstracted from layers (gestalts) and which can be used to link between gestalts (layers) during thought or memory or dreams.
I would urge you to return to your primary resistance and avoid thinking in terms of "destiny and love and god" while finding your way more freely through layers, gestalts and dimensions using the archetypes or motifs that can be abstracted from them (from your personal -humble- living moments and memories).
in this way you can find commonality between each living being; and artifice or pretense at understanding of "destiny and love and god" will be dust that settled and was easy to sweep away.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: redgreenvines]
#7844752 - 01/07/08 05:43 PM (16 years, 25 days ago) |
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thanks redgreenvines, i see what you mean
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Yes, that makes a lot of sense MushroomTrip. You are pretty much dead on with your assessment Especially about not feeling safe and dreaming alot.
I've started going to a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and hopefully I will gain a lot of insight into my childhood. Fear and confusion is still a large part of my life, as much as I have tried to convince myself and others that I've figured everything out
Don't worry about it, we're all in the same situation. The good side of understanding what's generating your fears is that you learn to reason with them instead of instinctively fighting. Our instincts are our greatest enemies sometimes, because even if they deal with basic stuff, where we don't shed any light in there, things might look very distorted and therefore scary. I am still on the way to figuring it out and think that this road will never stop. But I begin to like it like that. The advantage of such a situation is that you're constantly finding new pieces and your anxiety becomes diffracted into small and playful confusions.  And this can be easily translated into curiosity if you look from the right angle. And from there the possibilities are unlimited. 
A psychiatrist might help to some extent, as long as you keep in mind that YOU will ultimately deal with your issues and take everything they say with a little grain of salt. After all, you're the only person that knows yourself the best.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7847495 - 01/08/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Ever since I was little I wondered why most people in society seemed to act in similar ways and believed in the same things. I believe as children we are all "unsane" and are then become sane as we are socialized - some of us are more resistant to this process or more accepting of the programming. As I child I believe I intuited that this programming I was being fed was toxic and so I resisted it fairly strongly at first. I quickly realized I would need to start understanding "the way things worked" if I was going to survive in society.
I agree with you that children are magic and amazing. And that they have something that seems to sparkle beyond anything. But somehow I can't help to wonder if it is really intuition or the way a child is grown that makes him reluctant to those ideas. The more I think about it, the more I think it must be something that comes from the parent's attitude that's pushing some fight back buttons in the child. I think that from all that you evoked about your family situation until now, I can say that our situations are similar to some extent. And I took a LOT of time to analyze the way I grew up because I needed to solve a lot of issues that were pulling me back and kept me in fear and confusion. Like you, I was a child that always had the tendency to dream, to be in my own world and to dislike the way I was being addressed to. I spent time alone, not necessarily lonely. Where I am getting at is that I realized that most of my behavior was a normal psychological reaction to what I saw around. Children are NOT stupid, that's for sure, and they can tell if something comes from fear or not. I say fear because I think it's the first thing any living and conscious thing can recognize it since it's linked to survival and the need for protection. And it is known that children rely on protection and the feeling of safety. I think that this is something that I lacked of, I never felt safe near the apparent image of certainty my parents were trying to hard to emanate.  I guess that this is exactly what made me fight back to what I was bring said all the time, and for a long while I believed that I had the capacity to somehow be above that magically see their flaws. More and more I am brought to the belief that you can only do that through reasoning. That also goes for my notion of "insanity" - "The lack of reason produces monsters."
Great post MT. I can relate and am drawing the same conclusions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7847500 - 01/08/08 11:34 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Every time you use the word 'conclusion(s)' in a post, I get $0.25 in royalties.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Yes, that makes a lot of sense MushroomTrip. You are pretty much dead on with your assessment Especially about not feeling safe and dreaming alot.
I've started going to a psychiatrist for the first time in my life and hopefully I will gain a lot of insight into my childhood. Fear and confusion is still a large part of my life, as much as I have tried to convince myself and others that I've figured everything out
I would steer clear of psychiatrists myself and stick with therapists. I have a clear bias here. I think psychiatrists are nuts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7847511 - 01/08/08 11:38 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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I think she's a therapist actually.. I dunno, we just talk..wow I feel fucking terrible right now. Fuck DXM up it's stupid ass, what a stupid drug. Please anyone reading this, never do DXM. It's not worth it.
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Icelander
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It's not worth it for you. It's difficult to decide worth for others and advice like this isn't always worth much.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7847520 - 01/08/08 11:41 AM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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No, it really isn't worth it... really. Dissociative are nothing but bad news. For the last two days I've felt worse than any E crash or come down from any other drugs. What about huffing gas, could that be of any worth to someone?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
Please anyone reading this,
What message do you have for those not reading this?
Quote:
never do DXM.
What if I ACTUALLY have a cough?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Tell it to Lilly, author of the book on Metaprogramming.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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If you have a cough that's alright..
I read Lily and I do think that DXM gives some insight into programming and reality tunnels.. that was the basis of this thread, but I didn't really take anything valuable back with me except feeling like my soul has been sucked away
Have you tried DXM or Ketamine Icelander? Just curious
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Edited by EternalCowabunga (01/08/08 11:51 AM)
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EternalCowabunga
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Alright, I was a little hasty. I've had some good times and interesting revelations on DXM. Just know what you're getting into, and realize that this isn't something that is natural to your body in any way .
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justamonkey
Stranger



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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7847608 - 01/08/08 12:09 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Most people are crazy most of the time, but nobody is crazy all of the time, if you take the definition of insane to mean attempting to get different results from the same methods.
Look at all the weight loss products, get-rich quick schemes, and other cheesy crap out there. And that's just the obvious stuff. You want real lunatics? Look around, the whole planet's full of them, we're practically one gigantic Bell View. I mean, you would have to totally expunge the human mind (all of them) of social function and rewire them from the ground up to completely undermine the way the system works.
Society has been evolving for a long time, its not only as good as a living, breathing entity, its better. It will live as long as we do (collectively) and evolve to absorb and conform us.
Look at this forum, how many of you have changed your ideas and opinions based on what you've read here? Of coarse we are subject to the influences of our environment! What's necessary is to maintain that none of those ideas are any more relevant than the next, and to maintain, at all possible moments, the sort of awareness necessary to not only adapt to new ideas and thoughts, but to release those that become invalid to your current situation, immediately.
Children know about imitation and fear of rejection through us teaching it to them for scolding them for things that are 'socially' unacceptable because we are 'supposed' to.
Unless you are aware, you are just another cog in the machine. You aren't in control at all, you only think you are. Ultimately, if you fulfill all of your life's goals, what will it mean to you? This is hard to communicate because the social system makes the term happy so misconstrued. I'm trying to ask, are your goals, your goals? What have you chosen, and are you aware of why you chose it?
It is a closed system, it begins at birth and ends at death, each individual goes through it, and all maintain a varying degree of awareness of it as it happens. Ultimately the system finishes and the body dies, afterward we have no reference, but assuming that our ability to perceive is lost and our consciousness fades, what will we have left? Nothing.
This means, ultimately that we will remember nothing. Our actions will not matter to us because they will no longer be objectified to us, since we will no longer exist. The system has ended. We have ended with it. So then, what is important? Being rich? Married? Owning that nice house? Maybe.
To me, its kind of like this: Its not whether you win or lose, because you're dead, you know you will die. Its not even how you play the game, because you won't remember that either.
Society does a nifty job of escorting you from the beginning to the end without much fuss. My goal is to subvert societies limitations in every manner possible so I can grasp the whole of the experience, and live in the now as much as possible. Direct opposition is hard wired in to children, what I'm talking about is awareness. Perceiving as much of what is cause and effect as possible and adjusting accordingly. The elimination of pattern in such a way that will appear to be pattern, but in effect be whatever I choose. Disappearing into the clockwork gears around me, just another guy out there. Ever increasing the size of my comfort zone, flexing it like a muscle, stronger and more flexible, and able to take whatever I can throw at it, until the day I die, all while evaluating society and accepting the parts I like, and finding ways around the parts I don't.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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justamonkey
Stranger



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: justamonkey]
#7847626 - 01/08/08 12:13 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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DXM is interesting. I say give it a whirl, hell, if nothing else, you'll know what all the fuss is about. Besides, if it was that bad, it would be illegal...err...totally, not just against the directions of the label.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: justamonkey]
#7847709 - 01/08/08 12:36 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Right O Neo!
To me, its kind of like this: Its not whether you win or lose, because you're dead, you know you will die. Its not even how you play the game, because you won't remember that either.
Then what is it? It sounds to me from the rest of your post it is (for you) how you play the game. Really, what else is there?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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justamonkey
Stranger



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7847738 - 01/08/08 12:43 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Oh hell, I dunno. Really there's only playing I guess. Just goes to show, sometimes trying to use lots of fancy stuff doesn't get us very far.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: justamonkey]
#7847790 - 01/08/08 12:54 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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If death ends it then all there is only the experience. Most would like it to be enjoyable but it doesn't really matter at games end.
But
We don't know that death is the end and you have to take that into account as a warrior.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7847833 - 01/08/08 01:03 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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At least your death as a cease of existence for yourself is not the same thing for others. They will remember, and that's quite near as alive, as they do it in their living situations and expect you to give an outlook for them in their now (in their living imagination, at least ). In variant degrees, they will take a dead person (almost) as much valuable in their considerations as a living one.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7847844 - 01/08/08 01:05 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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What does that have to do with anything?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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justamonkey
Stranger



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7848108 - 01/08/08 02:01 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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I only consider others if it means an impact on me. I'm just selfish like that I guess...
I agree, Icelander. We don't know about death. All we know is that it is inevitable, and so is best put off until we are ready to embrace it, at least, for as long as possible (or desirable).
Just another challenge really, neither good nor bad, neither blessing nor curse.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7848287 - 01/08/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Just that our life will pass over our own experience. In other's remembrance. We may be dissociated to us, but not to society and vice versa. There inbetween lies sanity.
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machination
Stranger
Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 705
Loc: Hringhorni
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when you grow up, you're only allowed low doses of speed, opiates, and high high doses of dextromethorphan and a beer with supper
-------------------- "Have you not learned that your word is bond? Yes, my word is bond and bond is life, I shall give my life, before my word shall fail."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7848590 - 01/08/08 03:38 PM (16 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Just that our life will pass over our own experience. In other's remembrance. We may be dissociated to us, but not to society and vice versa. There inbetween lies sanity.
What? There in between lies sanity? Are you fucking insane?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Goose
Student of life



Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 246
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: justamonkey]
#7852194 - 01/09/08 02:51 AM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
justamonkey said: Most people are crazy most of the time, but nobody is crazy all of the time, if you take the definition of insane to mean attempting to get different results from the same methods.
Look at all the weight loss products, get-rich quick schemes, and other cheesy crap out there. And that's just the obvious stuff. You want real lunatics? Look around, the whole planet's full of them, we're practically one gigantic Bell View. I mean, you would have to totally expunge the human mind (all of them) of social function and rewire them from the ground up to completely undermine the way the system works.
Society has been evolving for a long time, its not only as good as a living, breathing entity, its better. It will live as long as we do (collectively) and evolve to absorb and conform us.
Look at this forum, how many of you have changed your ideas and opinions based on what you've read here? Of coarse we are subject to the influences of our environment! What's necessary is to maintain that none of those ideas are any more relevant than the next, and to maintain, at all possible moments, the sort of awareness necessary to not only adapt to new ideas and thoughts, but to release those that become invalid to your current situation, immediately.
Children know about imitation and fear of rejection through us teaching it to them for scolding them for things that are 'socially' unacceptable because we are 'supposed' to.
Unless you are aware, you are just another cog in the machine. You aren't in control at all, you only think you are. Ultimately, if you fulfill all of your life's goals, what will it mean to you? This is hard to communicate because the social system makes the term happy so misconstrued. I'm trying to ask, are your goals, your goals? What have you chosen, and are you aware of why you chose it?
It is a closed system, it begins at birth and ends at death, each individual goes through it, and all maintain a varying degree of awareness of it as it happens. Ultimately the system finishes and the body dies, afterward we have no reference, but assuming that our ability to perceive is lost and our consciousness fades, what will we have left? Nothing.
This means, ultimately that we will remember nothing. Our actions will not matter to us because they will no longer be objectified to us, since we will no longer exist. The system has ended. We have ended with it. So then, what is important? Being rich? Married? Owning that nice house? Maybe.
To me, its kind of like this: Its not whether you win or lose, because you're dead, you know you will die. Its not even how you play the game, because you won't remember that either.
Society does a nifty job of escorting you from the beginning to the end without much fuss. My goal is to subvert societies limitations in every manner possible so I can grasp the whole of the experience, and live in the now as much as possible. Direct opposition is hard wired in to children, what I'm talking about is awareness. Perceiving as much of what is cause and effect as possible and adjusting accordingly. The elimination of pattern in such a way that will appear to be pattern, but in effect be whatever I choose. Disappearing into the clockwork gears around me, just another guy out there. Ever increasing the size of my comfort zone, flexing it like a muscle, stronger and more flexible, and able to take whatever I can throw at it, until the day I die, all while evaluating society and accepting the parts I like, and finding ways around the parts I don't.
thats one of the best things ive read in a long time. very good.
-------------------- "i will study and prepare myself so that when my opportunity comes i will be ready" Abraham Lincoln
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: Icelander]
#7853026 - 01/09/08 10:48 AM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Just that our life will pass over our own experience. In other's remembrance. We may be dissociated to us, but not to society and vice versa. There inbetween lies sanity.
What? There in between lies sanity? Are you fucking insane?
Sure  If somebody only really does what he wants, without respect to his surroundings, society would call him insane. If somebody would only do what his surroundings expect from him, he would consider himself as insane.
So sanity is a little bit experienced insanity of society and oneself.
I think there's no real mental sane one in a society. Mental sanity is an illusion of conformity (to oneself and towards society).
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: dissociation, sanity, society [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7853041 - 01/09/08 10:52 AM (16 years, 23 days ago) |
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oh:D
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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