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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098925 - 04/26/05 12:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I didn't see your answer. Here, I'll make it easy and go step by step.

Part one:

Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip?

Hint: it's a Yes/No question.




.... Diploid... are you daft? What issues do you have with my statement?

The answer would be no, but I provided a full reason as to why. Reread my post, let me know what you have issues with. Please, their is no need to babystep through this bullshit, just make your point, your question isn't applicable to this situation as it's comparing apples to oranges.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4098965 - 04/26/05 01:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The answer would be no, but I provided a full reason as to why.

Alright, now that we've established that you won't tolerate being whipped as a penalty for speeding, let's get to your justification for hitting a child.

they are rational to the extent that they can justify their behavior (myself as a youngster) and attempt to get away with something that you full well know is wrong.

So, you're saying that if the child repeats the misbehavior despite being reasoned with, THEN it's alright to hit them.

Then using your own argument, whipping you on your SECOND speeding offense is alright. After all, you "full well know [speeding] is wrong", especially given the first speeding ticket (which didn't work).

This is YOUR argument. First talk, then if that doesn't work, hit.

Now the second question: Why doesn't this argument apply to you on your SECOND speeding offense??


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098989 - 04/26/05 01:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The answer would be no, but I provided a full reason as to why.

1) Alright, now that we've established that you won't tollerate being whipped as a penalty for speeding, let's get to your justification for hitting a child.

they are rational to the extent that they can justify their behavior (myself as a youngster) and attempt to get away with something that you full well know is wrong.

So, you're saying that if the child repeats the misbehavior dispite being reasoned with, THEN it's alright to hit them.

THen using your own argument, whipping you on your SECOND speeding offence is alright. After all, you "full well know [speeding] is wrong", especially given the first speeding ticket.

This is YOUR argument. First talk, then if that doesn't work, hit.

Now the second question: Why doesn't this argument apply to you on your SECOND speeding offence??




1) I did that a page back. Need help deciphering? I don't think that what I wrote was all that cryptic. 

2) :lol: you're assuming that your comparison is applicable to begin with. You could compare how I was as a child, to how I am now, and you'll notice a vast improvement in terms of reasoning capabilities. Use a better situation, or a better example please, unless you are implying that adult and child minds are fundamentally the same in regards to haveing the ability to reason. If you aren't making that assertion, drop your ridiculous example and contrive a new one.

Beyond that... no, that isn't my argument... attempting the same thing, the same way, for the same action... in the full recourse as a consequence to it that is, and expecting a different result; is the classical definition of insanity. Take your flawed ticket example for instance, you made no mention of rising penalities for further infringement, and tbh some of the consequences are worse then being spanked/whipped. 


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlinemygodisme
mommy

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 37
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099005 - 04/26/05 01:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

When you say "hitting a child" you are making the connotative statement that I would raise my hand and strike my child out of anger. I would never, EVER do that. She is my child and she is precious to me.

Hitting and spanking are NOT the same things. After we had discussed with her several times why it was very important that she tell us she was leaving the yard to go over to a friend's house, but she continued to not tell us, we made her stay in her room. The next day she repeated the behavior that was unacceptable, and she got spanked for it. She has never again repeated that behavior.

Where reasoning and time out/room-time grounding didn't work, the spanking did. What if it had not worked? We would have moved on to something more extreme, like making her write lines, and finally taking away going over to a friend's alltogether.

Your child may get traumatized over the idea of a spanking, but mine totally freaks out over the idea of writing lines; she starts going into major panic-attack mode, crying and screaming and freaking out for absolutely no reason whatsoever. What is the more humane punishment? Giving her three waps on the bottom and sending her to her room, or spending three hours forcing her to write lines, then calming her down again later?

Each parent has their own techniques that they are comfortable with... But don't you ever dare accuse me of hitting my child.


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4099021 - 04/26/05 01:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:yesnod: :handth:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099048 - 04/26/05 01:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I see. A child should be hit when they repeatedly misbehave, but you should keep getting tickets when you do the same thing.  :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4099052 - 04/26/05 01:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hitting and spanking are NOT the same things.

Oh, this must be some strange new usage of the words hitting and spanking that I hadn't previously been aware of.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 01:54 PM)

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Offlinemygodisme
mommy

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 37
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099078 - 04/26/05 01:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you had bothered to read you would see that I'm all for people getting spanked instead of getting tickets.

Let us go a step further and say that instead of just getting spanked, or even flogged, they should be horribly mutilated, with their eyes poked out, or their skin peeled off.

Because, as we all know, that is the exact same pain a child suffers when you smack 'em on the bottom a couple of times.


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099084 - 04/26/05 01:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You people keep going round and round with the same hypocritical argument.

1. Try talking to the child.

2. Repeat step one X times.

3. If it doesn't work after X talks, hit.

Why doesn't the above work for speeders?

Answer: because children are unable to reason like an adult who figure they better stop speeding or they'll get another ticket.

So if the child can't reason, how the hell do you expect it to understand how to behave.

You can't have it both ways. If the child can't reason, you certainly should not hit it for being unable to reason. If the child CAN reason, then you certainly can get them to behave by restricting their privileges.

In both cases, hitting is not required. How can you not see that you're behaving like bullies forcing conformity from a child with violence?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099095 - 04/26/05 01:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I see. A child should be hit when they repeatedly misbehave, but you should keep getting tickets when you do the same thing.  :sad:




http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099124 - 04/26/05 01:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You people keep going round and round with the same hypocritical argument.

1. Try talking to the child.

2. Repeat step one X times.

3. If it doesn't work after X talks, hit.

Why doesn't the above work for speeders?

Answer, because children are unable to reason like an adult and figure that they better stop speeding or they'll get another ticket.

So if the child can't reason, how the hell do you expect it to understand how to behave.

You can't have it both ways. If the child can't reason, you certainly should not hit it for being unable to reason. If the child CAN reason, then you certainly can get them to behave by restricting their privileges.

In both cases, hitting is not required.




Present a solution instead of being critical of a method.

Let me paint you a picture real quick;

When I was younger my family had a table made of solid wood (forget the type, it's irrelevant).

I drew on it, and was told not to.
I took a fork on it, and was told not to.
Both were done multiple times, and given reasonable reprimands. I tend to laugh at restrictions, and consequences even today... Their is always something else that can be done.  :wink:


--I was explained the reasoning why not to, as it was destroying the table as a result of it's aesthetic purpose, and if I wanted to do that, I could do it on something else outside.

One day, I go into the kitchen and take a corkscrew to the table, full well knowing that it would further destroy the table, I did it to test my parents. (I'm a defiant shithead at times :smirk:)

What would you do in this situation?

Punishments were given to me on all prior occasions, they were also stepped up in accordance with my efforts in light of the reasoning. Yet when I took a corkscrew to the table several times, and drilled some holes halfway through the wood glossed finish of the tabletop, it was completely uncalled for on my part. I knew it was wrong, I knew their would be consequences, and I tested it anyway, and got spanked as a result of it. Due to the spanking, I promptly stopped fucking with the table. Sometimes their just needs to be a greater deterrant to an action.

Let me know what you would do.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099149 - 04/26/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Present a solution instead of being critical of a method.

There IS no solution, dude. That's what you're not getting. You have to treat kids with the same respect you do adults and roll with the punches.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the right way to raise kids; unconditional love, positive regard, and support. That means NO HITTING.

Broken lamps, mud on the carpet, food fights, and all the rest of the shit comes with the territory. Deal with it. If you don't like that, don't have kids!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemygodisme
mommy

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 37
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099151 - 04/26/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Great link, thanks! Feeding time is over...


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099156 - 04/26/05 01:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Address my questions.

Their is also the notion of tough love, and it is necessary at times, especially in light of people that are reasonable, yet choose to overstep their boundaries to test the consequences.

Edit:
I was given a high level of respect as a child, and was raised to be very independant in regards to dealing with situations. I was given a hell of a lot of freedom, as I demonstrated that I could handle it. Respect is a two-sided coin, in the scenario that I presented, I'm the one that knowingly crossed over the imaginary line of respect; purposely might I add :lol:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 01:50 PM)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099167 - 04/26/05 01:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Present a solution instead of being critical of a method.

There IS no solution, dude. That's what you're not getting. You have to treat kids with the same respect you do adults and roll with the punches.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the right way to raise kids; unconditional love, positive regard, and support. That means NO HITTING.

Broken lamps, mud on the carpet, food fights, and all the rest of the shit comes with the territory. Deal with it. If you don't like that, don't have kids!




Yes, totally agreed!

Ironically, I have no interest in raising children.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099187 - 04/26/05 01:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Address my questions.

Tell ya what, I'll preempt your question by quoting you:

I drew on it, and was told not to.
I took a fork on it, and was told not to.
Both were done multiple times


And you know why all of the above? I'll tell you:

I was raised with spanking when I was a child :syringe:

I'm done with this thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099195 - 04/26/05 01:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, I see, more fallacies to distract from the question.

Thanks for debating, and leaving when you can't solve a situation that is real by your method.

Yes, the table incident is a true story :tongue:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099223 - 04/26/05 02:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Psychoactive, I see you want someone who advocates the non-violent method of discipline [which includes exclusion from verbal violence] to answer your question or two...

Try Jiggy on for a size:

"Anyone, go ahead and throw out hypotheticals of undesirable child behavior. I will show you what you will find in how that child is being raised that gave the right of way to that behavior.

These parents are like "Wah, help me to correct my bad child. I love it when they realize it's their bad parenting skills that need to be corrected."

Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.

I am not preaching from a pulpit that doesn't understand this dynamic inside and out from experience as I have raised a daughter who doesn't need punishing and was a kid who got beaten bloody with a belt for giggling when I was suppose to be falling asleep."





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4099294 - 04/26/05 02:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes this is true. I am in total agreement with jiggy on this one. Children should be treated with the same respect as adults, if you show respect to your child then you get respect back. My brother has raised his kid in this way, and not only do they have an excellent father son relationship but they are really good friends too. He's a great kid, and really bright too. If he gets in trouble the first person he talks to is his dad and they work through it together as a learning process. Its NEVER OK to hit a child, it conditions them to believe that violence is OK under certain circumstances (Seems to be the whole US Governments idea toward violence as well, makes you wonder if they were all hit/spanked as children). If you give a child just as much responsibility as he/she can handle, and build a good foundation of respect and openness from the start, then there is no problem, they will always know that they can talk to you under any circumstances and they will always have respect for you, because you respect them as a fellow and equal human being. This is my stance 100% on this issue, i will accept no 'But If's' or 'What If's' or 'If only i was hit i would have been a better behaved kid' because really its the responsibility of the parent to instill a sense of respect, responsibility and openness in the child in the first place so if/when they do fuck up (usually during adolescence), they will come and talk openly with the parent/s about the mistakes and confide in them openly because the foundations have been laid for such an open and respectful relationship.

Bad parenting is the cause of adolescent rebellion, because the adult up until that age treats the child as if they aren't responsible for their own existence and they neglect to lay the foundations of respect, openness, responsibility and much more importantly equinimity so the child automatically will reject and go against everything the parent says during that period and even worse will not confide in the parents when things go wrong and problems occur.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4099354 - 04/26/05 02:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Psychoactive, I see you want someone who advocates the non-violent method of discipline [which includes exclusion from verbal violence] to answer your question or two...

Try Jiggy on for a size:

"Anyone, go ahead and throw out hypotheticals of undesirable child behavior. I will show you what you will find in how that child is being raised that gave the right of way to that behavior.

These parents are like "Wah, help me to correct my bad child. I love it when they realize it's their bad parenting skills that need to be corrected."

Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.

I am not preaching from a pulpit that doesn't understand this dynamic inside and out from experience as I have raised a daughter who doesn't need punishing and was a kid who got beaten bloody with a belt for giggling when I was suppose to be falling asleep."








Defiance, and questioning authority isn't a result of my raising... it's a result of my personality. Not every behavioral aspect is influenced with how one is raised, some things come with the package.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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